Ok, so I know that the caster level of a magic item only matters for dispel attempts and magic item creation DC.
But, am I correct in my interpretation that when crafting a magic item, you only need your "caster level" when:
1) taking prerequisite feats
2) how many +'s you can give a weapon/armor (regardless of how you interpret the every 3 CL for a +)
So technically, someone could have just 3 caster levels, put a point into spellcraft ever level, take craft wondrous items, and technically never take another class that has a caster level?
|
Interesting question. Reading carefully the relevant item crafting table yields:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
As such, by strict RAW, I'd say you would be correct.
This actually sort of irks me as I'd like to think RAI would imply the caster level part was sacrosanct, but it's pretty clear above that the item creation feat itself is the only exception (that and spell prerequisites), and heck, given the 'master craftsman' feat, you wouldn't even have to dabble a few levels in a spell casting class to pull it off.
Were I DM'ing a group you were in, I'd likely nix this plan, but as far as the rules are concerned, I'd say it's worth a shot.
|
So technically, someone could have just 3 caster levels, put a point into spellcraft ever level, take craft wondrous items, and technically never take another class that has a caster level?
Correct. Most wondrous items have spells as prerequisites, so without progressing any further in a spellcasting class, this character would take a lot of +5 DC penalties when crafting anything that requires spells of 2nd level and above (or rely on others to supply the spells).
This was actually clarified not long ago.
Caster Level is NOT a prerequisite. You must have the listed caster level to create the item. If it was a prerequisite, it would be listed under the prerequisites. It is not, therefore cannot be bypassed.
That means no statboosting gear until L8.
This was actually clarified not long ago.
Caster Level is NOT a prerequisite. You must have the listed caster level to create the item. If it was a prerequisite, it would be listed under the prerequisites. It is not, therefore cannot be bypassed.
That means no statboosting gear until L8.
Could you please provide the source of clarification?
I don´t doubt it, but would be interesting.
This was actually clarified not long ago.
Caster Level is NOT a prerequisite. You must have the listed caster level to create the item. If it was a prerequisite, it would be listed under the prerequisites. It is not, therefore cannot be bypassed.
That means no statboosting gear until L8.
You are correct, caster level is not a requirement. It is only the case if the CL is listed under the 'Requirements' section. Here is what Sean Reynolds said on it:
Caster level is only a prerequisite for creating the item IF the caster level is LISTED in the Requirements section of the item (for an example, see amulet of mighty fists).
The text on page 460 is a little unclear and probably is derived from the (wrong) SRD text taken from the (wrong) DMG 3.0 magic item introduction (where Monte wrote it correctly, then someone changed it to something wrong and that's how it got published, and fixed in the errata for 3.0, and then 3.5 was written by updating the original 3.0 Word documents, which didn't incorporate the 3.0 errata, and thus went to print with wrong information again). Anyway, caster level is NOT a prereq unless the item's Requirement section specifically lists a caster level.
So you are reading it too restrictively. CL doesn’t need to be bypassed. You don’t have to be an ‘x’ CL to make an item, period. With the exception of the 3*CL for magic weapons and armor and certain wonderous items, like the Amulet of Might Fists, as in Sean’s example.
The only way CL is a limitation or requirement is in how it affects the roll of your DC.
Alternatively, that character could take master craftsman at 5th level and skip the spellcasting class entirely.
Master Craftsman funtions as the spellcasting class. You sign a craft or profession skill, get +2 on checks with it and your ranks count as CL then. You still need to take the item creation feat then and you can only take "craft magic arms and armor" and "craft wondrous items". Rings, wands, staves, scrolls, potions and rods are not possible this way.
The more i think on this, the weirder it seems.
Whats the difference between enchanting a spoon (wondrous item) and a ring (obviously forge rings)?
Well, I can’t speak for rings or potions, but I know with staves, wands, scrolls or rods you actually need the spells to put into the item. You cannot take a +5 DC to bypass that. So it makes sense why you couldn’t take those item creation feats for Master Craftsman.
Well, I can’t speak for rings or potions, but I know with staves, wands, scrolls or rods you actually need the spells to put into the item. You cannot take a +5 DC to bypass that. So it makes sense why you couldn’t take those item creation feats for Master Craftsman.
