So there was a blog out on the internets that claimed that the 3PP Pathfinder market was overcrowded. I have to disagree. I remember the d20 days when an entire bookcase at my local gaming store was filled with 3PP d20 books. That was overcrowded.
There are good things coming from many 3PP. Far too many of them are still PDF only. I know the market has changed in the last decade, and game stores are wary of glut. But until I see at least a shelf worth of Pathfinder Compatible products in stores I can't consider the market crowded. There are certainly more products being put out that I want than I can afford to buy, so I have to be a little choosier. But that sounds like a sign of a healthy industry to me.
What do other people think? Too many choices for Pathfinder? Or do you still want more?
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As long as the quality remains high, I say the more the better. The more 3pp the more likely one of them will make a niche product I want. Or yes recover more ground. Like witches hex's, no reason 2 or 3 or even 4 companies couldn't do them. If they was all done well and new hex's I would be all for it.
As a consumer, I think more 3PPs are good. I'm rather choosey in that I like products that target GMs vs. players. As a GM, I can always use more adventures, monsters, and magic items. And I agree with Dark Mistress that 3pps can explore niches outside the core Paizo products as well as generate new campaign worlds besides Golarion.
Speaking from experience -- I'm not worried in the least.
The d20 Glut was not a problem of too many publishers -- it was a problem of lack of discernment in ordering, on the part of retailers.
Early d20 product sold well, so as more and more d20 product hit the market, retailers ordered EVERYTHING -- in the assumption that it, too, would fly off the shelves. This is because, frankly, most Local Game Stores are run by people with little to no business sense.
Of course, as anybody (but those stores, apparently) could've told you -- everything didn't fly off the shelves. Some products did, others did not. Had they kept their orders to product that they'd had information on, and had judged a good fit for their store and their customer base, there wouldn't have been a problem.
Of course, most of those stores have since gone out of business, post-glut and post-economic-crash, so the problem has been largely self-corrected. :)
Given the state of the hobby market today (far fewer retail locations, much more product directly aimed to consumers via online retail, PDF and POD), I don't think we'll see a repeat of the conditions that led to the d20 Glut.
The number of publishers supporting Pathfinder could triple at this point, and it wouldn't come close to even the early days of the d20 Glut. We're fine.
The d20 Glut ... was a problem of lack of discernment in ordering, on the part of retailers.
This.
Until about a year ago, the game store closest to me still carried lots of D&D 3PP books from the 2000-2001 days. Lots of them. The owner admitted to me that all they do anymore is specialty order (unless its from Wizards or Paizo, and even then few copies of each). What happened a year-ish ago that changed that? A new store opened closer to me. So that store still, to this day, carries lots and lots more 10+ year old game books that do not sell to anyone. Meanwhile my books that appeal to their current customers are not carried on their shelves.
And I know that that store is not the only one. So we're still feeling the effects of the d20 Glut, despite d20 being long over.
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The d20 Glut ... was a problem of lack of discernment in ordering, on the part of retailers.This.
Until about a year ago, the game store closest to me still carried lots of D&D 3PP books from the 2000-2001 days. Lots of them. The owner admitted to me that all they do anymore is specialty order (unless its from Wizards or Paizo, and even then few copies of each). What happened a year-ish ago that changed that? A new store opened closer to me. So that store still, to this day, carries lots and lots more 10+ year old game books that do not sell to anyone. Meanwhile my books that appeal to their current customers are not carried on their shelves.
And I know that that store is not the only one. So we're still feeling the effects of the d20 Glut, despite d20 being long over.
But as Gareth said that is more cause of the stores being very poorly run, than cause of any glut. My half brother opened up a hobby store in the late 90s and managed to go out of business during the middle of the 3e run. But he ran it really really badly.
Too crowded? I don't think so.
*watches tumbleweed blow past*
But in all seriousness, the RPG market can be likened to the fiction industry. Would you say there are too many novels out there and no room for more? Sure, many themes and ideas have already been published. But each new book brings its own unique take on things (okay, most of the time that's true). That is the beauty of any creativity-based venue like the fiction or, in this case, roleplaying market.
