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Blog post from Gareth-Michael Skarka, owner of Adamant:
I know that a lot of people have been watching Adamant’s recent shift to an “app-pricing” model, where everything we released in PDF was priced at $1.99.
Well, I’m not going to bury the lede here: The experiment was a failure. I don’t believe that the model is a sustainable one in this market.
Thanks for sharing, Gareth.
If I recall, there was a bit of speculation at the beginning that it wouldn't be sustainable for pretty much the very reasons it wasn't sustainable. I was certainly curious. While many of our PDF only products are 1.49/1.99/2.99, the PDF versions of our print products are never lower than 7.99 - and they sell just fine for us at that price. In fact, most of them sell far, far better than our PDF only products.
Thanks for that link. I've been holding an internal debate about pricing for a while now...it's good to get some real-world feedback on the subject.
M
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Thats really weird. I've been thinking about making my PDF Short Story Collection (and my Poetry volume) available on line as a $1 PDF so folks could download cheap and take it into the local print shop and get it Printed and Comb-bound if they wanted a print version...
That it wasnt as popular as something with a higher price seems to suggest that there is a minimum 'price = quality' threshold.
Creative Director
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I would absolutely agree with the idea of a minimum "price = quality" threshold. For MP3s and phone apps, the fact that these marketplaces were invented with the 99 cent or otherwise low price point from more or less the start of that marketplace in question means that there's no pre-established perception of what something like that should cost.
For game materials, though, we've got over 3 decades of price expectation to get over, even including inflation. And traditionally, gaming products have not been that inexpensive.
As noted in the article, it's probably going to be difficult to nail down the variables behind these dynamics without a great deal of experiementation (which most can't afford to do - I know I can't).
As a consumer, though: I have a bunch of free apps on my iPod/iPad and a handful of $10 apps...but very few (if any, can't remember) $0.99 or $1.99 apps. I'm not sure why. One thing is that I have so much *crap* that it's very hard to be bothered with acquiring more (edit: in volume...I stick to stuff that catches my eye and, then, price doesn't matter).
In the gaming space, I can *afford* to buy $120 worth of $1.99 PDFs but I simply wouldn't get as much use out of them as buying $120 worth of Paizo AP volumes. I'd put them on my hard drive somewhere and forget about them. Something would have to look pretty tasty and usable before I'd buy it at $1.99 and, then, I'd likely just as well pay $7.99 or more for it.
M
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I would absolutely agree with the idea of a minimum "price = quality" threshold. For MP3s and phone apps, the fact that these marketplaces were invented with the 99 cent or otherwise low price point from more or less the start of that marketplace in question means that there's no pre-established perception of what something like that should cost.
For game materials, though, we've got over 3 decades of price expectation to get over, even including inflation. And traditionally, gaming products have not been that inexpensive.
Very true. And the big one is print. For me, when pdfs reach a certain size in number of pages and/or price, I'm expecting a physical book.
I've read some good posts recently from authors arguing that the relatively new idea of electronic versions of novels being super cheap (i.e. a few dollars) is terrible and injures the industry as a whole. They point out that the mp3 model doesn't work because writing a single song is far less work than writing a novel--as someone who's done both, I have to agree. Instead, they compare writing a novel to writing an album, which even at 99 cents per song is still costing you 10-12 bucks. The argument continues by saying that when you drive the price of art down too far, you can no longer sustain any artists except for those with massive name cred and distribution. Simultaneously, you devalue the art itself--if a painting only cost you two dollars, do you value it as much as if you paid $2000?
I think a lot of the same ideas apply to gaming.
I would absolutely agree with the idea of a minimum "price = quality" threshold. For MP3s and phone apps, the fact that these marketplaces were invented with the 99 cent or otherwise low price point from more or less the start of that marketplace in question means that there's no pre-established perception of what something like that should cost.
For game materials, though, we've got over 3 decades of price expectation to get over, even including inflation. And traditionally, gaming products have not been that inexpensive.
I agree. When I see a gaming product going for $1.25 or $1.50, I have something of an immediate assumption that it's cheap junk thrown together without a lot of investment. That may or may not be true, but it's a matter of threshold price - sort of like how you "know" that any toy from a dollar store is generally going to be terrible.
I think what it all boils down to is that you can't charge less for a piece than what you put into it - you have to charge a price you can make your money back on, with a reasonable number of sales. PDFs make that point lower, but they don't eliminate it.
Size of audience applies as well. You can sell a million-plus copies of some hokey cutesy app at $0.99 but you can't sell the same number of game PDFs (Steve Jackon's "Gold" level is 100k units, right?) You just can't make up the price difference with volume.