Not that I doubt you but where are you getting this? As far as I know the ONLY thing you can't +5 away is the crafting feat.
Well, I can’t speak for rings or potions, but I know with staves, wands, scrolls or rods you actually need the spells to put into the item. You cannot take a +5 DC to bypass that. So it makes sense why you couldn’t take those item creation feats for Master Craftsman.Not that I doubt you but where are you getting this? As far as I know the ONLY thing you can't +5 away is the crafting feat.
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
Note emphasis mine. The exception for spell-trigger and spell-completion follows right after the exception for the item creation feat. Therefore, I would say this is not something that can be bypassed, either.
And scrolls, wands, staves and rods fall under either spell-trigger or spell-completion items.
Master Craftsman funtions as the spellcasting class. You sign a craft or profession skill, get +2 on checks with it and your ranks count as CL then. You still need to take the item creation feat then and you can only take "craft magic arms and armor" and "craft wondrous items". Rings, wands, staves, scrolls, potions and rods are not possible this way.
The more i think on this, the weirder it seems.
Whats the difference between enchanting a spoon (wondrous item) and a ring (obviously forge rings)?
One thing should be noted about Master Craftsman though....it only works for ONE particular craft skill. Meaning, you would have to take it multiple times just to do Craft Arms and Armor (craft armor, craft weapons) and who knows how many times for Craft Wondrous Items (craft leather working? craft stone?)
At least that is how it reads to me. That is why I'm not so fond of the Master Craftsman feat...
"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
One thing should be noted about Master Craftsman though....it only works for ONE particular craft skill. Meaning, you would have to take it multiple times just to do Craft Arms and Armor (craft armor, craft weapons) and who knows how many times for Craft Wondrous Items (craft leather working? craft stone?)
At least that is how it reads to me. That is why I'm not so fond of the Master Craftsman feat...
"You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
You have to read the whole:
Ranks in your chosen skill count as your caster level for the purposes of qualifying for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item feats. You can create magic items using these feats, substituting your ranks in the chosen skill for your total caster level. You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item. The DC to create the item still increases for any necessary spell requirementsThis one skill emulates your caster level and class, skill ranks as CL and the skill with all boni to make the check if you succeed. Spellcasters would use spellcraft, you use your chosen skill.
You can still create any magic arms & armor or wondrous item, only limited by caster level.
|
However, the line "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." has been interpreted a couple ways.
One group believes you can only make items that have that craft skill associated in the description.
The other group reads "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." to mean that no matter what item you're making, you HAVE to use the skill you associated Master Craftsman with to make the check.
I just spent two hours looking through it and couldn't find -the thread- where it was quoted to me. I'm at a loss now.
I'm fairly certain a developer explained to me that magic item caster level isn't a requirement and cannot be bypassed, but I can no longer locate the post! We changed our game over it, so it has to be in there somewhere.
Hrm...
Well, i dont mind if you dont find it, because i like it if you can bypass it as a reqirement :)
Another question passed my mind though:
There are some rules how to customize magic item you create, but one thing is missing there. How do you create an item that awards feats to the wearer? There are some examples like the sylvan scimitar, but no rules i could find yet.
And how could i further enchant a luck blade (without wishes) or sun blade for example?
Anyone knows?
I just spent two hours looking through it and couldn't find -the thread- where it was quoted to me. I'm at a loss now.
I'm fairly certain a developer explained to me that magic item caster level isn't a requirement and cannot be bypassed, but I can no longer locate the post! We changed our game over it, so it has to be in there somewhere.
Hrm...
Well, if you can find it, please show it to us.
Because all the information I have seen, including the quote I had in my prior post from SKR, is that CL is not a requirement. So it’s not even that it needs to be bypassed, there is not even a +5 DC if the item you are making is above your CL.
Again, the only exception to this is crafting magic armor and weapons, where you need to be 3*CL of the enhancement bonus.
except several items say you deed x cl to make them depending on the bonus. mainly weapons bracers etc..
|
|
Okay so lemme ask the question which is answered here, but in such a round about way that everyone keeps asking for the same thing but keeps getting the round about answers;
In order to make a wonderous item, do you need to have the caster level listed for the item, not in the requirements section but the description, in order to craft it? Or can you simply make an item if you have the gold points and time to spend making it, and are able to make the craft check DC?
