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Ok, I have a couple fairly simple questions.
The wording on a couple of the evolutions seems a bit ambiguous and I'd like clarification.
for:
Improved Natural Armor (Ex)
An eidolon’s hide grows thick fur, rigid scales, or bony plates, giving it a +2 bonus to its natural armor. This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses.
That sounds to me like you can take this evolution at first level and then again at fifth. Is this correct, or would the next possible time to take it be sixth? I assume it is available at first level because it has no minimum level restrictions like other evolutions which specifically mention such.
and:
Ability Increase (Ex)
An eidolon grows larger muscles, gains faster ref lexes, achieves greater intelligence, or acquires another increase to one of its abilities. Increase one of the eidolon’s ability scores by +2. This evolution can be selected more than once. It can only be applied once to an individual ability score, plus 1 additional time for every 6 levels the summoner possesses.
Again, would this mean I can take it again at sixth or seventh?
1: 5th for the 2nd.
2: 6th for the 2nd.
Actually it is:
1: 10th for the 2nd, 15th for the third, 20th for the fourth.
- Yea, that first step is harsh, but it is on purpose. During testing the AC evolution was one of the most unbalancing features.
2: Correct! - 2nd @ 6th, 3rd @ 12th, 4th @ 18th.
1: 5th for the 1st, 10th for the second, 15th for the third
2: 1st for the 1st, 6th for the second, 12th for the third.
Why?
The difference between "once for every five levels" and "once ... plus 1 additional time for every 6 levels". In the first case, you have to have 5 levels to qualify for it once. In the second case, you can apply it whenever, and apply it a second time once you have 6 levels. You can see the parallelism in the wording of "every X levels" - there's no reason to assume that that phrase would work differently between the two abilities.
1: 5th for the 1st, 10th for the second, 15th for the third
2: 1st for the 1st, 6th for the second, 12th for the third.Why?
The difference between "once for every five levels" and "once ... plus 1 additional time for every 6 levels". In the first case, you have to have 5 levels to qualify for it once. In the second case, you can apply it whenever, and apply it a second time once you have 6 levels. You can see the parallelism in the wording of "every X levels" - there's no reason to assume that that phrase would work differently between the two abilities.
The "...plus one additional..." is the big difference.
I observed this being discussed by the devs here on the forum. I'd link you, but my search fu is not strong enough.
Poorly worded as it may be, the intent is that from level 1 to 9 you can give the Eidolon 1 armor boost. That is what I got from the dev post.
Worded as it is, I suppose you'd have to be level 5 minimum to take the first level as you also point out.
1: 5th for the 1st, 10th for the second, 15th for the third
2: 1st for the 1st, 6th for the second, 12th for the third.Why?
The difference between "once for every five levels" and "once ... plus 1 additional time for every 6 levels". In the first case, you have to have 5 levels to qualify for it once. In the second case, you can apply it whenever, and apply it a second time once you have 6 levels. You can see the parallelism in the wording of "every X levels" - there's no reason to assume that that phrase would work differently between the two abilities.
The "...plus one additional..." is the big difference.
I observed this being discussed by the devs here on the forum. I'd link you, but my search fu is not strong enough.
Poorly worded as it may be, the intent is that from level 1 to 9 you can give the Eidolon 1 armor boost. That is what I got from the dev post.
Worded as it is, I suppose you'd have to be level 5 minimum to take the first level as you also point out.
This is correct.
This.
Until you are level 10 you only can only claim to have of grouping of 5 levels of summoner, which is what the evolution requires two of... hence level 10 requirement.
But can you claim to have one grouping of 5 levels at level 2?
I observed this being discussed by the devs here on the forum. I'd link you, but my search fu is not strong enough.
Here is Joshua Frost talking about it, but no golem because he isn't with Paizo any more (as far as I can tell).
Unless someone else has another link to a discussion on it, I consider that post to be RAI (in the sense of Intended), but not RAW. Until errata are actually issued on the subject, anyway. It just makes much more sense to be able to get it at 5, 10, 15, and 20 than 1, 10, 15, 20, and the former reading matches what the text actually says far better.
Just checked the APG errata. It doesn't mention this issue at all.
I'll go with what appears to be the RAI(W) of 'can take at first, can take again at 10th'.
Just checked the APG errata. It doesn't mention this issue at all.
I'll go with what appears to be the RAI(W) of 'can take at first, can take again at 10th'.
RAI(W)? Rules As Intended to be Written?
I think you can take improved armor at first level. but I see why from the wording you cannot. basically they usually say you must be x level when it's needed.
Out of curiosity, what does HeroLab do with it, for those that have it? (realizing HeroLab is not Paizo official)
I always thought it was 5,10,15,20. As in one must possess five levels before getting first increnment.
Greg
I think you can take improved armor at first level. but I see why from the wording you cannot. basically they usually say you must be x level when it's needed.+ 1
Agreed the RAW is "..This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses..."
