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After beating someone into unconsciousness, can you cast Charm/Dominate on them and have them auto-fail the save?
After beating someone into unconsciousness, can you cast Charm/Dominate on them and have them auto-fail the save?
No. I can't find anything in the rules that says being unconscious causes you to auto-fail saves in general.
No and it's still date rape.
I believe the confusion comes from the magic description.
"Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing."
I presume this only applies to spells that affect willing targets?
Contributor
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I believe the confusion comes from the magic description.
"Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing."
I presume this only applies to spells that affect willing targets?
It's a fair question, but I think your presumption is correct.
While some spells might affect sleeping (i.e., technically unconscious characters), I would say that a spellcaster would need to be able to communicate with the unconscious character's mind in order to cast a mind-affecting (charm or compulsion) spell on him or her. If the spell doesn't specifically say it works on the creature's subconscious or sleeping mind, then I wouldn't allow you to cast it on a character who is asleep or knocked out without first entering the victim's unconscious mind in some way.
The unconscious is willing is more for the healing a downed party member or teleporting them out of combat. The beaten unconscious to low their saves seems a little cheap at the least and against RAI.
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While some spells might affect sleeping (i.e., technically unconscious characters), I would say that a spellcaster would need to be able to communicate with the unconscious character's mind in order to cast a mind-affecting (charm or compulsion) spell on him or her.
Interesting.
Personally, I'd say that the Charm Person effects the mind, conscious of otherwise, it being a [mind-effecting spell] after all.
As sleeping doesn't remove a targets mind then - Charm Person on a sleeping/unconscious target would be fair game.
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Or, if you prefer: The target of Charm Person does not need to be aware of your existence in order to be effected by the spell.
Of course, you may need to make them aware of your existence if you wish to take advantage of the spell's effects.
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Now, if it was a [language-dependent, mind-affecting] spell like Command then yes, I'd say that the target needs to be conscious/capable of understanding the language component of the spell.
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@ Fishy:
Charm person could be cast on a sleeping target, even if the target failed the save the target is still asleep. You need to wake them for the spell to benefit you...unless.
@ facist: THEN WHY THE CHARM SPELL?!?
By the RAW then, what is the correct way to rule this situation?
Spellcaster casts charm person on an unconscious (nonlethal damage) target.
1. Target gets Will save, rule as normal.
2. Spell fails, invalid target.
3. Target gets no save, auto-fail.
Spellcaster casts charm person on a sleeping target.
1. Target gets Will save, rule as normal.
2. Spell fails, invalid target.
3. Target gets no save, auto-fail.
1. in both scenarios, yes?
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hmm
Going by the excerpt you posted, I'd say no Will save.
May seem harsh but then so is a Coup De Grâce.
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@ Fishy: IN CASE WE GET STOPPED BY THE AUTHORITIES ON ROUTE TO THE WOODS
Mr. Fishy plays it, save fails target affected. Plus the target doesn't know you cast a spell on them if the save succeeds.
The target would be willing if awake the spell is unresisted, if the target would resist awake the target saves as normal.
An ally would allow a cure light spell if injuried, conscious or not.
An enemy wouldn't want to be teleported with the party, especially if he was unconscious. So if that worked you're in danger.
Hey, it's OK. Perhaps Kain is a DM who wants to have an NPC wizard Dominate the party rogue into coup de grasing (sp) various party members. Then it's OK, right? Evil grin! :D Because players would never want to exploit a rule and not want the DM to use such tactics too, eh...
The now awake Rogue who's companions were not woken up when the Evil Mage gave the Rogue a verbal command to kill his party members would get a saving throw against the spell.
Hey, it's OK. Perhaps Kain is a DM who wants to have an NPC wizard Dominate the party rogue into coup de grasing (sp) various party members. Then it's OK, right? Evil grin! :D Because players would never want to exploit a rule and not want the DM to use such tactics too, eh...
Just a DM who wants to be fair to the players.
BF, could you perhaps give the RAW that back said description up? That's what I'm looking for. I know how I would rule it off the cuff, which is 'no Auto-Fail Will saves ever'.
Also, for those interested, the player made a convincing case for the status of 'unconscious' and 'sleeping' as defined by the game mechanics to be separate. Thus the two different scenarios above.
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An enemy wouldn't want to be teleported with the party, especially if he was unconscious. So if that worked you're in danger.
What if the 'enemy' considered the party members friends - even after being beaten to near-death - and was attacked because he/she/it/misc wouldn't leave them be?
Huh?
HUH?
@ Benign little girl.
Mr. Fishy is not going to apoligize. You were told that Sebastian's parties are wild.
You lived.
>Shakes fin mockingly<
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I was defecating feathers for a week!!1!
>Mr. Fishy almost feels bad<
>Shakes fin less mockingly<
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>:D
...IT WAS YOU!?
Also, for those interested, the player made a convincing case for the status of 'unconscious' and 'sleeping' as defined by the game mechanics to be separate. Thus the two different scenarios above.
Sleeping and unconscious are definitely different. Unconscious is a game condition. Sleeping is not (technically).
