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In my campaign I have an important NPC who is masquerading as a humanoid despite the fact that it is something else entirely. It is an intelligent and charismatic creature, and it's bestiary listing shows the alignment Chaotic Evil.
In it's history, this particular exemplar has never been Chaotic Evil - of that I am sure. It has committed evil acts though - let's say that at some point in the past it would have been reasonably considered Lawful Evil. Now, however, it has mellowed out and just wants to be left alone. It is still Lawful, and while not necessarily Good, is pretty solidly Neutral... but it still has some evil acts in its past, some of which it may not be all that remorseful over.
So - at some point I'm sure that the party cleric is going to cast "Detect Evil" on it.
What do I tell him? :P
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In my campaign I have an important NPC who is masquerading as a humanoid despite the fact that it is something else entirely. It is an intelligent and charismatic creature, and it's bestiary listing shows the alignment Chaotic Evil.
In it's history, this particular exemplar has never been Chaotic Evil - of that I am sure. It has committed evil acts though - let's say that at some point in the past it would have been reasonably considered Lawful Evil. Now, however, it has mellowed out and just wants to be left alone. It is still Lawful, and while not necessarily Good, is pretty solidly Neutral... but it still has some evil acts in its past, some of which it may not be all that remorseful over.
So - at some point I'm sure that the party cleric is going to cast "Detect Evil" on it.
What do I tell him? :P
Whatever you want to would be my guess. Story first.
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That they don't detect anything. I am guessing you are DMing, and this is YOUR game, if you say this creature is not evil then by Joe its not evil! Just because the Bestiary says its evil, doesn't mean it is in your game if you dont want it to be. If you think this will bother your players, keep the creature stats the same, but give it a new creature name/type. Bam, this new creature isn't CE, its LN! Besides, your players shouldn't be mining the Bestiary to look up stats about monsters anyway.
If the creature is Lawful Neutral, then they do not detect as Evil (and even there, only if they are evil and 5th+ level or have an aura).
To me, it doesn't matter if there are evil acts in their past, if they are no longer "evil", then they will not detect as such.
Neutral individuals can do evil acts, neutral acts or good acts, with out too many repercussions. If they do a lot of evil or good acts, they may face an alignment change, but to me, that is it.
A Know Alignment will say exactly what their alignment is and may be the best option for your player's cleric.
That they don't detect anything. I am guessing you are DMing, and this is YOUR game, if you say this creature is not evil then by Joe its not evil! Just because the Bestiary says its evil, doesn't mean it is in your game if you dont want it to be. If you think this will bother your players, keep the creature stats the same, but give it a new creature name/type. Bam, this new creature isn't CE, its LN! Besides, your players shouldn't be mining the Bestiary to look up stats about monsters anyway.
plus there are lots of tricks to fool alignment detection if you later decide to say he was always evil.
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I'm pretty sure this is not RAW, but when my players cast "Detect Evil," I try to give them a sense of how "greasy" the guy looks. So, in your case, I would describe him as having a faint evil aura. If you want to get really descriptive, you can describe it as looking "washed-out," to indicate that he was more evil in the past but has become less so.
Really, it's all flavor. The binary argument over whether something is evil or not only comes into play for various alignment-based effects (e.g. Smite Evil).
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Well, strictly by the rules, their past Alignments mean nothing. Redemption is very possible. So they'd probably test clean.
Thematically, I tend to agree with the rules. Detect Evil isn't a "Detect Murderer" spell, and it shouldn't be. I mean, murder mysteries would just fail as plots if it was. Nor should it instantly reveal that someone has a dark secret in their past, which are both likely results of it showing past evil acts in any way.
In my campaign I have an important NPC who is masquerading as a humanoid despite the fact that it is something else entirely. It is an intelligent and charismatic creature, and it's bestiary listing shows the alignment Chaotic Evil.
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So - at some point I'm sure that the party cleric is going to cast "Detect Evil" on it.
What do I tell him? :P
The spell is detect evil not detect bestiary alignment listing.
There are insufficient details for an answer.
From general principles ...
A creature has an alignment aura if it is supernatural (that is, hails from the outer planes like an archon or demon) and its plane is aligned. The creature's aura would reflect its plane.
A creature has an alignment aura if it has sufficient hit dice to merit one. This is a little more iffy, but I generally go with a dim aura starting around 6HD, to a strong one at 15HD, to overwhelming at 20+. The creature's aura reflects its alignment.