As long as there is creativity, there can be more publishers. Bring. It. On.
As long as the quality remains high, I say the more the better. The more 3pp the more likely one of them will make a niche product I want. Or yes recover more ground. Like witches hex's, no reason 2 or 3 or even 4 companies couldn't do them. If they was all done well and new hex's I would be all for it.
I view it as a good and bad thing... bad because there is a lot out there and it can be hard to choose for a first time buyer if they don't know where to go for reviews and such... but great for a developer (like myself soon hopefully) because seeing that much stuff out there means we should have no problem joining the swim club
Too crowded? I don't think so.
*watches tumbleweed blow past*
But in all seriousness, the RPG market can be likened to the fiction industry. Would you say there are too many novels out there and no room for more? Sure, many themes and ideas have already been published. But each new book brings its own unique take on things (okay, most of the time that's true). That is the beauty of any creativity-based venue like the fiction or, in this case, roleplaying market.
As long as there is creativity, there can be more publishers. Bring. It. On.
Agreed. The d20 glut didn't happen because there were too many publishers producing too many books, it happened because: 1) there were too many publishers producing too many poorly written/edited books; and, 2) book and game stores ordered anything and everything, thinking all gamers would want all books, period.
Publishers, whether the ones that survived the d20 glut, or new ones that have entered in recent years, learned from those mistakes, for the most part. Sure, we occasionally produce something that isn't the same quality as the bulk of our material, but most of try our best to put out only the best product we can.
And as Dark Mistress has pointed out more than a few times, writing/design quality is often subjective. If it's something you are particularly fond of, you might consider it better quality than what others do. Editing/layout quality is far less subjective, though.
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All I can say is that as a consumer, I'm thrilled with more material to choose from. As a publisher, I have yet to see any sign that more companies, many doing more products, is in any way costing Super Genius Games sales.
And right now, more material means more things I might be able to build off of, which was the whole point behind the OGL in the first place. We've built of Dreamscarred press, Rite Publishing has built off us, and I won't be surprised when someone builds off Rite. So far, I see no glut.
I certainly hope it's not too crowded. What I've seen of 3PP is the chance to have more options but not feel 'obligated' to have it all. As soon as I actually get a job the first thing I'm getting is Psionics Unleashed.
Also one day I'd like to release my campaign setting to the world with some new classes and monsters to go along with it. Not anytime soon, but I hope one day to as Hyperion put it, join the swim club.
Pretty much this. There's no "crowd" from a buyer's viewpoint when only focusing on very specific things.
And that's very true. Even during the glut, I didn't feel there was a glut because I focused on a few 3PP (Malhovac, Green Ronin, Goodman Games and XRP mostly) and rarely bought anything outside of them. It wasn't until after 4e/Pathfinder came along and a lot of older OGL material went on sell for cheap that I began to pick up other stuff.
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Pretty much this. There's no "crowd" from a buyer's viewpoint when only focusing on very specific things.And that's very true. Even during the glut, I didn't feel there was a glut because I focused on a few 3PP (Malhovac, Green Ronin, Goodman Games and XRP mostly) and rarely bought anything outside of them. It wasn't until after 4e/Pathfinder came along and a lot of older OGL material went on sell for cheap that I began to pick up other stuff.
Yah. One of the LGS' had a massive closing sale, making it too tempting to pick up everything with a d20 on it. Otherwise, I'm usually very, very, picky.
All I can say is that as a consumer, I'm thrilled with more material to choose from. As a publisher, I have yet to see any sign that more companies, many doing more products, is in any way costing Super Genius Games sales.
Big props to Super Genius Games, by the way. I think you guys are really doing it right. Nice work.
Just thought I'd say that.
