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Just wondering what details we have on them, if any.
Were the Shory among their number? Or were they composed of one of the individual Mwangi ethnicities?
Did the big split into the current ethnicities happen with Earthfall or before that disaster?
Might some of their number still be found in Southern Garund?
Figure they should get the same +2 to all stats "pureblood" Azlanti have as well. I'm not really a fan of giving ethnicities differing stat modifiers, but this does balance things as they stand now.
How dare you imply a race of humans on par with the Ancient Azlanti. You are a blasphemer, a cur, and a lover of cabbage.
That's big talk for a race that now consists of morlocks, gillmen, and a dead god.
Creative Director
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Azlant was the first human empire. Thassilon spun off of Azlant, but throughout the rest of the world, humanity was back in the stone age or just getting OUT of the stone age.
After Earthfall, other civilizations rose throughout the world. The Mwangi rose to power at this point; Jatembe was a powerful wizard among them, and his discoveries in magic is what eventually led to Shory; the Shory empire existed long after Azlant fell.
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Azlant was the first human empire. Thassilon spun off of Azlant, but throughout the rest of the world, humanity was back in the stone age or just getting OUT of the stone age.
After Earthfall, other civilizations rose throughout the world. The Mwangi rose to power at this point; Jatembe was a powerful wizard among them, and his discoveries in magic is what eventually led to Shory; the Shory empire existed long after Azlant fell.
...to which Mr. Jacobs then added: "Bam!"
I like Jatambe I wanted to know more. Unfortunately we were half way through a Mwangi Jungle Campaign when the Ap came out and decided restarting with Jungle again wouldnt be so much fun. So been curious if more info on him is in Serpent skull.
Jatembe appeared on the cover of Wayfinder 4...The prevalence of masks in the layout also refers to his Ten Magic Warriors.
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Azlant was the first human empire. Thassilon spun off of Azlant, but throughout the rest of the world, humanity was back in the stone age or just getting OUT of the stone age.
After Earthfall, other civilizations rose throughout the world. The Mwangi rose to power at this point; Jatembe was a powerful wizard among them, and his discoveries in magic is what eventually led to Shory; the Shory empire existed long after Azlant fell.
Ah, I thought the Shory were older than that. Thanks!
But I thought there were a few other big human civilizations across the world before Earthfall, besides just Azlant and their Thassilonian spin-off, like the Jistka.
The Mwangi being split into different ethnic groups happened before that event, didn't it? There were mentions of the unified Mwangi having a great civilization that was either destroyed or possibly even abandoned during some unknown terrible event in Heart of the Jungle, IIRC. Did that happen after Earthfall after all? I thought for certain that the Mwangi had been split by the time Jatembe and the Ten Magic Warriors came around.
How dare you imply a race of humans on par with the Ancient Azlanti. You are a blasphemer, a cur, and a lover of cabbage.
Hey, if light-skinned humans can have an ethnicity with that stat array, so can dark-skinned humans, not than any should be anywhere near common in modern Golarion.
The Mwangi being split into different ethnic groups happened before that event, didn't it? There were mentions of the unified Mwangi having a great civilization that was either destroyed or possibly even abandoned during some unknown terrible event in Heart of the Jungle, IIRC. Did that happen after Earthfall after all? I thought for certain that the Mwangi had been split by the time Jatembe and the Ten Magic Warriors came around.
Yeah there were some suggestions of an ancient pan-mwangi civilization in the area, and that Jatembe may have been from it or one of its survivor states after Earthfall. Their exact identity isn't really pinned down, and it may all be legends spun a dozen times over. In one instance they were described as not exactly pleasant people by some accounts -as in they made the Bekyar look like pacifist nature worshippers-.
The stuff that's directly linked to them (if they existed in some fashion) are the pre-Earthfall ruins and titanic fortifications near the Parinarsus Wall, and the lost city of Ird. Ird however is the source of the suggestions of their horrific nature, but Ird itself may have been a surviving fragment of that culture not representative of its original nature, and just how late of a successor state it may have been isn't known, but it was probably pretty early on in the Age of Anguish and the era of Jatembe.
It's -very- open to speculation, intentionally so. :)
is Wakena from the progenitors culture? or something after?