..so following on from the the next time you take it is level; 10th, 15th, 20th.There was a James Jacobs post on this a while back (can't find it now but look for the link over the next day or so).
have a look at the other evolutions like poison which state explicitly, what level is required before taking the evolution.
Exactly how do you possess five levels at level 1? I don't get why there's confusion about this. It isn't poorly worded. It is quite explicitly stated how this works.
Once every five levels you possess.
Do you have five levels at level one? No. Can't pick it.
Do you have five levels at level four? No. Can't pick it.
Do you have five levels at level five? Yes! You can pick it! Once.
Do you have five levels at level seven? Yes! You can pick it! Assuming you didn't pick it already.
Do you have five levels at level 10? Yes! Twice! You can have it as much as two times.
It wasn't James it was Josh Frost...
the phrase; "...This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses..." is very different from you must be a 5th level summoner to select this evolution I do understand your confusion but it helps when you look at all the evolutions in context. Which is why Josh explained it for us below;
In context:
Improved Natural Armor: This evolution can be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses
Ability Increase: This evolution can be selected more than once. It can only be applied once to an individual ability score, plus 1 additional time for every 6 levels the summoner possesses.
There's clearly a difference here.
Go to the thread here Eidolons.I have reposted his answer above, feel free to comment about it and the previous thread.Joshua J. Frost, Fri, Mar 5, 2010, 06:27 AM
As for the Improved Natural Armor evolution, that last sentence is unfortunately not very clear. Here's the intent and how you should handle it until the class is finalized:
The intent was that you could take it at level 1, level 10, level 15, and level 20. So it should read something like, "This evolution may be taken once for every five levels the summoner possesses, minimum level 1." So you could take it at level 1, but then you'd need ten summoner levels to take it again (level 10), 15 summoner levels to take it a third time, and 20 summoner levels to take it a fourth time.
Hope this helps!
I linked to that post above as well. And I repeat my stance, which is that while that post represents the Rules-As-Intended, it's not the Rules-As-Written. Which means they need to issue errata if they want to bring it in line with their intentions.
Edit: Also, I just noticed the date on that post and the "until the class is finalized" quote. He's clearly referring to a playtest version, and the APG printing which comes after his comment, takes precedence. And the APG is clearly worded so you can't take it before 5th level, based on the comparison I made above.
Yup. 5th Level is the 1st time you can take this evolution.
Since we have a response from Paizo it seems pretty clear it is RAI1 and non-exploitative, so I would think most GMs would allow it, but RAW still says you could only take it at 5/10/15/20.
Do what you like? You have Josh's words/ruling on the matter. And it's +2 AC to Eidolon with 5.5 HP at first level (PFS). hardly overpowering.
While it is entirely true that it's up to each GM, and it's not particularly broken to allow it, Josh's post is not a legitimate source of a ruling on this, because it was a comment made almost 5 months before the final text was released, and was clearly referring to the playtest version. Whatever the original intent may have been, they were aware that the text didn't support it, and they didn't alter it. The most recent source always wins.
Personally, there were parts of the playtest summoner I liked better than the final version, and as GM I could choose to use part of or the entire beta version instead of the final, but my preference is to stick as close to the rules as is feasible.
Since we have a response from Paizo it seems pretty clear it is RAI1 and non-exploitative, so I would think most GMs would allow it, but RAW still says you could only take it at 5/10/15/20.Do what you like? You have Josh's words/ruling on the matter. And it's +2 AC to Eidolon with 5.5 HP at first level (PFS). hardly overpowering.While it is entirely true that it's up to each GM, and it's not particularly broken to allow it, Josh's post is not a legitimate source of a ruling on this, because it was a comment made almost 5 months before the final text was released, and was clearly referring to the playtest version. Whatever the original intent may have been, they were aware that the text didn't support it, and they didn't alter it. The most recent source always wins.
Personally, there were parts of the playtest summoner I liked better than the final version, and as GM I could choose to use part of or the entire beta version instead of the final, but my preference is to stick as close to the rules as is feasible.
Good Catch!! So that is a comment on the Beta rules. This makes me happier. one ten fifteen just really didn't make sense to me.
Thanks
Greg
Yes and No,
It's a comment on the intent of the evolution as was created to be. I think it was simply overlooked.
The issue could have been simply resolved by adding;
The summoner must be at least 5th level before selecting this evolution
In fact any of the evolutions that can be chosen are dependent on a level and mirror exactly the statement above (only the lvl required changes).
So the question remains; Why is this evolution the only one written in a different format?
Still at Level one for me; until ruled otherwise and not over-looked.
Really, the only other comparable evolution is the attribute boost - nothing else lets you take it a level-based number of times. And attribute boost specifically lets you take it at 1st level which this doesn't. However, the question does still remain.