Plus, I knew the glut and this, sir, is no glut. :)
Clark
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All I can say is that as a consumer, I'm thrilled with more material to choose from. As a publisher, I have yet to see any sign that more companies, many doing more products, is in any way costing Super Genius Games sales.Big props to Super Genius Games, by the way. I think you guys are really doing it right. Nice work.
Just thought I'd say that.
Plus, I knew the glut and this, sir, is no glut. :)
Clark
And when shall we be seein' you contributing to this lack of glut, sir? ;-)
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I feel obligated to chime in on this one. As a prospective new 3PP and gaming store owner, I have some additional thoughts.
Back in the early d20 days, the OGL made it possible for everyone and their brother to produce 3PP books. I was extremely leery of rolling with any of them, and only picked up the ones that provided a lot of good options and were well received by the gaming community. As it has been mentioned, there are still gaming stores out there with 10 year old d20 products taking up shelf space. Yes, these stores are horribly mis-managed, but it is partially due to a limited knowledge of the RPG market. I happen to also be a gamer, and know what products are doing well. Conversely, many of the local gaming stores are run by folks that love comics and know nothing about the gaming industry.
The market tends to correct itself. Unfortunately, local stores are not carrying as much 3PP products, mostly because they got burned years ago and either don’t want to try again, or are simply unaware of the Pathfinder 3PP potential. For that matter, Pathfinder is still an afterthought in many gaming stores, which is a complete shame. They don’t have the brand recognition that D&D has, but they are growing. People have to ask for it and the local store owners need to see that it is a growing phenomenon. I’ve certainly seen that, but I’ve been playing since it came out. For our group, “D&D Night” is Pathfinder.
Still no worries for 3PP’s though. There has been a huge push for virtual products over the past few years. This allows all of us to produce products that reach a larger audience, and that audience also has a larger voice. If there becomes a “glut” of virtual products, it isn’t going to hinder the industry as much now. The “virtual bookshelf” is much larger and more accommodating.
Also, more competition only means better products will be produced. There are some really talented folks out there that don’t work for Paizo or Wizards. I for one am grateful to a lot of the 3PP’s for the content they have generated for our game sessions. The competition will keep upping the level of quality and game ideas. Any “chaff” in the market will simply not sell as well, and thus the market speaks.
The glut affected me the most as the DM, whether you are talking about 3.5, pathfinder or 4E. At some point there has to be a limit. There are only so many classes, feats, etc. I can handle. With pathfinder core, advanced players guide, bestiary books, and the near future releases from Paizo, there will be plenty of material to go over for years. I stopped buying 4E once essentials was released.
So I guess the real question is how popular roleplaying is today, versus 10 years ago, and what motivates the consumer to purchase.
I think those of us that have played for while are more selective, while the new buyers will have to go through the cycle of having a host a books, or PDFs, they may rarely use.
Back in the early d20 days, the OGL made it possible for everyone and their brother to produce 3PP books.
Let me toss in a small observation. I think we are saying the same thing, but I want to specifically identify the proper responsible mechanism.
The OGL didnt make it possible for everyone to make books. The OGL made it possible to create products. But to make a BOOK requires a company, art, layout, the up front cost for printing and distribution.
Normally, the barriers to making a "book" (aka a printed product in the distribution chain) involved serious money. You had to be pretty committed and financially invested to actually make a book. And that kept the bar pretty high for entry into the print market. If you had the money to go to press, pay authors, pay artists, pay for layout, etc., that was legit. Not everybody could do that.
The OGL didnt give people the ability to make "books." Wizard's Attic did. Back in the day there was a distributor called Wizard's Attic. Run by some really cool guys, don't get me wrong. But they really lowered the bar for people to get into the print game. THAT is what created the flood of print products that led to the glut of d20 products. Had the proper marketplace bars not been lowered you wouldn't have seen so much junk. Now, that said, lowering that bar also let some newcomers enter the marketplace to great effect.