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Yeah there were some suggestions of an ancient pan-mwangi civilization in the area, and that Jatembe may have been from it or one of its survivor states after Earthfall.
Now this has me very interested! I'm really digging the idea of Jatembe being a figure much like Aroden, "last of his kind" and all that, but going down a very different path. Where Aroden elevated himself and became a pillar to others(one that got yoinked out later on), Jatembe just seems to have quietly stepped aside and out of sight.
Gonna have to go back and read up on the Parinarsus Wall and Ird again.
I´m pretty sure Walkena is not of the progenitor culture...
at least any more so than any other Mwangi culture descends from that.
Mzali was ruled by sun-kings similar to Osirionic Pharaohs, who were established at the END of the Age of Anguish, and I assume the Mzali themselves appeared in a similar time-scale.
The ruins directly associated with the Progenitor Culture date to PRE-Earthfall (1800 years before), from the Age of Ages and of course possibly into the Age of Darkness. That they are ´titanic´ along with it being stated that Cyclopes had a major presence in Garund (while they ruled all of Golarion) suggests a Cyclopes connection with the source of the Progenitor Culture (as with other Human cultures in Casmaron).
That Jatembe and his Ten Magic Warriors are said to have maintained culture in the aftermath of the Earthfall suggests they MAY have directly sprung from the Pregenitor Culture, or at least were born within a generation of two of it. ...But then he didn´t establish Magaambya until the Age of Anguish, meaning roughly 1000 years after Earthfall. That seems plenty of time for most all non-tribal civilization to disentigrate (consistent with portrayal of Age of Darkness), and a small band of magical adventurers could likely find it difficult to pass on an entire civilization wholesale, though with Magaambya they apparently successfuly formalized some fragment to pass on. But I assume he didn´t found Magaambya until then, because he COULDN´T, or had more pressing things to worry about, like survival, etc. (per Age of Darkness)
The Mzali Sun Kings COULD likewise have an even further removed connection to the Progenitor Culture (possibly thru Jatambe), but it seems likely they were more strongly linked to the Osirionic Pharaonic culture, given their apparent similarities. Then again, the similarities between the nameless 10 Magic Warriors and the nameless Risen Guard is somewhat interesting... :-) In any case, I don´t think Walkena is MORE representative of the Progenitors than really anybody else in Garund that we know of (Shory remnants are likely much closer, but themselves are probably quite far to begin with).
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...I´m not so sure I see the differences of Jatembe and Aroden´s character as being that different, from what we know. They both seem to have had extremely long life-spans for humans, though Aroden was apparently ´immortal´ while that isn´t claimed about Jatembe (yet since we don´t know how/when he met his end, or if he is even living elsewhere unbeknownst, that measure doesn´t seem definite either).
Jatembe likewise founded civilizational institutions (Magaambya, and the Shory descended from his influence apparently), the difference is just that Aroden didn´t do much that we know about for roughly 4000 more years during the Age of Anguish and Destiny (although it apparently qualified him for God-hood), until he founded Absalom starting a new Age.
The Age of Enthronement lasted 4600 years, and perhaps the Shory or other Jatembe-influenced civilizations didn´t last quite that long (?), but it seems like both men founded institutions to carry on and develop knowledge and civilization... Aroden´s Absalom just had the benefit of having the already well established Osirion in close proximity, not to mention magical kingdoms like Geb and Nex who had already had their war, creating a more stable and literate environment in which to develop, presumably. Osirion, Nex, and Geb almost certainly had SOME influence from Jatembe-influenced cultures, given we know the Shory ranged at least as far as the border of Osirion. A good part of Absalom seems heavily influenced by Osirion as well as Nex, etc, so there in fact may be a line of influence from Jatembe to Absalom, ´Aroden´s City State´.
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Now I'm really wondering about the possible angles to work with the similarities between Osirionian Pharaohs and Mzali Sun-Kings. (and throwing Sarenrae and Nergal in to complicate things...)
And I love the notion of Jatembe and the Ten Magic Warriors having an influence on Osirion's development.
I can´t wait to learn more about the Shory and these other civilizations/cultures residing in Southern (´off the map´) Garund... It seems highly likely that whoever the Shory were, they were just one branch off a cultural line linked to Jatembe, and other branches may well exist, or have existed, in Southern Garund (or elsewhere on Golarion).