M
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I've read some good posts recently from authors arguing that the relatively new idea of electronic versions of novels being super cheap (i.e. a few dollars) is terrible and injures the industry as a whole. They point out that the mp3 model doesn't work because writing a single song is far less work than writing a novel--as someone who's done both, I have to agree. Instead, they compare writing a novel to writing an album, which even at 99 cents per song is still costing you 10-12 bucks. The argument continues by saying that when you drive the price of art down too far, you can no longer sustain any artists except for those with massive name cred and distribution. Simultaneously, you devalue the art itself--if a painting only cost you two dollars, do you value it as much as if you paid $2000?
I think a lot of the same ideas apply to gaming.
Understood. But does the public care? American economics works with a "throwaway" mentality, always striving for the next big thing wherever it's a book, music, or game. How long would Paizo survive if gaming groups just purchased the Core book, one of the bestiaries, and (optionally) the GM's book, and strictly relied on their own imaginations for adventures? (BTW, heart your avatar. What is it, exactly, though?)
One thing you have to remember with companies like Adamant vs Pathfinder 3pp is that adamant was selling things like the icons core rule book for $2. That's a bit overboard in the longrun. If the corebook cost the same as a 3 pace supplement, why buy the supplement.
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I agree. When I see a gaming product going for $1.25 or $1.50, I have something of an immediate assumption that it's cheap junk thrown together without a lot of investment. That may or may not be true, but it's a matter of threshold price - sort of like how you "know" that any toy from a dollar store is generally going to be terrible.I would absolutely agree with the idea of a minimum "price = quality" threshold. For MP3s and phone apps, the fact that these marketplaces were invented with the 99 cent or otherwise low price point from more or less the start of that marketplace in question means that there's no pre-established perception of what something like that should cost.
For game materials, though, we've got over 3 decades of price expectation to get over, even including inflation. And traditionally, gaming products have not been that inexpensive.
For me, it's based on the reputation of the company. I'd immediately be suspicious if it's from Paizo or WotC. But for a new startup? I'd be willing to give them a chance at such a price, justifying that I lost little if it's a POS.
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One thing you have to remember with companies like Adamant vs Pathfinder 3pp is that adamant was selling things like the icons core rule book for $2. That's a bit overboard in the longrun. If the corebook cost the same as a 3 pace supplement, why buy the supplement.
Adamant's strategy could be similar to Pinnacle selling its Savage World core book for $9.99 (and yes, that's print) but its supps for easily three, four times that amount.
I agree. When I see a gaming product going for $1.25 or $1.50, I have something of an immediate assumption that it's cheap junk thrown together without a lot of investment.
Noted. Ok, soI'm going to be making some changes to upcoming products...
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Noted. Ok, soI'm going to be making some changes to upcoming products...
I agree. When I see a gaming product going for $1.25 or $1.50, I have something of an immediate assumption that it's cheap junk thrown together without a lot of investment.
Ah, well. Was considering checking out your products....
(BTW, heart your avatar. What is it, exactly, though?)
Sutter's avatar is the carbuncle from AP #31, "Kingmaker: Stolen Land".
Noted. Ok, soI'm going to be making some changes to upcoming products...
I agree. When I see a gaming product going for $1.25 or $1.50, I have something of an immediate assumption that it's cheap junk thrown together without a lot of investment.
Now, mind you, products that come out for $1.99 are obviously brilliant masterworks that everyone should own.
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Now, mind you, products that come out for $1.99 are obviously brilliant masterworks that everyone should own.Noted. Ok, soI'm going to be making some changes to upcoming products...
I agree. When I see a gaming product going for $1.25 or $1.50, I have something of an immediate assumption that it's cheap junk thrown together without a lot of investment.
LOL
Now, mind you, products that come out for $1.99 are obviously brilliant masterworks that everyone should own.Actually, Super Genius Games has a slew of titles for $2.99 that are definitely worth owning.
I know, I've got a few of them.
LOLNow, mind you, products that come out for $1.99 are obviously brilliant masterworks that everyone should own.Noted. Ok, soI'm going to be making some changes to upcoming products...
I agree. When I see a gaming product going for $1.25 or $1.50, I have something of an immediate assumption that it's cheap junk thrown together without a lot of investment.
In all seriousness, a lot of it comes down to page count. 4WFG's 20 page and less PDFs are generally 2.99 or less. Once it starts pushing past 20 pages (and few of our PDF only titles do) our price goes up.
Now, mind you, products that come out for $1.99 are obviously brilliant masterworks that everyone should own.Noted. Ok, soI'm going to be making some changes to upcoming products...
I agree. When I see a gaming product going for $1.25 or $1.50, I have something of an immediate assumption that it's cheap junk thrown together without a lot of investment.
