|
From Matt James, one of the DnD writers:
One of the greatest things that Wizards of the Coast has produced for 4e was that of character themes—like the ones found in the Dark Sun Campaign Guide. Character themes are extremely simple in design yet provide a powerful mechanic for shaping the game. I have thought a lot about themes in the past six months and have come the conclusion that their implementation has far wider reaching benefits across any number of sub-systems to the game.
Full article here. IMO, an intriguing piece that says a lot about the current system. Hmmm. Wonder how the thought behind it could be applied to Pathfinder? Maybe some sorta major environmental archtype (i.e., Water world archetype, desert world with psionics archtype, etc.)?
I do think that Themes were a great addition in Dark Sun. I'm not sure how easily it could be applied to Pathfinder. At least, not more easily that archetypes already handle this sort of things.
In 4E, all characters gain powers at the same rate. A level 5 cleric power should be roughly on par with a level 5 fighter power. So apply a theme where you can instead select a level 5 theme power and nothing is really shifted, balance wise.
Pathfinder classes don't have the same sort of modular powers. Classes should be balanced level to level, but can a fighter's bravery be swapped for uncanny dodge? What is a level of wizard spellcasting worth? Is it worth as much as a level of bardic casting?
Of course, if you want to just layer things on top, Themes for Pathfinder can be easier to do. If everyone is getting a bonus thing at levels 3, 7, and 9, it doesn't matter so much what the base class is.
EDIT: I should note that while I have glanced through Dark Sun, I do not own it yet. So I may be misremembering what all the aspects of themes are. It is high on my "Things to Buy When I Have More Money" list.
I agree that applying templates would be easier in 4e, but there may be some cross-game significance. It's a matter for finding the right way of implementing it. Anyways, thanks for the kind words.
I absolutely adored the use of Themes in Darksun. That said it often seems like a much high cliff to scale when talking about more generic D&D. While I think one could get away with 18 or whatever themes in Darksun being able to use themes for broader D&D is much harder because we don't need 18 themes we need a great many more just to have some shot of allowing everyone to pick something that is in the neighborhood of their character concept.
I absolutely adored the use of Themes in Darksun. That said it often seems like a much high cliff to scale when talking about more generic D&D. While I think one could get away with 18 or whatever themes in Darksun being able to use themes for broader D&D is much harder because we don't need 18 themes we need a great many more just to have some shot of allowing everyone to pick something that is in the neighborhood of their character concept.
I can see one book covering all the theme's you'd need for a generic campaign pretty easily actually i mean hell these 6 themes here- noble, peasant, outlaw, military, merchant, and tribesman cover damn near every basic social class of medieval society. Anything past that is just gravy.
|
I agree that applying templates would be easier in 4e, but there may be some cross-game significance. It's a matter for finding the right way of implementing it. Anyways, thanks for the kind words.
I ran an introduction to Dark Sun for our local group, and we all felt that the Themes template really took the game to the next level. I'm kind of disappointed to see that mechanic languish for over a year.
I can see one book covering all the theme's you'd need for a generic campaign pretty easily actually i mean hell these 6 themes here- noble, peasant, outlaw, military, merchant, and tribesman cover damn near every basic social class of medieval society. Anything past that is just gravy.
This is kind of what I was thinking, you could work in occupations as well, i.e. Entertainer, craftsman, farmer, hunter, guide.
Over time just about anything that is a generic background option (not the race specific ones) can become a Theme. You could add the racial ones as well, much like the racial paragons paths, or the racial paragon class levels in 3.5.
I can see one book covering all the theme's you'd need for a generic campaign pretty easily actually i mean hell these 6 themes here- noble, peasant, outlaw, military, merchant, and tribesman cover damn near every basic social class of medieval society. Anything past that is just gravy.This is kind of what I was thinking, you could work in occupations as well, i.e. Entertainer, craftsman, farmer, hunter, guide.
Over time just about anything that is a generic background option (not the race specific ones) can become a Theme. You could add the racial ones as well, much like the racial paragons paths, or the racial paragon class levels in 3.5.
The problem with taking the occupations routes is that WoTC seems hell bent on making a class for every profession.
The problem with taking the occupations routes is that WoTC seems hell bent on making a class for every profession.
I can see one book covering all the theme's you'd need for a generic campaign pretty easily actually i mean hell these 6 themes here- noble, peasant, outlaw, military, merchant, and tribesman cover damn near every basic social class of medieval society. Anything past that is just gravy.This is kind of what I was thinking, you could work in occupations as well, i.e. Entertainer, craftsman, farmer, hunter, guide.