YES. I really love the ideas of Dehrukani and Holomog.
And I love the notion of Jatembe and the Ten Magic Warriors having an influence on Osirion's development.
Then you might have fun with the line of speculation in the book that Jatembe and the mortal, pre-deity Nethys might have been the same person. True or not is left to the exercise of the DM and future books. :)
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Then you might have fun with the line of speculation in the book that Jatembe and the mortal, pre-deity Nethys might have been the same person. True or not is left to the exercise of the DM and future books. :)
Saywha?
I thought Nethys popped up before Jatembe's time...if that's not the case...
(heck, even if Nethys was around before Jatembe, it's still possible given the crazy level of magic he likely dealt with, temporal paradoxes and all that....or that Nethys became Jatembe became Nethys...OH MY HEAD)
I really dont think Nethys is Jatambe. Though somone in another thread i read a while ago suggested that in the spells that use 'the mage' (mages disjunction, etc) that Jatambe is the mage. ITs a neat thought though really just selective interpetation of Spell names without any actual connection to the lore.
Really all we know is Jatamble is a Gandalf Figure with a Massivly pro-Mwangi orientation, dealing with gods demons devils and angels to help them.
I dont really see this Evident in any of the current Divinities. Though maybe he simply went through the red door who knows. Though.. i guess that would make it hard to seal behind him wouldnt it?
I LOVE that myth/rumor... It seems like one that would even exist in-world in Golarion it self.
You don`t know who made that spell? THE MAGE, that`s who!! :-)
Browsing Golarion canon related to this, I came back upon Nergal, and thought I`d run it thru Wikipedia...
WOW, Highest aspect of Solar (Positive Energy in Golarion), commanding Undead and Pestilence, tied in with THE RED PLANET.
This guy had to be a fallen Angel or Diety, a fallen HEAD Angel, or something...
(OK, maybe rising to lead the most mighty Good nation/planet only to destroy it and throw in for the forces of Evil would count too)
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Has it ever been suggested that the Peacock Spirit worshipped in ancient Thassilon is the same individual as Melek Taus, the Peacock Angel, missing archon who had a big palace near the summit of 'mount celestia' in Heaven?
I honestly thought they were one and the same, but James Jacobs recently mentioned in the Lissala thread that the Peacock Spirit was pretty much evil.
I don't know if that precludes Melek Taus becoming the Peacock Spirit, but I kind of hope not, just because it's just interesting to have him as a missing and possibly somewhat troubling(to those unfamiliar with him) figure of good, especially when the real world Melek Taus is so complicated!
Then again, the real world Melek Taus is believed to have fallen and then redeemed himself...so maybe it still fits? He went missing from Heaven because he fell, became the Peacock Spirit, and is now somewhere and something else entirely on his journey back up to another state of good?
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I don't know if that precludes Melek Taus becoming the Peacock Spirit, but I kind of hope not, just because it's just interesting to have him as a missing and possibly somewhat troubling figure of good, especially when the real world Melek Taus is so complicated!
The Golarion Melek Taus is a her, so unless the Thassilonion Peacock Spirit is also a her, they are (probably) not the same individual.
Then again, 'she' might have patronized Runelord Xin, become the Peacock Spirit, been further corrupted by the excesses of the Runelords and their vices-as-virtues (being more focused on them bringing order and law and justice to the savage lands, and losing sight of them not being particularly good over time, until her own alignment suffered from excusing their excesses), and then, after Thassilon fell, and she found out that she wasn't welcome in Heaven anymore, fell the rest of the way and changed her name to something else...
I like mysteries. Hopefully nobody feels a need to make an official statement one way or the other about this.
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I don't know if that precludes Melek Taus becoming the Peacock Spirit, but I kind of hope not, just because it's just interesting to have him as a missing and possibly somewhat troubling figure of good, especially when the real world Melek Taus is so complicated!The Golarion Melek Taus is a her,
How did I miss that...gah, so much to re-read.
To further complicate matters...Ancient Thassilonian is noted as the first language on Golarion to have a "third gender". ;)
And agreed on keeping the mystery going.
Anyone noticed the weird names of the Lergeni in the city of Jaha, Mexcel Brance, Raynor Zendell, Martell Strendo. They don't sound that exotic, and I get the feeling the author is a fan of GRRM.