A creature has an alignment aura if it has a supernatural link (such as a cleric, oracle, or paladin).
How do these interact? It's not made perfectly clear. Generally these would all be in accord, so the problem doesn't arise. The confusion inherent in your question is understandable.
Ultimately, however, the purpose of such spells is to give the players information. Lacking active defenses against such divination - what would you (the DM) want them to know?
MI
Detect spells are a pain.
Depends on how you want to treat them, alignment in general, and how they apply to creatures.
Detect alignment works great in a Black and White, no grey, universe. Evil is evil, and good is good, and few creatures are the exception.
.................
Homebrew: If the creature, at the time of the casting, what it intends
Good = To help you out in some way.
Neutral = To eat you, because it is hungry. Or does not mean to help or harm.
Evil = Want to rip you limb to limb and play with your entrails. To hurt you in some way, physical, emotional, spiritual for reason other than hunger.
Over time, it can change.
Example:
You run across a old man (demon in disguise), and cast detect evil on him. It would not detect anything. Why, because the old man want to give you some information to help you defeat the local warlord that your after.
The old man means you no harm, and is trying to help you out (even if it is for his own reason, of getting rid of the competition).
Two weeks latter, when you have defeated the warlord. The detect alignment spell, might read something different. Depending on what the old man intends to do.
Anyway, how i run it.
Kind of like Detect Snare and Pits = By the time you know you need the spell, it is usually to late. Although every once in a while, you get lucky and detect it ahead of time.
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Ultimately, however, the purpose of such spells is to give the players information. Lacking active defenses against such divination - what would you (the DM) want them to know?
This is my thinking as well. My intention is to use it as an opportunity to offer some hints: the cleric will not detect it as evil per se, but will be able to sense the shadow of some old evil clinging to it. I think a successful Knowledge: Religion or Sense Motive roll could identify it as a creature weighed down by old, un-atoned-for sins.
Also, have to disagree with cibet44 about alignment text in the bestiary being absolute. An intelligent creature without a specific alignment subtype (as is the case here) can be any alignment, although it may be predisposed to a certain alignment due to its nature.
If your PCs are using Detect Evil, and the target is not evil, than they get...nothing.
Let them jump to conclusions as to why that might be. It may be easier for them to believe the "evil villain" has some sort of defense up, rather than believe he is "somewhat" reformed.
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In my campaign I have an important NPC who is masquerading as a humanoid despite the fact that it is something else entirely. It is an intelligent and charismatic creature, and it's bestiary listing shows the alignment Chaotic Evil.
In it's history, this particular exemplar has never been Chaotic Evil - of that I am sure. It has committed evil acts though - let's say that at some point in the past it would have been reasonably considered Lawful Evil. Now, however, it has mellowed out and just wants to be left alone. It is still Lawful, and while not necessarily Good, is pretty solidly Neutral... but it still has some evil acts in its past, some of which it may not be all that remorseful over.
So - at some point I'm sure that the party cleric is going to cast "Detect Evil" on it.
What do I tell him? :P
You need to decide on the creature's alignment, first of all. It will detect as evil if it is of evil alignment, Evil subtype, or otherwise has an evil aura. All of this assumes it sufficient HD.
If a 15HD creature would detect as evil as a result of having an Evil subtype or aura, but either isn't evil and doesn't like that aura, or if otherwise not wanting to detect as evil, then it might be seeking ways to mask that. From an NPC roleplay perspective, if knowledgeable and able, wands/potions/wondrous items providing undetectable alignment spell effects come to mind.
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The PC is standing next to a Harpy in a tree.
Player: "I cast Detect Evil and center the cone on that weird bird woman in the tree."DM: "OK... "You detect the presence of evil somewhere in your 60 foot cone"
Player: Dude, I just spend all the rounds I need to look, we don't need to go round by round for cryin' out loud; we ain't in combat -- what's up?
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I think a few people are misinterpreting how Detect Evil works.
The spell description in the PRD (or SRD) pretty much says what the spell does. It seems pretty clear to me so I don't understand the confusion.
The PC is standing next to a Harpy in a tree.
Round 1:
Player: "I cast Detect Evil and center the cone on that weird bird woman in the tree."
