Minor and Major magic (Rogue talents)

[dnjscott]

Hey all,

Any suggestions for the best spells to pick for these talents? I was leaning towards Acid splash (ranged touch + sneak attack is nice) and shield (AC boost stackable with everything is nice).

Am I missing something awesome? It is a pretty optimized group and most people are casters so I think I am safe in trying to get the most out of my 2 / day.

[Deadmanwalking]

Vanish is really cool, but I'd actually go the same route as you. Especially if Two-Weapon Fighting.

Make sure to grab Dispelling Attack at 10th level. It's so awesome that only the Minor/Major Magic prerequisite keeps everyone from grabbing it.

[Blave]

Never play rogues myself, but chill touch seems like a great way to hit with many sneak attacks against enemies with high AC and/or DR.

[Lyrax]

Vanish is nice for invisibility.
True Strike is nice for sneak-attacking concealed targets.
Chill Touch and Acid Splash are nice for sneak-attacking enemies with high AC or DR.
Ghost Sound, Ventriloquism, and Silent Image are great for creative tomfoolery.
Detect Magic is necessary in every party. If your party doesn't have it, take it.
Message can really help communications in the party.

[dnjscott]

Wow, 2 / day gaining up to 8 touch attacks is nice! Much more usage than you get from shield, actually.

I'll look at the utility spells, too. I have some worry that the Oracle, Mystic Theurge, and Summoner have this area well-covered, tho.

Definetely planning on dispelling attack - it only works on buffs, though, not items, correct?

[Deadmanwalking]

dnjscott wrote:

Wow, 2 / day gaining up to 8 touch attacks is nice! Much more usage than you get from shield, actually.

Grab a Wand of Shield for when you need it then, UMD for the win. That's actually quite a bit better since the wand is cheap and lasts a full fight, while it'd only give you one Chill Touch.

dnjscott wrote:

Definetely planning on dispelling attack - it only works on buffs, though, not items, correct?

Yep. Still awesome. :)

[Ævux]

If you are able to do espionage.. Mending is really good for fixing letters after you opened them to read. (Interception of message)

Spark is great for distractions. Combine with bags of flour for full effect.

Mage hand is another good one.

Memory lapse.. Imagine being able to get the start of combat on a single creature twice.

[Red-Assassin]

Well I have a rogue with these spells

Minor detect magic

Major expeditious retreat.

I think minor read magic would be allot better for UMD

Expeditous retreat is simply amazing if +12 on acrobatics sure shines apply that with boots of elvenkind and you have a character that can and will jump with no hesitation.

The movement also helps with climbing and setting up flanking.

I am one the fence about vanish and would not consider and touch based attack spells.

[brassbaboon]

I built a rogue for a new PF player in my current campaign and gave him "Mage Hand" and "True Strike".

Mage Hand may not be a great combat ability, but for pure versatility it is hard to beat, especially at low levels. True Strike is awesome for a rogue, and the rogue in question used True Strike very effectively in both of the encounters of our first session.

"Vanish" is also a very nice spell, as is "Acid Splash" but I really like the flavor of mage hand and true strike.

Mage hand is particularly nice in those situations where the rogue might be locked up weaponless in a cell with the keys hanging on a hook by the guard's desk...

[Red-Assassin]

SOnly problem I have with vanish is the 5 round limit. Which would be only 30 seconds.

Expidituous retreat last 1 minute/level so you could use it perhaps in 2 encounters worth. At tenth leve 10minutes. If you get into trouble off you run.

[The black raven]

dnjscott wrote:

Wow, 2 / day gaining up to 8 touch attacks is nice! Much more usage than you get from shield, actually.

Note that though you get 8 touch attacks, each takes a standard action to deliver. No full-attacking with Chill Touch attacks.

Also Chill Touch does not deal damage to undead.

Acid Splash is very nice, as it is SR-free.

[Red-Assassin]

Reading chill touch that is something great, so chill touch and twf and throw in crippiliing strike. Could turn into something nasty. Wonder if you could take a level of monk for furry and deliver them with unaramed strikes.