For example, could a fithth level sorcerer with craft wonderous items, eight thousand gold, a spellcraft modifier of +15 (5 ranks, +3 int bonus, +3 class skill bonus, +1 trait bonus and +3 skill focus[spellcraft]) and rolls an 8 on his spellcraft check totaling 23 to meet the DC of 19 (5 + CL9 +5 for not having 'speak with dead') to make the Robes of Arcane Heritage and successfully craft the item? Or would he have to wait until he is level nine to craft the item? Or bump the craft dc by +5 to a total of 24 in order to compensate for not being level 9?
(He would still have to make a craft or spellcraft dc of 19 as speak with dead is not a sor/wiz spell, but a cleric only)
Okay so lemme ask the question which is answered here, but in such a round about way that everyone keeps asking for the same thing but keeps getting the round about answers;
In order to make a wonderous item, do you need to have the caster level listed for the item, not in the requirements section but the description, in order to craft it? Or can you simply make an item if you have the gold points and time to spend making it, and are able to make the craft check DC?
For example, could a fithth level sorcerer with craft wonderous items, eight thousand gold, a spellcraft modifier of +15 (5 ranks, +3 int bonus, +3 class skill bonus, +1 trait bonus and +3 skill focus[spellcraft]) and rolls an 8 on his spellcraft check totaling 23 to meet the DC of 19 (5 + CL9 +5 for not having 'speak with dead') to make the Robes of Arcane Heritage and successfully craft the item? Or would he have to wait until he is level nine to craft the item? Or bump the craft dc by +5 to a total of 24 in order to compensate for not being level 9?(He would still have to make a craft or spellcraft dc of 19 as speak with dead is not a sor/wiz spell, but a cleric only)
In short: Yes.
Minimum level required to cast Speak with Dead is 5th, so the item's minimum caster level is 5. Which is what the CL of the robe would be in this case. The DC would be... 19 I guess (personally I think it'd be 15, but that doesn't seem to be the general consensus around here. At least it wouldn't be 24.)
|
|
In short: Yes.
Minimum level required to cast Speak with Dead is 5th, so the item's minimum caster level is 5. Which is what the CL of the robe would be in this case. The DC would be... 19 I guess (personally I think it'd be 15, but that doesn't seem to be the general consensus around here. At least it wouldn't be 24.)
*Face palm* Okay, please clarify what you are saying "Yes" to. Yes he can make it, or yes he would have to wait till he was level nine?
I just spent two hours looking through it and couldn't find -the thread- where it was quoted to me. I'm at a loss now.
I'm fairly certain a developer explained to me that magic item caster level isn't a requirement and cannot be bypassed, but I can no longer locate the post! We changed our game over it, so it has to be in there somewhere.
Hrm...
It isn't a requirement so it doesn't have to be bypassed. It's in the second errata printing, the errata says
Page 460
In the Magic Items Description section, under Caster
Level, delete the last sentence of the second paragraph.
That sentence used to read "In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the items caster level(and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creators level)
That sentence has been removed
*Face palm* Okay, please clarify what you are saying "Yes" to. Yes he can make it, or yes he would have to wait till he was level nine?
That really wasn't clear from the rest of the answer?
*palm face* OW!
In order to make a wonderous item, do you need to have the caster level listed for the item, not in the requirements section but the description, in order to craft it? Or can you simply make an item if you have the gold points and time to spend making it, and are able to make the craft check DC?
Bolded is correct.
For example, could a fithth level sorcerer with craft wonderous items, eight thousand gold, a spellcraft modifier of +15 (5 ranks, +3 int bonus, +3 class skill bonus, +1 trait bonus and +3 skill focus[spellcraft]) and rolls an 8 on his spellcraft check totaling 23 to meet the DC of 19 (5 + CL9 +5 for not having 'speak with dead') to make the Robes of Arcane Heritage and successfully craft the item? Or would he have to wait until he is level nine to craft the item? Or bump the craft dc by +5 to a total of 24 in order to compensate for not being level 9?