DM: "OK." Looks at the "alignment" of Harpy in stat block and sees "CE", says: "You detect the presence of evil somewhere in your 60 foot cone"
I don't think the confusion is about what the spell is supposed to do. The confusion (for me at least) is what to do about the alignment of a creature whose motivations and actions fall outside of the alignment description for that creature in the bestiary.
Lets say instead of the harpy in your example, the player is casting detect evil on a Lizardfolk chieftain. He is currently torturing a slave he captured earlier in the day for his own amusement, with the intent of sacrificing said slave on a blood altar to some demon or other.
If we go by the bestiary alone, then the player won't detect evil, because Lizardfolk are listed as neutral. Likewise, the player's holy longsword won't do anything special to the chief, and a "protection from evil" spell won't help the player at all against him.
That's the old argument about whether alignments are absolute or not, which really doesn't help me in this situation. I'm willing to make use of more subtle shadings of alignment - I'm just looking for new ideas on how to translate that into a spell effect.
Hah! It's like you're sitting at my table. I really do it round by round. I know, crazy.
The PC is standing next to a Harpy in a tree.
Player: "I cast Detect Evil and center the cone on that weird bird woman in the tree."DM: "OK... "You detect the presence of evil somewhere in your 60 foot cone"
Player: Dude, I just spend all the rounds I need to look, we don't need to go round by round for cryin' out loud; we ain't in combat -- what's up?
Outside of combat just time your description:
"you detect presence of evil... one faint aura of evil... its the creature sitting on the tree."You can safely assume that unless PC states that he does anything else he continues to concentrate upon the same area.
If we go by the bestiary alone, then the player won't detect evil, because Lizardfolk are listed as neutral. Likewise, the player's holy longsword won't do anything special to the chief, and a "protection from evil" spell won't help the player at all against him.
100% correct. The alignment mechanic says the Lizardfolk is not evil so the mechanical benefits of holy weapons and protection spells will not work on it.
The emotional intent of creatures is not mechanical.
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OK, folks. You can't have it both ways. If you are going to insist that because the Bestiary says lizardmen are neutral (just for the sake of argument, I seem to remember there is language in the Bestiary saying that most alignment entries are racial norms, and that individuals may vary) no lizardman will ever detect as evil or be subject to smite evil, etc., then you have to play them as neutral. You can't play them as baby-killing, torturing, demon-worshipping villains and then say, "they don't detect as evil." If you do, your players have every right to be confused and frustrated.
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So with alignment what it says in the stat block is how the creature acts the majority of the time. If how the creature acts the majority of the time is different then what it says in the stat block then the stat block should change, but this is not something that needs to be tracked by the DM or anyone, that's what the statistic is for. It's done for you, go with it.
Actually, I think you're misinterpreting that statistic. The alignment element of the stat block is meant to represent how the majority of creatures of this type act the majority of the time, not how a given instance of a creature acts the majority of the time. A given instance of a creature (assuming it is intelligent and does not have an alignment subtype) can be of any alignment. The alignment stat is merely a helpful guide to what the default alignment is, barring other considerations.
This is the a crucial difference between PCs and NPCs (and monsters) regarding alignment. With PCs, the player is controlling the moral choices of the character all the time so he needs to be conscious of what he is having his character do and adhere to the alignment or change it. With NPCs (or even more so, run of the mill monsters) the alignment stat tells you want the creature is doing the 99% of the time it is off screen. What it does in the 1% of the time the DM is controlling it is up to the DM but that doesn't mean its mechanics change.
Actually, if you want to get technical about it: since the GM has complete control of any NPC creature's backstory, the GM is effectively controlling any instance of a creature 100% of the time.
You are treating alignment as just another subtype, which is not what it is.
But all of this is really beside the point: I've already established that I am fine with this creature having an alignment that is somewhat ambiguous or in flux. What I'm trying to achieve is a way to apply the effects of an alignment based spell to that state of affairs.
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Lets say instead of the harpy in your example, the player is casting detect evil on a Lizardfolk chieftain. He is currently torturing a slave he captured earlier in the day for his own amusement, with the intent of sacrificing said slave on a blood altar to some demon or other.
If we go by the bestiary alone, then the player won't detect evil, because Lizardfolk are listed as neutral. Likewise, the player's holy longsword won't do anything special to the chief, and a "protection from evil" spell won't help the player at all against him.