The unconscious condition (as described) results from negative hit points, and you are considered helpless. You cannot regain consciousness from this state without healing.
A character that is asleep is merely helpless, and can generally be awakened via a standard action.
A sleeping character still gets perception checks (at -10), whereas an unconscious character presumably does not. Getting a perception check implies some level of consciousness.
Interestingly, one could argue that since a sleeping character is not unconscious (according to the game condition), a sleeping character is not treated as an automatically willing target. I'd house rule this otherwise.
In any case, a sleeping or unconscious character still gets Will, Fort, and Reflex saves (with a Dex of 0 in this case), and I'd allow for either to choose to be automatically willing for spells that only affect willing targets.
If Sleeping characters do make Will saves does that mean that benificial spells like Bless and Channeling Positive Energy to heal require Will saves?
I believe the confusion comes from the magic description.
"Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing."
I presume this only applies to spells that affect willing targets?
It's a fair question, but I think your presumption is correct.
While some spells might affect sleeping (i.e., technically unconscious characters), I would say that a spellcaster would need to be able to communicate with the unconscious character's mind in order to cast a mind-affecting (charm or compulsion) spell on him or her. If the spell doesn't specifically say it works on the creature's subconscious or sleeping mind, then I wouldn't allow you to cast it on a character who is asleep or knocked out without first entering the victim's unconscious mind in some way.
Well... dominate and Charm person don't require you to communicate with the subject. It actually lists loopholes like pantamime and telepathy... Sooo If you don't need them to acknowledge you, then I don't see why they would be able to resist while unconscious.
Especially with the above quote (I can never find what I want in the book...) But if characters who are willing, by nature forego their saves.... and unconcious characters are automatically Willing...
Then, I'd say it autoworks... O.O
If Sleeping characters do make Will saves does that mean that benificial spells like Bless and Channeling Positive Energy to heal require Will saves?
In those examples, neither have a Will save normally. Those don't change.
My reading is that with Charm Person, a sleeping character gets a will save. If an ally wants to Teleport the party while one character is asleep, that character can be considered a willing target, even though he does not have the unconscious condition.
Especially with the above quote (I can never find what I want in the book...) But if characters who are willing, by nature forego their saves.... and unconcious characters are automatically Willing...
Then, I'd say it autoworks... O.O
Unconscious characters are not automatically willing to forgo their saves.
Unconscious characters can be considered willing targets for spells that require willing targets (such as Teleport).
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you’re flat-footed or it isn’t your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
This is a different concept than foregoing a saving throw.
Voluntarily Giving up a Saving Throw: A creature can voluntarily forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell’s result. Even a character with a special resistance to magic can suppress this quality.
Being a willing target != being willing to accept a spell's result.
I think I need to correct myself a bit. I believe that sleeping creatures are not automatically considered willing targets, after more thought. The reason for this is that they are not "unconscious", and therefore can choose whether or not to allow being a target of a spell that only targets willing creatures.
With this perspective, a PC can Teleport with an unconscious ally or opponent, or a sleeping ally (if the ally chooses). However, a player cannot target a sleeping opponent, unless the opponent allows it.
No house rule needed to treat sleeping chars as automatically willing targets, since they are free to make that choice.
I concur with that. So does charm person work on someone you've bludgeoned into unconsciousness?
I think an important thing to remember here is that... if the target is asleep then they are also helpless in addition to unconscious they have no defense. If a character has been beaten to unconsciousness then they are also helpless.
Helpless states that you are at your opponent's mercy. IMO this means they are willing for all spells/effects. As someone stated above you can Coup De Grace them, but they're still resisting your spells?
As for using a Cure spell on an unconscious ally, they do not allow you to cast it on them (as normal), they don't have a choice.
If the character was conscious and helpless this would be a different case.
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I'd give them a save. They might be unconscious, but you don't cease to exist just because you're not conscious. Your mind is still there, and I see will saves as a mind thing. Just like being unconscious doesn't render your body incapable of fighting off poison with a fort save. Heck, you even get reflex saves.
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I believe the confusion comes from the magic description.
"Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing."
I presume this only applies to spells that affect willing targets?
Belatedly, I think this is right. If the spell has a different effect on "willing targets", unconscious creatures are included with willing creatures for that purpose. However, even a "willing target" gets a saving throw unless the spell says that it doesn't, or it chooses to forego the save. Charm person has no such text, the victim can't and doesn't choose to forego his save, so he gets one.
I'd give them a save. They might be unconscious, but you don't cease to exist just because you're not conscious. Your mind is still there, and I see will saves as a mind thing.
I see your point, but I'm still on the "your mind is defenseless" side.
Just like being unconscious doesn't render your body incapable of fighting off poison with a fort save.
The body has auto defense mechanisms, i suppose that the mind could be argued to have such defense mechanisms... let's think about a movie like inception.
Heck, you even get reflex saves.
Now the following scenario doesn't make much sense at all.
Villian: You're at my mercy now! *begins casting* Fireball!
(Dodged by the unconcious guy on the floor!)
Begrudgingly, I guess if we give saves on Fort and Will to those that are unconcious, then we should give them to Reflex saves (in the most game balancing sense).