[The black raven]

Red-Assassin wrote:

Reading chill touch that is something great, so chill touch and twf and throw in crippiliing strike. Could turn into something nasty. Wonder if you could take a level of monk for furry and deliver them with unaramed strikes.

If you deliver them through unarmed strikes, you have to hit the normal AC, and not the lower Touch AC.

Also, using a touch attack from a spell takes a standard action or one (and only one) of your attacks if you are holding the charge and I saw nothing either in the rules or on the boards that said attacks granted by Chill Touch were different. Thus, you cannot full attack (and even less flurry) with Chill Touch attacks.

Apparently, the only spells that allow for full attacks are those that grant you a weapon as part of their effect (ie, Flame Blade).

For "balance" reasons, the developers do not wish to give the casters the ability to full attack with spells the way combattants can full attack with weapons.

[Red-Assassin]

Thanks Raven

I am out of the loop with some of these rules.

[Ravingdork]

The black raven wrote:

dnjscott wrote:

Wow, 2 / day gaining up to 8 touch attacks is nice! Much more usage than you get from shield, actually.

Note that though you get 8 touch attacks, each takes a standard action to deliver. No full-attacking with Chill Touch attacks.

Also Chill Touch does not deal damage to undead.

Acid Splash is very nice, as it is SR-free.

Actually, after the first round, you CAN full attack with a touch spell, provided it (1) has multiple charges and (2) doesn't otherwise say you can't.

Though chill touch doesn't damage undead, it is amazing at getting them off your back for a while.

Acid splash being SR free is really the only thing it has going for it.

[STR Ranger]

If you're allowed then Persistent Blade from Spell Compendium is great. Your own flank that can't be destroyed and does it's own SA.

[The black raven]

Ravingdork wrote:

Actually, after the first round, you CAN full attack with a touch spell, provided it (1) has multiple charges and (2) doesn't otherwise say you can't.

Are you 100% sure about this ? Because I believe I saw at least one post from a Designer (Jason Bulmahn, I believe) stating that there was no full attacking with attacks granted by spells unless said spell explicitely granted you a weapon (ie, Flame Blade).

Quote:

Though chill touch doesn't damage undead, it is amazing at getting them off your back for a while.

Unless they make their Will save (and as a Rogue, you do not have that high of a DC for your SLA).

Also, it works only on living creatures or the undead. Elementals and Constructs are immune.

BTW, a good thing to consider when choosing your spells for these talents is that you actually get a SLA. Thus you can later take the Empower SLA and Quicken SLA feats.

[Ravingdork]

The black raven wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

Actually, after the first round, you CAN full attack with a touch spell, provided it (1) has multiple charges and (2) doesn't otherwise say you can't.

Are you 100% sure about this ? Because I believe I saw at least one post from a Designer (Jason Bulmahn, I believe) stating that there was no full attacking with attacks granted by spells unless said spell explicitely granted you a weapon (ie, Flame Blade).

It DEFINITELY worked that way in past editions. If the Paizo developers have changed it in Pathfinder than it is possible that I could be wrong (but I still don't think that I am).

[Tentatores]

Touch attacks are delivered as a free action on the round they are cast (Core Rules page 185) or as a "normal unarmed attack" (i.e. not a touch attack) or an attack with a natural weapon if you are holding the charge (CRB page 186).

So I believe Ravingdork is right, although what exactly a "normal" attack is is difficult to say.

[Drachasor]

I really hate these talents with a passion. They are just so horrible. The cantrip one should be unlimited times per day for one. Personally, I think Major Magic should let you use it more as you level up. Also being forced to tie them to Intelligence is lame. But I guess that's the way of the world with crappy Rogue talents.

Edit: I don't hate the idea of these talents, just the implementation.

[Diego Rossi]

Remember that this FAQ:

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow

Spell-Like Abilities, Casting, and Prerequisites: Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Yes.
For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.

combined with minor/major magic being based upon the sorcerer/wizard spell list, allow you to take Arcane strike:

PRD wrote:

Arcane Strike (Combat)

You draw upon your arcane power to enhance your weapons with magical energy.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast arcane spells.