So don't blame the OGL. Blame the companies (like WA) who let people in who should never have been let in and who otherwise would never have been able to create or finance a print product. Now, I'm not judging. I know the guys from WA and they were cool. If anything, the error was one of heart. They loved open gaming and wanted to help new companies. Maybe they also saw the dollar signs from the growth of the d20 movement and the success that White Wolf and I had with the Creature Collection and subsequent Sword & Sorcery line.
Also, don't let retailers off the hook. They foolishly bought anything with a d20 logo. The OGL didnt make them buy that stuff from companies that previously never existed, had no established track record and had no working relationship with their distributors. Retailers snatched up no name companies' products at a rate no reasonable person would do. Did they do it for heart and love of open gaming? Maybe. I remember at the time a feeling that the golden age of third party support (a la Judges Guild back in the day) had returned, so I see why there was optimism. But when you get right down to it, it was a horrid business decision to buy tons of books from brand new companies that never existed and had no track record. Of course, that was facilitated in part because many of those new companies went through Wizards Attic, which DID have a track record with the retailers. Again, the fact that White Wolf's Sword and Sorcery line, or Atlas Games, or Green Ronin, or me working with White Wolf was successful should come as no surprise--those were established companies and established gaming names entering into d20. But the retailers didnt draw the line there, they literally bought anything. There was a feeling at the time that this was a huge cash cow and no body wanted to miss out, on the retail end. Well, it wound up being a cautionary tale. Now, unfortunately, the market has over-corrected in my view and is too cautious--blaming the SYSTEM rather than THEIR OWN FOOLISH PRACTICES for the glut.
So don't blame the OGL. Now, the existence of teh OGL permitted these companies to make products to some degree. But the glut and the downfall as a result of that glut was due to some bad decisions by Wizards Attic to support newbie no name companies and retailers buying things they should never have been buying and just riding the wave.
So, yes, the OGL gave people the legal green light to make stuff. But it didnt create the glut, nor the reaction to the glut.
Clark
Speaking from experience -- I'm not worried in the least.
The d20 Glut was not a problem of too many publishers -- it was a problem of lack of discernment in ordering, on the part of retailers.
Early d20 product sold well, so as more and more d20 product hit the market, retailers ordered EVERYTHING -- in the assumption that it, too, would fly off the shelves.
....
We're fine.
Sorry GMS I didnt see your post or I would have just responded with a "+1". Right on.
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I see the amount of third party products the same way I see flavors of ice cream.
Some people are happy with just vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry. But as long as there are people that want more, there will be strawberry shortcake, mint chocolate chip, and orange sherbet.
Man I miss Young's right now.
I see the amount of third party products the same way I see flavors of ice cream.
Some people are happy with just vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry. But as long as there are people that want more, there will be strawberry shortcake, mint chocolate chip, and orange sherbet.
Man I miss Young's right now.
Damn you! Now I want ice cream...
>:)
You're not anywhere near Southern Ohio are you? Young's Jersey Dairy in Yellow Springs is divine.
I blame the hippies and their secret ingredients. ;-)
>:)
You're not anywhere near Southern Ohio are you? Young's Jersey Dairy in Yellow Springs is divine.
I am not. About a three day drive from there, in fact. :(
I am not. About a three day drive from there, in fact. :(>:)
You're not anywhere near Southern Ohio are you? Young's Jersey Dairy in Yellow Springs is divine.
I am in dayton, ohio; and yes it is divine.
I agree with a lot of things mentioned in this thread but I also want to interject an additional cause of the D20 OGL "glut" from a consumer end.
Semi-related tangent incoming:
There also happened to be a large number of roleplayers that had gotten into Magic the Gathering when TSR began to offer up tripe and googaws that failed to satisfy. Sure they could have played the other RPG's that existed at the time but most just set aside their d20's and began tapping cards for mana. These same people were in the 20-30 category and were ripe for accepting a new and invigorated release of D&D (even amidst the edition wars). The customer base was made of people that were shelling out hundreds/thousands of dollars on Magic cards. We weren't poor high school or college kids as we'd been in the 90's (80's for some of the older dogs in the pack :)). Some of us were lawyers, engineers, IT professionals, lingering dot-comers, business owners, etc and we had money to spend. So D&D 3rd edition hits the shelves.
