Monk damage, Enlarge, Lead blades, and Cloak of the manta ray

[Magicdealer]

Apologies for the weirdness of the question.

First off, does enlarge and lead blades stack for monk unarmed damage?

If so, starting at 2d10, and adding 3 size increases, what would the damage end up as?
2d10>3d10>5d8>6d10?
*sigh* I'm running with the assumption that the number is as close to 1.5 dmg increase per size increase as possible.

Cloak of the manta ray provides a tail attack for 1d6. Can this attack be used at any time, or only in water? Is the damage for this attack based on size, and would it go up in damage with the enlarge/lead blades combo, or would it remain a proud and unbent 1d6?

[Tarantula]

I don't think lead blades affects monk unarmed attacks. I say this because it explicitly states "melee weapons you are carrying". Lockjaw/Strongjaw on the other hand would work (and better!)

[Ksorkrax]

I agree to Tarantula. Even if it would work on bare hands, I see the bonus damage of the monk as applying Qi Gong, hurting the enemy with channeled Chi (real world shaolin monks can use this to pierce thick glass with thrown sewing needles). (and if you stay RAW, bare hands just don't qualify as "melee weapons" as in the spell's description)

As or the cloak, remember that you became a manta ray. You can not move on land. While you got the sting, how do you attack an enemy who can just take a step back? (I assume that you move heavily during a fight, even if you stay at one square) I'd forbid attacking with the sting for that reason.
If he's stupid enough to grapple you in this situation, ok, he's clearly in range and not moving.
What I'd allow too is the useage of the Strike Back feat via sting.

[Riku Riekkinen]

I would allow Lead Blades to affect Monks unarmed because (from Monk Unarmed description):

"A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

If someone insists you have to carry the weapon (and doesn't see monk carrying his weapons all the time), use Brass Knuckles.

[Phage]

Adding in brass knuckles or any of the gauntlets that affect monk's strike looks like it would make it compatible with lead blades since you now have something to make lead.

But by the same logic, Strong Jaw enhances all natural attacks in the same fashion since your fleshy hands are basically a slam. Plus Strong Jaw is a better spell (all your attacks would increase by 2, not by 1).

Cloak on the Manta Ray does give you a RAW tail attack...granted it seems obviously counter to the RAI that is saying the cloak would look like normal leather unless wet. RAI looks like it would only function when submerged in salt water, but again it doesn't explicitly state that you need to be in Manta Ray form to make use of the tail.

You could always discuss it with your GM as to whether or not he would like you use the tail freely since it does come with a pretty steep price tag.

If you're just looking for free natural attacks you could pick up the orc adopted trait and then snag their orc bite, which is equally as unrealistic except this is more clearly RAW and would cost you two feats.

[Mojorat]

interesting I just looked up lead blades. I do not believe would affect monk unarmed damage at all. the monks class abilities are irrelevant I'n this. the spell does not target your weapons.

so the monk somehow gets lead blades, nothing happens to his fist but the Kama I'n his belt goes up.

lastly I know this comes up for monks a bit but how do all these monks even get the spell lead blades cast on them? it is personal.

[Bobson]

It's certainly unclear whether lead blades would affect a monk. They'd have to UMD a wand or have dipped ranger to even get access to it, but if they did, it still interacts weirdly.

Monk wrote:

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

Lead Blades wrote:

All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are.

There's no question that you can cast things that target "weapon touched" like Magic Weapon on your fists. But there's no rules either way on whether they're considered to be "carried" in the same way that a sword is. Logically, I'd say it should affect it, but it's vague enough that a GM could rule either way.

Separately, it's unclear whether or not you can stack Lead Blades and Strong Jaw. They both let the weapon in question deal damage as if you were larger than you actually are. But they're not polymorph effects (so both could be active), and they don't list a bonus type. So it's a question of whether two 'as if' effects stack. I'd be inclined towards no, but again a GM could easily interpret it otherwise.

As for the cloak, strong jaw would affect it, but a monk couldn't flurry on the same turn they make a natural attack, so it'd probably be pretty useless to them.

[Sleep-Walker]

Hello,

I am more interested in the cloak of the manta ray than the lead blades question: My party has one as well. RAW it seems to say that while worn you get a tail attack, regardless of whether you are a Manta Ray at that point.

I havn't pushed the issue with my DM, but I am interested in others opinions.

[Purplefixer]

Cloak of the Manta Ray appears to need an errata to 'Cloak of the Sting Ray'. Manta's don't have a tail spine, they have a tail slap. Stingrays have a poisonous tail-stinger, which you would not normally be given from the Beast Shape II spell.