The only relationship between the bestiary entry and this lizardfolk chieftain is whether he is typical. Each lizardfolk has his own alignment. They are typically neutral if you going by the book. Each individual lizardfolk detects per his own individual alignment. This one, given the sole information provided, screams CE. If you say he isn't and just acting that way today, that's up to you. Regardless, he is something, which you determine, and that is how he detects and is affected by spells, magic items, etc. His bestiary listing has nothing to do with that.
Edit: Since the spell says " Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell." Then his currently evil actions cause him to detect as evil, regardless of what his alignment is. His bestiary listing still doesn't matter.
We have a party with a Paladin that makes hiding evil folks particularly difficult, so I've gone over this a LOT.
But, first of all, decide on what the creatures CURRENT alignment is. You seem locked neatly into Lawful Neutral. Great. That's what he is now. Critters can vary.
His past misdeeds did not seem heinous enough (in a world-shaking, artifact-creating way) to have a lingering aura of evil. So he's Lawful Neutral.
But, despite comments to the contrary, INTENTION is important when the creature is not evil.
From the PRD:
"Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell."
It really doesn't change anything else. The spell describes what is detected, what it reads as and any effects it might require. If your Lawful Neutral is currently engaged in an attempt to murder an innocent, then he will detect as evil, with no mitigating circumstances (not 'evil, sorta).
That said, if he's not, then he's not. He won't come across as 'neutral' because the spell isn't know alignment, nor will he read as lawful or washed-out.
Also, keep in mind, that you are the DM. You can have him read however you want him to read. Strictly by RAW, he would not be evil (unless he had actively evil intent).
What actively evil intent is, well, that's for another day.
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Generally your alignment detects as... your alignment... Unless you've too few hit dice to detect as anything...
But, as has been pointed out, there are a few situations which can override that basic principle, the two most common being creatures with an alignment subtype (who also tend to be the ones which are most stuck in their Bestiary listed alignments - Devils are the embodiment of Law and Evil, for example - they don't choose to be that way, it's just their nature), and clerics and the like who detect as their deity's alignment, rather than their own (so a True Neutral cleric of Asmodeus still detects as Lawful Evil, because that's what the big guy is, and the cleric's a channel for the big guy's evil power).
As for the specific NPC's alignment - characters with aligments 'in flux' tend towards 'neutral' (which can be 'flip-flops between Good and Evil depending on the situation' just as much as it can be 'strives for balance in all things'), although having an alignment 'in flux' in the first place also tends to show Chaotic tendencies (so characters who are totally undecided on their alignments tend towards Chaotic Neutral).
When it comes to the Detect spells though, it's the guy's intentions at the time which count (as mentioned by others already)... unless one of the 'overriding' auras are in place (and there's always the possibility of detecting as more than one alignment too when an Aura clashes with the character's actual alignment...).
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Ultimately, however, the purpose of such spells is to give the players information. Lacking active defenses against such divination - what would you (the DM) want them to know?
This is my thinking as well. My intention is to use it as an opportunity to offer some hints: the cleric will not detect it as evil per se, but will be able to sense the shadow of some old evil clinging to it. I think a successful Knowledge: Religion or Sense Motive roll could identify it as a creature weighed down by old, un-atoned-for sins.Also, have to disagree with cibet44 about alignment text in the bestiary being absolute. An intelligent creature without a specific alignment subtype (as is the case here) can be any alignment, although it may be predisposed to a certain alignment due to its nature.
Giving Detect Evil the ability to "sense the shadow of some old evil clinging to it" is a dangerous road. It it worked that way once the players will aspect and pretend that it will always work that way.
So Detect Evil would become Detect Evil and un-atoned sins, making it more powerful, with the risk of generating problems in the future.
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I'm pretty sure this is not RAW, but when my players cast "Detect Evil," I try to give them a sense of how "greasy" the guy looks. So, in your case, I would describe him as having a faint evil aura. If you want to get really descriptive, you can describe it as looking "washed-out," to indicate that he was more evil in the past but has become less so.
Really, it's all flavor. The binary argument over whether something is evil or not only comes into play for various alignment-based effects (e.g. Smite Evil).
But detect evil only detects evil auras, from creatures with evil subtypes and evil clerics and antipaladins...a regular person does not show on the DE radar, even if they have the evil alignment...
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But detect evil only detects evil auras, from creatures with evil subtypes and evil clerics and antipaladins...a regular person does not show on the DE radar, even if they have the evil alignment...
It detects aligned creatures of 6+ hit dice. That's everyday evil folk. Less than 6 HD, you are correct.