Neither option is correct, although the last one (bolded) is the closest. The DC would still be 19. He would only receive the +5 DC for not knowing Speak with Dead. Normally, he would receive a +5 DC for not being high enough CL (where he could cast the spell). However, as it is a spell not on his spell list, that would cover both. He doesn’t get double whammied for not having sufficient level to cast it AND it not being on his spell list. Just not knowing the spell covers one +5 DC. At least that is how I understand the rules.
Now, I would agree with you that he should at least make a spellcraft check to identify the spell he is putting into the wonderous item, as it is not on his class list.
|
Okay so lemme ask the question which is answered here, but in such a round about way that everyone keeps asking for the same thing but keeps getting the round about answers;
In order to make a wonderous item, do you need to have the caster level listed for the item, not in the requirements section but the description, in order to craft it? Or can you simply make an item if you have the gold points and time to spend making it, and are able to make the craft check DC?
Despite my commitment to not get involved in magic item creation convos due to the fact that the rules are wonky, how's this:
In the general case, the CL listed for a given item is not a prerequisite. You don't need to be that CL. You can be any CL. Some of the other prerequisites may have an implied CL, but you can bypassthose prerequisites by an increased spellcraft check much of the time. EDIT: in the case of bypassing a spell prereq that has a minimum CL higher than your own, this generally shouldn't influence the resulting CL or DC unless the spell effect is replicated, in my thinking. The spell prerequisites, in themselves, are generally a close fit, not an exact fit.
The CL that sets the base Spellcraft check is not defined by the rules. Some are using the the CL listed in the item, but that CL was never intended to be used that way and results in inconsistencies. The FAQ passage about pearl of power doesn't address it, but implies that the CL of the item made is determined by the caster and could be much lower than listed in the item level. Why would CL used to set the Spellcraft check then be higher? FAQ Link
Some developer posts (by JJ, IIRC) have stated that a crafter can make an item of higher CL than he possesses, such as a wizard 5 making a wand of fireballs, CL10. I would not use this ruling.
For example, could a fithth level sorcerer with craft wonderous items, eight thousand gold, a spellcraft modifier of +15 (5 ranks, +3 int bonus, +3 class skill bonus, +1 trait bonus and +3 skill focus[spellcraft]) and rolls an 8 on his spellcraft check totaling 23 to meet the DC of 19 (5 + CL9 +5 for not having 'speak with dead') to make the Robes of Arcane Heritage and successfully craft the item? Or would he have to wait until he is level nine to craft the item? Or bump the craft dc by +5 to a total of 24 in order to compensate for not being level 9?
(He would still have to make a craft or spellcraft dc of 19 as speak with dead is not a sor/wiz spell, but a cleric only)
First off, the sorc can take 10 on the spellcraft check. This has been addressed repeatedly.
He doesn't have to wait to have CL9, as explained above.
The target DC is (5 (base), +5 (missing spell prerequisite) +CL.) Unfortunately, what the CL term is is undefined. If you take it to be CL9, your target is DC 19. If you take it to be CL5 (what he makes the item at), it is DC 15. To my thinking, he can make it, but at max CL5.
For those who feel that the DCs are too easy, the developers have said that's the intent. For those who find it too much of a change from 3.5, in 3.5, the item's DC was never part of the equation in any case.
Hope this helps. Unfortunately, there are elements of this section of the rules that are just plain undefined in the rules as written and you have to piece together an understanding based on your own mastery of the game, what little is in the FAQ, and the degree to which you want to hunt down and abide by developer statements within the forums.
I think this should clarify a lot:
A: (Official FAQ 8/18/2010) Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level. However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st. For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9n8m
You don´t need to have the caster level, you only need to be able to make the spell check. Even not having the spell can be circumvented with a +5DC. Personaly i think this can be done with UMI and some scrolls or wands or whatever or a friendly spellcaster aiding, possibly without raising DC at all. How else the Master Craftsman feat?
Also DC question become more clear if you look at this table:http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#TOC-Magic-Item-Creation
Minimum is lowest level of the spell possible and maximum your caster level. For cost low level makes more sense, never saw an magic item dispelled actually. If you dont know the spell or cannot cast it at all for whatever reason, add +5 to the DC and the lowest level of that spell.