1.99 it is then... ;)
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In all seriousness, a lot of it comes down to page count. 4WFG's 20 page and less PDFs are generally 2.99 or less. Once it starts pushing past 20 pages (and few of our PDF only titles do) our price goes up.LOLNow, mind you, products that come out for $1.99 are obviously brilliant masterworks that everyone should own.Noted. Ok, soI'm going to be making some changes to upcoming products...
I agree. When I see a gaming product going for $1.25 or $1.50, I have something of an immediate assumption that it's cheap junk thrown together without a lot of investment.
My short stories is 107 pages (granted they are 4"x6" Card with smallest font size) so that kind of reduces them down to pocket sized books.
The real issue that no one seems to want to talk about is the number of customers for RPG PDFs. The numbers of selling PDFs are still very small. Most don't sell more than 200 copies in the product's life time. iTunes doesn't have this issue with millions of customers purchasing "cheap" products. I give Gareth a lot of credit in attempting something like this.
The real issue that no one seems to want to talk about is the number of customers for RPG PDFs. The numbers of selling PDFs are still very small. Most don't sell more than 200 copies in the product's life time. iTunes doesn't have this issue with millions of customers purchasing "cheap" products. I give Gareth a lot of credit in attempting something like this.
are you just assuming other 3PPs sales are similar to yours?
Yeah, we'll never have the number of customers that purchase iPhone/iPad or Android or Blackberry apps, but we'll still always have customers. New gamers come into the fold every day, and long-time gamers look for something they've never tried every day. While most of our PDF-only products have sold around 100 each, a significant number of sold around 200, and a few have sold over 300. And every time I think it's time to retire one or two of our oldest PDFs (which sell the least), someone comes along and buys 2 or 3 of them, so I leave them up.
And when it comes to the PDF version of our print books, all but one has sold over 200 and one is fast approaching twice that number. I don't expect to have the sales volume of an app - no matter what I put my pricing at - but I do expect that we'll always sell products unless RPGs suddenly and completely vanish.
Gee would your highest selling one be Luven's? :)
Luven's is actually #2 for us, at just under 300 PDFs sold. Arcane Magic - our very first print book - is #1 still, and is approaching 400 PDFs sold.
Gee would your highest selling one be Luven's? :)Luven's is actually #2 for us, at just under 300 PDFs sold. Arcane Magic - our very first print book - is #1 still, and is approaching 400 PDFs sold.
got a ? about that... how long has that book/PDF been out?
Really? I am honestly a little surprised Luven's hasn't overcome it in sales.
It's getting there. I expect it will surpass Arcane Magic late this year, even if the sales slow down.
got a ? about that... how long has that book/PDF been out?Gee would your highest selling one be Luven's? :)Luven's is actually #2 for us, at just under 300 PDFs sold. Arcane Magic - our very first print book - is #1 still, and is approaching 400 PDFs sold.
The Book of Arcane Magic was released on August 13th, 2009.
got a ? about that... how long has that book/PDF been out?Gee would your highest selling one be Luven's? :)Luven's is actually #2 for us, at just under 300 PDFs sold. Arcane Magic - our very first print book - is #1 still, and is approaching 400 PDFs sold.
The Book of Arcane Magic was released in August 2009.
Luven Lightfinger's Gear & Treasure Shop was released in February 2010.
The numbers of selling PDFs are still very small. Most don't sell more than 200 copies in the product's life time.are you just assuming other 3PPs sales are similar to yours?
He's got a point. There's some fluctuation, but I doubt any 3PP get out of the 3 digits very often. At least, not without PDF with subscription like Kobold Quarterly. Those aren't exactly PDF only sales though.
I'm curious how Print/PDF bundles like Psionics Unleashed or Coliseum Morpheuon did for sales.
are you just assuming other 3PPs sales are similar to yours?
After 10 years of selling PDFs, I know what sales look like on products. The more products available for a system, the fewer sales you make and vice versa. The larger name companies (WOTC or Paizo) might not follow this formula, but just about all 3PP do.
Really? I am honestly a little surprised Luven's hasn't overcome it in sales.Gee would your highest selling one be Luven's? :)Luven's is actually #2 for us, at just under 300 PDFs sold. Arcane Magic - our very first print book - is #1 still, and is approaching 400 PDFs sold.
I quite like Luven's. It's the sex-ay cover automaton and its potential that got me interested. =)
I'd MUCH rather see things priced at a level that is sustainable for the people who make them. I've been doing this long enough to remember TSR going under because they had a lot of great gamers and very few people who understood business.
Let's not do that again.
And I REALLY do not want to pay 1.99 for each chapter of a book. That's like buying bread by the slice, it's just ridiculous.
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While it's true that some sectors of the American market emphasize cheap and mass produced, it's not everything. Check the prices for new video games. The high-end games been fairly expensive all along, and that industry seems to be ok.