Benefit: As a swift action, you can imbue your weapons with a fraction of your power. For 1 round, your weapons deal +1 damage and are treated as magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. For every five caster levels you possess, this bonus increases by +1, to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

A +1, plus an additional +1 every 4 levels with all your weapons at the expense of a swift action is very nice.

For added confirmation:

ZanThrax wrote:

Does this mean that a Rogue with Minor Magic does qualify for Arcane Strike then?

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

ZanThrax, yes (we almost included that as an example in the FAQ answer).

[Drachasor]

RAW I don't think the arcane/divine thing is true at all for spell-likes -- or at least it is not clear. However, it is definitely true that a spell-like acts as a pre-req if a class or arcane/divine bit isn't specified. Spell-likes are treated as spells for all purposes except for where they are explicitly stated to not be like spells (this is in the rules).

Nothing on arcane/divine. One could argue, I suppose, that they are arcane. This would be based on the fact that arcane is more or less defined as "not divine":

Arcane Spells wrote:

Wizards, sorcerers, and bards cast arcane spells. Compared to divine spells, arcane spells are more likely to produce dramatic results.

Divine Spells wrote:

Clerics, druids, experienced paladins, and experienced rangers can cast divine spells. Unlike arcane spells, divine spells draw power from a divine source. Clerics gain spell power from deities or from divine forces. The divine force of nature powers druid and ranger spells, and the divine forces of law and good power paladin spells. Divine spells tend to focus on healing and protection and are less flashy, destructive, and disruptive than arcane spells.

Consider that with:

Beginning of the Magic section wrote:

A spell is a one-time magical effect. Spells come in two types: arcane (cast by bards, sorcerers, and wizards) and divine (cast by clerics, druids, and experienced paladins and rangers). Some spellcasters select their spells from a limited list of spells known, while others have access to a wide variety of options.

So one could say spell-likes are arcane, since they are not said to come from a divine source. However, this might get fuzzy with spell-likes on angels and the like. At least, it seems metaphysically unclear. As for RAW, I am not sure.

[Diego Rossi]

Drachsor, you can add your FAQ request to the thread asking for clarification about SLA and if/when they are arcane or divine, but I agree with SKR that the Rogue is a clear cut situation. He very clearly use an ability based on arcane spells, so, if he take minor/major magic he can take Arcane strike.

[DeathQuaker]

dnjscott wrote:

Hey all,

Any suggestions for the best spells to pick for these talents? I was leaning towards Acid splash (ranged touch + sneak attack is nice) and shield (AC boost stackable with everything is nice).

Am I missing something awesome? It is a pretty optimized group and most people are casters so I think I am safe in trying to get the most out of my 2 / day.

That's great for a combat focused rogue.

For a skill-focused rogue, I like detect magic, to help find illusions, magic traps (just in cast that Perception check is low), and of course identify the best treasure to pocket before the rest of the party sees it. ;) Some of the other utility cantrips could also be cool (even the humble but ever creative prestidigitation) but... other than these, yeah, the RTA SLA is the way to go.

For 1st level, Vanish as someone else mentioned is also useful, as it's temporary invisibility. Good for a quick getaway if needed. Grease also as always has a number of uses (make your enemies fall down--and the rogue is unlikely to succumb to his own spell because of high Ref/Acrobatics so he can use it in his area--and protect yourself from grappling, make people drop stuff). Mirror strike could be useful if you're melee focused... especially if you're in a scenario where the targets around you are either flatfooted or you are flanking them, so you can add sneak attack to the pool of damage you're dealing. Unerring weapon if you're a rapier user... and if you happen to be a half-elf, urban grace is at least certainly rogue flavorful.

But yeah, shield would be at or near the top of my list to take.

And I'd be all for a house rule that allowed Major Magic to be cast more times per day as the rogue levels, same for Minor Magic (with it, eventually becoming at will). I like the rogue more than many here, but the one thing I think that would make many of its perceived issues go away would be if many of the rogue talents were less circumstantial/limited.