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Hey folks,
I'm hoping someone might be willing to double check my calculations for Wild Shape to make sure I understand the mechanic properly. AC is what I'm least clear on.
My Human Druid is 4th level. Here are his stats.
STR 10 (0)
DEX 14 (2)
CON 14 (2)
INT 12 (1)
WIS 20 (5)
CHA 10 (0)
Base Attack Bonus: 3
As an Eagle I would have the following stats:
STR 10 (0)
DEX 16 (3)
CON 14 (2)
INT 12 (1)
WIS 20 (5)
CHA 10 (0)
AC 15=10(base)+3(dex mod)+1(size)+1(natural) (really confused how this works, not able to find specifics in Wild Shape, Beast Shape or Polymorph sections)
Speed 10ft
Fly 30ft (Average)
Low-Light Vision
2 talons +3 (1d4), bite +3 (1d4) (+3 from my Base Attack Bonus, not the Eagle's existing attack bonus)
"When you cast this spell you can assum the form of any Small or Medium creature of the animal type. If the form you assume has any of hte following abilities, you gain the listed ability: climb 30, fly 30 (average), swim 30, darkvision 60, Low-Light vision, and scent.
Small Animal: If the form you take is that of a small animal, you gain a +2 size bonus to your dexterity, and a +1 natural armor bonus."
What about this is confusing? If you can pin down what was giving you trouble, I'll try to focus on it more! Your dex goes up by 2 and your natural armor goes up by one, and now you're small size, so +1 ac for small size. Total of +4 ac, but lose your Armor and Shield bonuses.
So yes, your character has AC15 for a small eagle, with fly 30 (average maneuverability) and low-light vision. A character with an 18 dexterity would raise their dex to 20 when wildshaped, and would end up with a (10+5+1+1=17) AC17.
Your attacks for this character would be:
2 talons +7 (1d4x2), bite +7 (1d4x2) (+3 BAB, +1 size, +3 dexterity)
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Total of +4 ac, but lose your Armor and Shield bonuses.
That only totals to +3 AC. Your example is right, though.
Your attacks for this character would be:
2 talons +7 (1d4x2), bite +7 (1d4x2) (+3 BAB, +1 size, +3 dexterity)
Not unless he has Weapon Finesse. Being an Eagle doesn't inherently let you use Dex to attack.
I want to say 'Sure it does!' but now I can't find the example.
Animals always use the better of either their dex or strength to attack with. In fact, EVERYTHING that uses natural weapons does, it seems. I just can't find the page-number where it tells me that.
James? Little help here?
Edit: On second look-through... actually looking at the feats line... it seems all animals with a higher dex than strength actually TOOK weapon finesse as a feat! They don't have another feat along with it at one hit die.
Don't animals with a high dex all have wep fin as a bonus feat?
I think thats how they get around it with the core animals.. something the druid does not get to take advantage of, unless I am mistaken. (and I may be- I'm far from an expert on druids)
-S
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Don't animals with a high dex all have wep fin as a bonus feat?
I think thats how they get around it with the core animals.. something the druid does not get to take advantage of, unless I am mistaken. (and I may be- I'm far from an expert on druids)
-S
It's not even a bonus feat, they just all take it using their normal Feats. Which makes sense, but doesn't help a Druid much.
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Alright, I think I've got it. I'm making it WAY more complicated than it needs to be.
10 + Dex mod + Size mod + Natural armor = Total AC
At least for most cases. I realize that a ring of protection would carry over as it is a magical AC bonus and not physical armor. Some spells would also add to AC while in Wild Shape. More or less though, the above formula will hold true.
Thanks for putting my mind at ease. I've been pouring over Kingdom building for our Kingmaker session and have just about burned myself out. In addition, I'm making spreadsheets for the most common forms I might take. Wires got crossed and I wanted to make sure my methods are correct before making mistakes.
Thanks for putting my mind at ease. I've been pouring over Kingdom building for our Kingmaker session and have just about burned myself out. In addition, I'm making spreadsheets for the most common forms I might take. Wires got crossed and I wanted to make sure my methods are correct before making mistakes.
Been there. Some days I think spread sheets may cause a special type of psychosis that hasn’t been recognized by scientists yet.
I think the people discussing weapon finesse are over looking something. what normal animals do is irrelevant. he's a person turned into an animal not an animal. given beast shape doesn't reference weapon finesse..
All animals with a size smaller than Small automatically use Dex instead of Strength when calculating CMB, if that's what is confusing you.
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All animals with a size smaller than Small automatically use Dex instead of Strength when calculating CMB, if that's what is confusing you.
This is true. It's irrelevant to Small creatures, and to normal attacks, but it is worth noting. And it's not just animals, it's a general rule for anything Tiny or smaller.
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Book and page reference?Even if true, this wouldn't apply to a Wild Shaped Druid.
Core book, p. 198 in the basic description of CMB. And it does apply to a Druid, because it applies to anything Tiny. Heck, it applies to Halflings under the effect of Reduce Person. Note that they still get a Size Penalty to it, they just use Dex instead of Str.