Check the prices for new video games. The high-end games been fairly expensive all along, and that industry seems to be ok.
Only at the very top end, I think. The biggest titles keep breaking records but the B and C level titles hit the shelves and are quickly discounted. In-store sales of "casual games" have tanked, hit first by "app-priced" games on iTunes and such and lately (hardest) by free gaming on Facebook.
M
I'm curious how Print/PDF bundles like Psionics Unleashed or Coliseum Morpheuon did for sales.
Roughly speaking, our bundles sold at a 6:1 better ratio than pure print, although our PDF-only version sold at a 3:1 ratio to the bundle.
To me, that means we'll definitely continue the bundle format. I know there were at least a few people who bought BECAUSE we had the bundle, and with numbers at that level, we'd be stupid not to continue the model.
As for the topic of the thread - I applaud GMS for the experiment, but I can't say I'm surprised by the outcome. Oddly, I wouldn't have been all that surprised if it was a success, either. The market has changed so much, especially with the massive success of the Apple Store, Android Market, and other such systems.
But, I have found that price = quality is a very real philosophy. And as long as your product quality matches (or is close to) the expected quality, then you don't have a problem.
We actually tried a few times underpricing products just to try to get more market penetration, without lowering quality standards, and it seemed like sales were weaker than if we had priced it higher.
Roughly speaking, our bundles sold at a 6:1 better ratio than pure print, although our PDF-only version sold at a 3:1 ratio to the bundle.
To me, that means we'll definitely continue the bundle format. I know there were at least a few people who bought BECAUSE we had the bundle, and with numbers at that level, we'd be stupid not to continue the model.
I pay attention greatly to those who offer the book + PDF bundle at a discounted rate. I like the PDF as a convenience where everything is centralized in one location for a quick reference, but I do not want to read from it as a tablet is not conducive to me right now for purely a fiscal reason and despite its convenience, it's hard for me to discard the purely organic feel of paging through a book.
Knowing you'll be continuing this route, I'm hoping that Third Dawn, the Bestiary, and the Expanded books will be offered in similar bundled formats. =)
Knowing you'll be continuing this route, I'm hoping that Third Dawn, the Bestiary, and the Expanded books will be offered in similar bundled formats. =)
Anything that's going to be in print from now on will have a Print + PDF bundle option going forward.
We're still working to get that option up at the RPGNow / DriveThruRPG sites for Psionics Unleashed, but you can rest assured that if it's in print, it'll have the bundle option.
are you just assuming other 3PPs sales are similar to yours?After 10 years of selling PDFs, I know what sales look like on products. The more products available for a system, the fewer sales you make and vice versa. The larger name companies (WOTC or Paizo) might not follow this formula, but just about all 3PP do.
Yes, you have been selling for 10 years... YOU
I'm sure there isn't a whole lot of variation because it is a smaller market but still.. you can't base an entire industry (well, entire niche industry) off of YOUR sales.Especially when there are a pretty decent number of reviews on here with 3 stars.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Knowing you'll be continuing this route, I'm hoping that Third Dawn, the Bestiary, and the Expanded books will be offered in similar bundled formats. =)Anything that's going to be in print from now on will have a Print + PDF bundle option going forward.
We're still working to get that option up at the RPGNow / DriveThruRPG sites for Psionics Unleashed, but you can rest assured that if it's in print, it'll have the bundle option.
This is good news for me (bad for my wallet). I enjoy print + PDF for the same reasons above. I can read my PDFs at work between calls, quickly pull up the copy to search a point for a message board post, C&P into notes, etc.
I prefer the book to read in my chair, at the gaming table, or in the loo for that matter.
Knowing you'll be continuing this route, I'm hoping that Third Dawn, the Bestiary, and the Expanded books will be offered in similar bundled formats. =)Anything that's going to be in print from now on will have a Print + PDF bundle option going forward.
We're still working to get that option up at the RPGNow / DriveThruRPG sites for Psionics Unleashed, but you can rest assured that if it's in print, it'll have the bundle option.
This is good news for me (bad for my wallet). I enjoy print + PDF for the same reasons above. I can read my PDFs at work between calls, quickly pull up the copy to search a point for a message board post, C&P into notes, etc.
I prefer the book to read in my chair, at the gaming table, or in the loo for that matter.
Exactly, PDFs are great for reference and are easily stored on a thumb drive, but there's nothing like the feel of gamebook in your hand.
Exactly, PDFs are great for reference and are easily stored on a thumb drive, but there's nothing like the feel of gamebook in your hand.I can read my PDFs at work between calls, quickly pull up the copy to search a point for a message board post, C&P into notes, etc.
I prefer the book to read in my chair, at the gaming table, or in the loo for that matter.
Me too. /Dittohead