Then you get the OGL on top of all that good kharma and you had the proper fuel to ignite a fire which turned into an uncontrolled firestorm of D20 products. The whys and hows of the publishing industry have been discussed quite well thus far.
As a long-time consumer of RPG products I remembered just how stifled TSR had kept the industry, and the difficulty I had obtaining products for my hobby in Boise Idaho (Dark Horse & Ralph's Toys N Hobbies were pretty much it). So when I started seeing legitimate quantities of RPG books with compatible rule sets showing up on the shelves at Borders, Barnes & Noble, Comic Shops, Card Stores and in non-gaming hobby stores I did what any starving or parched person does when offered food and drink. I Consumed. Sure game store owners and vendors purchased way too much stuff. But at the bottom end of that food chain you have a ravenous consumer base that was willing to actually buy the awful stuff alongside the good. Without our injection of rediculous amounts (for the hobby gaming industry anyway) of captial you wouldn't have had distributors like WA shoveling as much dung into the market as there was. It was a miniature RPG land/gold rush. I know that for my part I bought some really awful crap...I mean...like...threw it away when I moved last time awful.
Now to rope my rambling back to the Pathfinder 3pp discussion? I really think that the publishers, designers, vendors, distributors and consumers are in a much different place now-adays than the conditions that existed in 2001-2007. You have economic issues, educated consumption, digital media and a host of other changes that make today's market such that good 3pp products will do well and bad ones will simply be avoided (with individual tastes never being equal of course).
I think the point that many are missing is that while more and more companies are coming, the amount of money people have to spend it not. Now there are 15 3PP with a person spending $20 a month on RPG products. Six months from now there are 30 3PP with a person spending $25 a month on RPG products. Six months after that there are 45 3PP with a person spending $30 a month on RPG products. Six months after that there are 60 3PP with a person spending $40 a month on RPG products. And so on....
The more interesting part to all this is, people have not figured out what amount of money are they sending on Paizo products to the amount I listed?
I think the point that many are missing is that while more and more companies are coming, the amount of money people have to spend it not. Now there are 15 3PP with a person spending $20 a month on RPG products. Six months from now there are 30 3PP with a person spending $25 a month on RPG products. Six months after that there are 45 3PP with a person spending $30 a month on RPG products. Six months after that there are 60 3PP with a person spending $40 a month on RPG products. And so on....
The more interesting part to all this is, people have not figured out what amount of money are they sending on Paizo products to the amount I listed?
what the h are you talking about?
do you really think there are that many 3PPs that put out that much worthy product a month?
what the h are you talking about?
do you really think there are that many 3PPs that put out that much worthy product a month?
If you count just SGG and Rite publishing that is 8 products a month as of NOW. Two 3PP put out 8 product a month. What happens if you add Open Design, Adamant, Frog God, Necromancer to this numbers of product release? You can still drown in your "worthy" products which just the small list of names I gave you.
If you count just SGG and Rite publishing that is 8 products a month as of NOW. Two 3PP put out 8 product a month. What happens if you add Open Design, Adamant, Frog God, Necromancer to this numbers of product release? You can still drown in your "worthy" products which just the small list of names I gave you.what the h are you talking about?
do you really think there are that many 3PPs that put out that much worthy product a month?
Guess I should clarify "worthy"
No player/GM on any kind of budget is going to buy every thing from even a single 3PP.
Sure they put out 8 a month maybe, but they are 8 must have products
If you count just SGG and Rite publishing that is 8 products a month as of NOW. Two 3PP put out 8 product a month. What happens if you add Open Design, Adamant, Frog God, Necromancer to this numbers of product release? You can still drown in your "worthy" products which just the small list of names I gave you.what the h are you talking about?
do you really think there are that many 3PPs that put out that much worthy product a month?