Over time just about anything that is a generic background option (not the race specific ones) can become a Theme. You could add the racial ones as well, much like the racial paragons paths, or the racial paragon class levels in 3.5.
Pardon? I'm really interested to find out where this one came from.
The problem with taking the occupations routes is that WoTC seems hell bent on making a class for every profession.
I'd actually like it if this was true. I mean my issue with the themes (in a generic fantasy type world - not Dark Sun) is that there likely are not enough of them to adequately cover a reasonable number of backgrounds - sure you can do them very generically (peasant versus noble and a few others) but then I kind of don't see the point since that does not really allow one to get to the heart of designing a deep back story, or it does but mechanically its very superficial, if your a northern hunter that survived by bagging deer and trapping fish your 'a peasant' just the same as the guy who's background was street beggar and petty thief in the mean streets of some grandiose capital city. My issue is what are the chances that the generic peasant theme will really convey a feeling of having a background as a beggar or hunter? I'd say very low.
Hence I'd really like to see dozens. maybe a hundred or more themes but so far there is none except in Darksun.
Hi There,
I don't know a lot about 4'th ed, but this sounds interesting.
is there somewhere online, where I can about themes?
thanks,
GRU
Hi There,
I don't know a lot about 4'th ed, but this sounds interesting.
is there somewhere online, where I can about themes?thanks,
GRU
Here is the preview article on themes. It should be open content (oddly it seems to focus on one of the themes I felt was weakest).
Themes in Darksun covered both things like professions (Dune Trader) as well as positions (Templar to one of the despotic Sorcerer Kings (and this one included both current Templars and Ex-Templars) right up to things that are more character traits (Wilder - i.e. just some one with unusual access to psionic Wild Talents).
At its most basic level in 4E a theme is much like a race though it represents your background. It comes loaded with a certain amount of flavor representing what you are/where prior to becoming an adventurer. Depending on the theme you may still be whatever it is or it may be something in your past that influences you. Generally a theme gives some (usually not all that strong) mechanical advantage at 1st and then allows for a number of different options based on the theme in question at later levels.
So far we have not seen generic fantasy themes but when they where introduced in Dark Sun they where wildly popular so we probably eventually will.
Thanks, J.M.D
will read:-)
GRU
Themes, skill powers, feat powers, etc. work pretty well in 4E because the amount of resources available to a character are controlled. I am not sure it would be easy to port to another system, unless it had a similar mechanism to make character resources (themes, etc.) equal accross all classes.
I was actually hoping 4E would take it to the next level, and add proficiency powers to weapons, and armor, to add some unique properties of those items like tripping, damage resistance, disarming, etc.
I equated the archetypes to mimic the concept of class builds from 4E. Themes would be another layer on top of that to expand accross classes and/or archetypes. For example, you could have a ranger, barbarian, or fighter share the gladiator theme that is available in 4E Dark Sun.
Perhaps we will see that concept explored in the future releases of pathfinder.
|
|
I equated the archetypes to mimic the concept of class builds from 4E. Themes would be another layer on top of that to expand accross classes and/or archetypes. For example, you could have a ranger, barbarian, or fighter share the gladiator theme that is available in 4E Dark Sun.
Perhaps we will see that concept explored in the future releases of pathfinder.
I was thinking the same thing. Some sorta "environment" archetype that adds to the races and classes, e.g., everyone gets survival (desert), druids automatically add desert animals to their wild shape, rogue get desert-themed talents, etc.
There is any number of ways these 'templates' or 'themes' can be applied. I am happy to see this idea so well received.
There is any number of ways these 'templates' or 'themes' can be applied. I am happy to see this idea so well received.The Cobbler for 4e
Don't really care for the idea of having a template on top of a theme for a profession Themes should include (but not be limited to) professions IMO. This gets to the point of adding increasing complexity for ever less returns.
Don't really care for the idea of having a template on top of a theme for a profession Themes should include (but not be limited to) professions IMO. This gets to the point of adding increasing complexity for ever less returns.There is any number of ways these 'templates' or 'themes' can be applied. I am happy to see this idea so well received.The Cobbler for 4e
That works too, Jeremy. The underlying design principle here is that layers can provide a near limitless expansion of the game, instead of a rigid progression.