I believe the cloak turns you into a LARGE stingray (Beast Shape II does large, stingray sting is 1d4, not 1d6, but a Large ray would increase one die size), so it seems that if Lead Blades affected natural weapons it would. You can be a Manta Ray with arms though, so Lead Blades increases the weapon damage while leaving the tail at 1d6.

My 2cp.

[Phage]

Well the concept of Lead Blades is to magically increase the weight/density/purity of the blade to make it denser, stronger, whatever. For a straight up fist, you don't really have any metal on you so it seems very anti-RAI that you could use Lead Blades on your fleshy fists.

1st However, there are multiple items that stack on your fists, like gauntlets or brass knuckles. Because there exists metal weapons that use punching damage, it seems like a perfectly reasonable and logical route to require the monk to use one to gain the benefits of Lead Blades. This would definitely be RAW, though 1 size increase without the weapons isn't that great.

2nd However, is that Strong Jaw looks like a perfectly legal and superior buff to cast on a monk's fist in place of Lead Blades. Because your unarmed strike can function like a natural attack you could get Strong Jaw casted on you and get double the increase.

Personally I would lean towards Lead Blades and Strong Jaw applying the same type of buff and should not stack. Three notches up for a large monk would take their per punch damage from 4d8 => 12d8. While monk definitely could use some TLC, letting their Flurry of Blows or iterative attacks deal up to 84d8 base damage before str/pa/ele damage...bit much. This would obviously depend on the game since you should aim to keep characters about the same relative output level (versus one monk dealing 75% the damage and a fighter 25% when both focus DPR).

For Cloak of the Manta Ray remember that it is a pretty steep cost for a very limited use item. The tail is only 1d6 damage and costs just shy of a +3 weapon. Assuming you did not need the water breathing you could just ask your GM to change it to a lizard (or whatever has a tail) to make more sense why you would have a tail out of water. For aquatic campaigns it would be identical output and Paizo does have the value and primary status for the tail. Depending on the melee prowess of the player in question you could always reduce the tail from primary to secondary since it would be harder to attack with it out of water.

RAW lists Strong Jaw and Lead Blades as untyped buffs that would stack and going by the exception rules for unarmed strike being affected by mechanical and natural weapon bonuses, fists should always be applicable for both.

RAW Cloak of the Manta Ray says you gain a tail attack without restrictions and then other benefits that only apply to being underwater.

RAI has some obvious issues, but that would be completely dependent on your GM and how the above would fit into the campaign.

[Magicdealer]

Ok, let's substitute strong jaw for lead blades to take the question out of it.

Monk base damage is 2d10 at level 20, or earlier with a monks robe.

So 2d10 becomes 3d10 with enlarge
With strong jaw, the effective size goes up two more notches.
3d10 becomes, what? 5d8? Which then becomes 6d10? Is that reasonable?

Since strong jaw increases natural attacks, would the cloak of the sting ray then qualify for the damage increase?

Or since the attack is actually provided by the cloak, is it locked into 1d6?

Now, on the point of using the monk flurry with the cloak attack, what throws me off on the whole thing is the wording of the attack.

"The cloak does allow the wearer to attack with a manta ray's tail spine, dealing 1d6 points of damage. This attack can be used in addition to any other attack the character has, using his highest melee attack bonus."

First off, it doesn't talk about the attack actually being a natural attack. Then, the attack bonus isn't at -5, as natural attacks used in conjunction with melee weapons are.

Because of this, I'm not sure if it *is* a natural attack, or merely an additional attack. If it is a natural attack, I think the size effects would increase the damage, and cause issues with the monk flurry. If it *isn't* a natural attack, I'm not sure it would be affected by size changes at all.

[Pirate]

Yar!

According to the PRD (published by Paizo as the Pathfinder RPG reference document) the progression would be this:

2d10 -> 4d8 -> 6d8 -> 8d8 -> 12d8

It does not go beyond that.

This progression is extrapolated from THIS TABLE cross referenced with the progression sown in THIS FEAT.

As for the cloak's extra attack... that is a whole new can of worms. There are a few ways to interpret what exactly it does and how it interacts with various situations. You could say that the extra attack is simply that. It is not a natural attack, it is an item providing and extra attack. The attack looks like an extension of a creature (you), but it is still you using an item that gives you an extra attack, the weapon being the cloak. OR, you could interpret the item as allowing you to use a limited version of the Beast Shape II spell (A legitimate line of thought, as the item does reference this), then you could argue that you are actually polymorphed, and thus the tail attack IS a natural attack, and thus it's damage can be increased via increasing it's size. There is the issue of the rule that specific trumps general. In this case, the specifics of the item (which says how much damage it does) trumps the general damage dice by size rule.

In the end, how the cloak interacts is a DM call, as there are many ways to interpret how the cloak interacts with various rules. Though I assume that there will be some debate here on just that.

~P