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Back with more questions.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers.
(Fly is not mentioned, but is modified in a variety of ways)
I am under the impression that when my character uses Wild Shape to take the form of an Eagle (Small), he will gain the +2 size bonus for Fly checks. Is this correct? If so, this would obviously go the other way too, so a large creature would suffer a -2 size penalty to Fly checks.
When Wild Shaped into a creature that possesses poor, good or perfect, and of appropriate level to take advantage of higher skill, are these special bonuses/penalties applied to Fly checks?
If my character passes a DC 15 Fly check and hovers in place while flying does this count as a move action? Is it possible to cast full round spells (Natural Spell feat) while flying? Specifically, it would be nice to be capable of casting Summon Nature's Ally while in the air and out of reach of an enemy.
When Wild Shape modifies my character's ability scores, say +2 Dex, does this increase skill checks (Fly, for example) associated with that ability?
I created a document that covers all the various animals, elementals, and plants that druids can wild shape into. It's rather long but it is comprehensive. I should note that there is one house rule in there and that is I allow Sprint because Jet is allowed. In my opinion, that's one of the reasons one would want to change into a cheetah. If you don't want to use that house rule, it's very easy to delete or ignore.
You can find it here
I'm always open to suggestions on how to improve it so feel free to let me know what you think.
That's pretty useful Bob!
I'm still in the middle of working up an excel calculator for wild shape. About 60%-70% of the way there actually, just need more hours in the day.
That's pretty useful Bob!
I'm still in the middle of working up an excel calculator for wild shape. About 60%-70% of the way there actually, just need more hours in the day.
I know what you mean. I was going to make a spreadsheet but this was easier for my players since they don't use computers at the table.
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So, it seems from Bob's sheet that Fly is effected by attribute changes, size bonus/penalty and a creature's poor, good or perfect fly "ability". Yes?
Can anyone comment on a previous question? If my character passes a DC 15 Fly check and hovers in place while flying does this count as a move action? Is it possible to cast full round spells (Natural Spell feat) while flying? Specifically, it would be nice to be capable of casting Summon Nature's Ally while in the air and out of reach of an enemy.
So, it seems from Bob's sheet that Fly is effected by attribute changes, size bonus/penalty and a creature's poor, good or perfect fly "ability". Yes?
Can anyone comment on a previous question? If my character passes a DC 15 Fly check and hovers in place while flying does this count as a move action? Is it possible to cast full round spells (Natural Spell feat) while flying? Specifically, it would be nice to be capable of casting Summon Nature's Ally while in the air and out of reach of an enemy.
My sheet accounts for size and dexterity changes. I tried to account for everything I could but if you see an error, let me know so I can fix it.
I believe that hovering is not a move action since you aren't moving. I could be wrong though. Personally, I think that is one of the advantages of hovering.
So, it seems from Bob's sheet that Fly is effected by attribute changes, size bonus/penalty and a creature's poor, good or perfect fly "ability". Yes?
Can anyone comment on a previous question? If my character passes a DC 15 Fly check and hovers in place while flying does this count as a move action? Is it possible to cast full round spells (Natural Spell feat) while flying? Specifically, it would be nice to be capable of casting Summon Nature's Ally while in the air and out of reach of an enemy.
If you succeed in the hovering check it is 'no action', if it fails you have to spend a move action.
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My sheet accounts for size and dexterity changes. I tried to account for everything I could but if you see an error, let me know so I can fix it.
I believe that hovering is not a move action since you aren't moving. I could be wrong though. Personally, I think that is one of the advantages of hovering.
Thanks, gentleman. I'll let you know if I find differences. I'm building a spreadsheet of my own as well. I'll share it, but am trying to get my formulas down solid. I'll show my work so that it is obvious how I arrived at my numbers. I'm not sure if I'm missing something or if there is a lack of cohesion as far as interpreting Wild Shape mechanics, or at least a lack of obvious rules in some cases. Anyway... I'm sure it will all click eventually.
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How do these formulas look for calculating Wild Shape?
Attack = BAB + STR mod + size mod
AC = 10 + DEX mod + natural armor + size mod + deflection + dodge + luck + insight
Touch = AC - natural armor
Flat-Footed = AC - DEX mod - Dodge
Size mod: Huge -2, Large -1, Small +1, Tiny +2, Diminutive +4
CMB = BAB + STR mod + special size mod
CMD = 10 + BAB + STR mod + DEX mod + special size mod
Special size mod: Diminutive -4, Tiny -2, Small -1, Large +1, Huge +2
Note: Creatures that are Tiny or smaller use DEX mod in place of STR mod to determine CMB.
Fly Skill = rank + DEX mod + size mod + maneuverability
Size mod: Diminutive +6, Tiny +4, Small +2, Large -2, Huge -4
Maneuverability: Perfect +8, Good +4, Average +0, Poor -4, Clumsy -8