Then you just have to have consistent quality and good word of mouth among consumers. Probably should lay off the April Fool's gags too (oh, too soon?). (j/k LPJ, you know I love you)
Then you just have to have consistent quality and good word of mouth among consumers. Probably should lay off the April Fool's gags too (oh, too soon?). (j/k LPJ, you know I love you)
The issue will be the amount of money that can be spent. We STILL are in the middle of a recession in the US.
Then you just have to have consistent quality and good word of mouth among consumers. Probably should lay off the April Fool's gags too (oh, too soon?). (j/k LPJ, you know I love you)The issue will be the amount of money that can be spent. We STILL are in the middle of a recession in the US.
You know it ended like 2 quarters ago right?
You know it ended like 2 quarters ago right?Then you just have to have consistent quality and good word of mouth among consumers. Probably should lay off the April Fool's gags too (oh, too soon?). (j/k LPJ, you know I love you)The issue will be the amount of money that can be spent. We STILL are in the middle of a recession in the US.
Well that's a fallacy. I run a small town business and I can tell you that the recession is no where near over. Shouldn't believe everything they (media/government) tell you.
Back to the discussion, Rite Publishing puts out lots of must have product. Sometimes some of their product is campaign specific, so if you don't play Questhaven for instance, you might not need supplements for it, but much of Rite Publishing's releases are things like the current 101 0-level spells for Pathfinder, having already created 1st - 9th level spells, for a total of 1010 cool and balanced spells. I think that's a must have product.
But 'must have' is also subjective.
GP
the problem with the term recession is the lack of understanding what it means.
When there is an economic recession, that means spending is down and the economy 'recedes'. If the economy recedes for an extended period of time (I think 4 quarters in a row) it creates what economists refer to as a 'depression'. By the definition, a recession can end (which means spending is either a) on the rise or b) has at least evened out and has not dropped any more); but the depression can remain.
In laymans terms, just because the recession has ended doesn't mean "good times are back".
The 'great depression' of the early 1900s in the USA was said to be 'ended' by the american involvement in WW2. However huge areas of the agrarian countryside never, ever recovered from the depression, and it took the vast majority until the 1960s or later to actually recover.
The only real 'saving grace' was that ww2 had killed off so many working men, that the 'jobless rate' after the war wasn't a fraction of what it was before hand.
However, soldiers returning home from war were still jobless once they got here, there was just alot less of them returning.
So a 'recession' being over, doesn't really mean diddly in the eyes of the common man.
I was happier when the discussion segued to ice cream. Can we get back to that?
But seriously, while a number of 3PP are producing a lot of material right now, and there are only so many dollars to go around to everyone for Pathfinder Compatible products, the solution to staying in business is two-fold.
1) Consistently produce quality material that gets good reviews from known and trusted reviewers (I'm looking at you, succubus!).
2) Branch out from Pathfinder, or, as the saying goes, don't put all your eggs in one basket. For the most part, many 3PP are already doing that by supporting other RPGs. Later this months is our first product supporting M&M 3e and later this summer is our first original game system. Gamers want to game, and if we produce quality material - for any game system - they'll spend their money to buy it.
The point is people still aren't spending lots of money, or any amount close to what they spent before the 'recession'. So at least for RPG publishers the economic picture is rather bleak compared to earlier times.
But we all do the best we can to survive and succeed as possible.
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If you count just SGG and Rite publishing that is 8 products a month as of NOW. Two 3PP put out 8 product a month. What happens if you add Open Design, Adamant, Frog God, Necromancer to this numbers of product release? You can still drown in your "worthy" products which just the small list of names I gave you.what the h are you talking about?
do you really think there are that many 3PPs that put out that much worthy product a month?
what happens is that eventually, like everything else in life, things change.
The economy gets better, and people can buy more.
Or the economy gets worse and people buy less and some 3PP go out of business, or merge.