However, the Reflex save bit does not sit well with me.
I will try to find the thread since this debate has come up before, but I think the automatically willing only applies to spells that are labeled as harmless.
PS:I will try to find it if I can't prove the above point anyway.
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The mind has a powerful, subconscious component to it which could act as an auto defense mechanism.
Consider that saves are sort of an abstraction of things. When you make your save on a fireball, you're not actually diving out of the area. It's a combination of luck, your positioning, and the heat diffusion of the spell. The character might be unconscious, but he's still one lucky son of a gun.
PRD:Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn). Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing.
That part only refers to spells that are limited to willing targets such as teleport.
Teleport
School conjuration (teleportation); Level sorcerer/wizard 5
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Range personal and touch
Target you and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
You will notice that at the beginning the paragraph starts off talking about spells that are restricted to willing targets. Then it goes on to say when you can declare yourself to be willing target. It then goes on to say what happens if you are incapable of making a decision, and who is not automatically willing even if they are helpless or otherwise impaired.
The mind has a powerful, subconscious component to it which could act as an auto defense mechanism.
Consider that saves are sort of an abstraction of things. When you make your save on a fireball, you're not actually diving out of the area. It's a combination of luck, your positioning, and the heat diffusion of the spell. The character might be unconscious, but he's still one lucky son of a gun.
Curse your "logic". *shake fist*
@wraithstrike
Only the spells with a "willing target" descriptor auto succeed if they are unconscious it seems. (of course an ally would always say they are willing).
A fun trick might be to teleport the unconcious person to about 50ft up in the air. Oops. Like an egg.
The mind has a powerful, subconscious component to it which could act as an auto defense mechanism.
Consider that saves are sort of an abstraction of things. When you make your save on a fireball, you're not actually diving out of the area. It's a combination of luck, your positioning, and the heat diffusion of the spell. The character might be unconscious, but he's still one lucky son of a gun.
Curse your "logic". *shake fist*
@wraithstrike
Only the spells with a "willing target" descriptor auto succeed if they are unconscious it seems. (of course an ally would always say they are willing).A fun trick might be to teleport the unconcious person to about 50ft up in the air. Oops. Like an egg.
PRD:
ConjurationEach conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
Even if you are teleporting with someone they are still being transported to your location. This idea also came up before.
Curse you Bulmahn!
"Unconscious creatures are automatically considered willing, but a character who is conscious but immobile or helpless (such as one who is bound, cowering, grappling, paralyzed, pinned, or stunned) is not automatically willing."
*shakes head*
"Dear diary; JACKPOT! Giggidy! Giggidy! Aaaaaalriiiiiiight!"
(Am I the only one picturing Glenn Quagmire from Family Guy when reading that sentence?)
And yes, the willing is for spells that have the "harmless" descriptor on the save, I think. Otherwise, a good will save will ruin the efforts of your friendly casters. "We must flee! Teleport!" "Crap! Made my save. Roll up a new character? Yeah, thought so."
And yes, the willing is for spells that have the "harmless" descriptor on the save, I think. Otherwise, a good will save will ruin the efforts of your friendly casters. "We must flee! Teleport!" "Crap! Made my save. Roll up a new character? Yeah, thought so."
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn).
This would seem to suggest that you could declare yourself willing at any time.
And yes, the willing is for spells that have the "harmless" descriptor on the save, I think. Otherwise, a good will save will ruin the efforts of your friendly casters. "We must flee! Teleport!" "Crap! Made my save. Roll up a new character? Yeah, thought so."This would seem to suggest that you could declare yourself willing at any time.
Some spells restrict you to willing targets only. Declaring yourself as a willing target is something that can be done at any time (even if you're flat-footed or it isn't your turn).
You can always voluntarily fail a save, which has the same mechanical result as saying you are willing, but since not all spells have "willing" in the save section, they are for official purposes two different things.
You can always voluntarily fail a save, which has the same mechanical result as saying you are willing, but since not all spells have "willing" in the save section, they are for official purposes two different things.
True. But, I was speaking specifically to spells with the willing clause. So thorough...
If Sleeping characters do make Will saves does that mean that benificial spells like Bless and Channeling Positive Energy to heal require Will saves?In those examples, neither have a Will save normally. Those don't change.
My reading is that with Charm Person, a sleeping character gets a will save. If an ally wants to Teleport the party while one character is asleep, that character can be considered a willing target, even though he does not have the unconscious condition.
HAHAHA! That's our Kingmaker party fighter, Marcus. We got attacked by a paluda in the middle of the night while camping, the party wizard cast Stand (we were using 3.5 at the time), and then Slid him into the way of the paluda while he was asleep, and of course the sleeping fighter woke up when the creature took a swipe at him. Could be considered [i}willing[/i], I would think not, but... our party metas everything, so it's okay.
Logic based consensus is then the following:
An unconscious creature gains a Will save against charm person. The spell does not specify 'willing only'.
An unconscious creature can be teleported. The spell specifies 'willing targets', and an unconscious creature is always considered 'willing'.