Most likely as things progress some current companies will die off not due to overcrowding, but due to other life matters (family, illness, new job, whatever). Some companies may go on to be primary sources of games, producing their own rulesets and publishing their own games. Others will simply become exhausted with the added work load and quit.
Competition is what it is all about. The strong survive and the weak die. Natural selection. It's life, so there's no use in complaining about it.
All I can say is that our 2010 sales were 4 times our 2009 sales, and that was with releasing only a single major product after April 2010.
The point is people still aren't spending lots of money, or any amount close to what they spent before the 'recession'. So at least for RPG publishers the economic picture is rather bleak compared to earlier times.
But we all do the best we can to survive and succeed as possible.
I really wish this weren't true, but anecdotally, it sure seems so. My wife and I have redone our budget several times in the past two years so I can keep my subscriptions here, but it's been a near thing. I would have dearly loved to have been a patron of both your Kaidan and KQ's Midgard, if things weren't so tight.
All I can say is that our 2010 sales were 4 times our 2009 sales, and that was with releasing only a single major product after April 2010.
Ive heard alot of people say that about 2010 who are small business owners. Our local power sports dealer (boats and snowmobiles mostly) experienced their worst year in 2008 and it's been better every year since. Not booming, but better. If you weathered 2008-2009 chances are you are keeping your head above water.
Well most my current publications are imprints under Rite Publishing, and 2009 was better than 2008, and 2010 was better than 2009 for Rite Publishing, so I am working under a good banner of publishing management. All this despite the state of the economy.
My economic woes are regarding my small town graphics shop, not so much my publishing endeavors.
The point is people still aren't spending lots of money, or any amount close to what they spent before the 'recession'. So at least for RPG publishers the economic picture is rather bleak.
I think that's not exactly true - people who can't spend as much entertainment are likely to want something that they'll get a lot of enjoyment out of for a long time, and RPGs are very good for that. A core rulebook costs as much as 4 movie tickets or a nice dinner for two at a restaurant, but you will be gaming with it for YEARS if it's good. A splat book is the same price as going to movies, but it'll last as long as you use it - and PDFs are even cheaper.
Honestly, in an era like this, RPGs are great value for money in terms of entertainment. And the sales of Pathfinder and many of us 3PPers show there is money to be made if you produce a good product, which most of us do.
And I personally like tin roof sundae ice cream :)
The point is people still aren't spending lots of money, or any amount close to what they spent before the 'recession'. So at least for RPG publishers the economic picture is rather bleak.I think that's not exactly true - people who can't spend as much entertainment are likely to want something that they'll get a lot of enjoyment out of for a long time, and RPGs are very good for that. A core rulebook costs as much as 4 movie tickets or a nice dinner for two at a restaurant, but you will be gaming with it for YEARS if it's good. A splat book is the same price as going to movies, but it'll last as long as you use it - and PDFs are even cheaper.
Honestly, in an era like this, RPGs are great value for money in terms of entertainment. And the sales of Pathfinder and many of us 3PPers show there is money to be made if you produce a good product, which most of us do.
And I personally like tin roof sundae ice cream :)
I corrected my point on my next post. Not so much publishers, but small town businesses that are feeling the hurt. My publishing and cartography endeavors are actually growing - just not enough to offset my losses in my day business.
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I was happier when the discussion segued to ice cream. Can we get back to that?
But seriously, while a number of 3PP are producing a lot of material right now, and there are only so many dollars to go around to everyone for Pathfinder Compatible products, the solution to staying in business is two-fold.
1) Consistently produce quality material that gets good reviews from known and trusted reviewers (I'm looking at you, succubus!).
2) Branch out from Pathfinder, or, as the saying goes, don't put all your eggs in one basket. For the most part, many 3PP are already doing that by supporting other RPGs. Later this months is our first product supporting M&M 3e and later this summer is our first original game system. Gamers want to game, and if we produce quality material - for any game system - they'll spend their money to buy it.
So you want to market to and sell to crazy people? Not sure that is the wisest of business plans. :)