I play a gnome monk ranger. Go ahead and laugh. He will laugh with you.
I created him to try out playing a Pathfinder gnome. Since his stats all rolled out in the 13 to 15 range, ranger seemed a good choice. His tracking and stealth skills were useful in the Burnt Offerings and Skinsaw Murders modules of the Rise of the Runelords adventure path. When the Advanced Players Guide came out, I switched him over to the Ranger - Guide variant.
Between the first and second confrontations with the Big Bad at the end of the Skinsaw Murders, he reached sixth level and multiclassed to monk (the second confrontation involved crashing a formal dinner, with my character walking in the front door unarmed and unarmored. This is not a spoiler, because our DM wrote the second confrontation herself after we lost the first). A sidestory about how he had trained as a Monk of the Four Winds during his ranger training but gave it up for the safety of studded leather armor fit neatly into his backstory.
I love the cheerful impish personality of my gnome. Surprisingly, he became the party leader, directing them with folksy wisdom intermixed with comic relief. The problem is that the current party composition has forced him to stand in the front line. With a strength of only 14, he is more a speed bump than a combatant (except for the two times per day he calls upon Ranger's Favor).
My gnome can readily request the spells of a Druid, Sorcerer, and Battle Oracle for buffs, but as party leader, he would rather concentrate on buffing the Battle Oracle, the Rogue, and the NPC allies into top effectiveness.
Is there some way to make him useful as a frontline combatant in the long run as I level him up? The usefulness does not have to be damage; for example, his gnomish sense of style would be happy with simply setting up opponents for the Rogue to sneak attack. I am considering going for Improved Feint and Greater Feint or maybe Improved Dirty Trick and Greater Dirty Trick, and have already taken Combat Expertise as a prerequisite. Multiclassing again is also an option, but I would hate to see his Base Attack Bonus shrink away to worthless.
Given that you already have Combat Expertise, and given his impish nature, I'd go with Improved Trip/Greater Trip, but I have a special affinity for them. Also think about Combat Reflexes and feats that give you additional ways to threaten AoO's. Another option is to go the dodge/mobility/spring attack route.
Is there some way to make him useful as a frontline combatant in the long run as I level him up?
First Idea...
Monks are amazingly good at grappling, since they get to Flurry while the enemy whose wrist they are holding usually has only a standard attack. Since your monk does not do much damage, have an ally take care of that role. You can be helpful grappling and then using flurry to trip and disarm, while your allies dish out the damage to the weakened foe.
Second Idea...
If grappling sounds too dangerous, go with the already recommended Spring Attack route. Combine this with Improved and Greater Dirty Trick. Usually blinding foes is enough to turn the tide of combat.
(I don't know your monk's level. Consider that at Monk 6 you can skip Dodge and go straight to Mobility, at Monk 10 you can go straight to Spring Attack).
Third idea...
If you are a ranged attack flavor Ranger then Flurry poisoned shuriken. Let the poison HP damage compensate for the lower STR damage.
(I've tried to make the incomplete poison rules more complete. Perhaps you and the GM can agree to something like that.)
HEY!! Don't dis me - I've got a gnome barbarian knocking around somewhere. Maybe we could get together and swap road stories :DI play a gnome monk ranger. Go ahead and laugh. He will laugh with you.
The first character I created in D&D 3rd Edition was a gnome paladin. Back in AD&D (AKA 2nd Edition) paladins had to be human.
The Pathfinder gnomes are even more fun than the D&D gnomes.
First Idea...
Monks are amazingly good at grappling, since they get to Flurry while the enemy whose wrist they are holding usually has only a standard attack. Since your monk does not do much damage, have an ally take care of that role. You can be helpful grappling and then using flurry to trip and disarm, while your allies dish out the damage to the weakened foe.
I ought to mention my gnome's stats and feats.
Character Name: Abu Sa'id Gorgani (named for an astronomer)
Background: Gnome, Lawful Good, worships Desna, from Sanos Forest.
Str 14 Dex 14 Con 11 Int 15 Wis 15 Cha 14
Hit Points 52
Ranger Guide level 5 / Monk of the Four Winds level 3
Odd-Level Feats: Fleet, Iron Will, Power Attack, Combat Expertise
Ranger Feats: Endurance, Two-Weapon Fighting
Monk Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Dodge, Evasion
I forgot his Constitution was so low. He was not meant as a frontline fighter.
Abu has Improved Grapple already. Grappling was the second reason he multiclassed to monk, because while he could not hit the Big Bad I mentioned earlier, he heroicly grappled her to let his teammates have a chance.
Can he really use Flurry of Blows while grappling? That might be D&D 4th Edition rules. The Pathfinder rules say,
Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple): move, damage, pin, tie up.
...
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Though it looks like Greater Grapple would allow Abu to damage twice on his turn. I wonder whether he could use Elemental Fist during one of them.
I like this idea.
Abu took the ranger's Two-Weapon Fighting combat style, but since Flurry of Blows makes that mostly redundant, my DM will let me pick from another combat style for the 6th level ranger feat. I have persuaded her that my gnome wants "monk" combat style, picking from the list of 6th level monk bonus feats. Greater Grapple is not on that list, but Improved Trip and Mobility are.
It is amusing how Abu's choice of feats foreshadowed him converting to monk: Fleet is like the monk's Fast Movement, Iron Will is like the monk's good Will save, and Two-Weapon Fighting is like the Flurry of Blows. It is as if he had some monk training mixed in his ranger training--which is why the DM is letting me mix monk and ranger feats.
As Far as i know You cant Actually Grapple Twice (i may be wrong) Once you have started the grapple i think the only Grapple related thing you can do is maintain?
That Said with Greater Grapple you could Just Maintain as a Move then Use your Standard to Punch them and then use Elemental Fist.
Pft, real men melee on gnome sorcerers. I don't need your strength or BaB or access to weapons...>_>
I am having trouble understanding "melee" as a verb. Are you saying that my gnome should become a sorcerer so that real men can beat up on him better?
Getting a +1 small longsword is cheaper, more available, and more effective than getting Permanency on a Lead Blades spell. Abu needs only one hand free for a grapple or Flurry of Blows. Though both together are cheaper than a +2 weapon. Alas, our adventure path has had few monetary rewards, so Abu can't afford either.
The party's Battle Oracle knows Enlarge Person, so my gnome could be buffed with that spell. First-level buffs don't take away from serious buff spells for the other party members.
I looked into Greater Grapple for my gnome ranger monk. It will work as his 9th-level feat, but the Bestiary reveals that many monsters have high CMDs. So he needs a future option that is not opposed by Combat Maneuver Defense.
Phage's suggestion of Improved Critical might fit the bill. It would combine well with the many attacks in a Flurry of Blows, especially since my DM lets Abu treat a short sword as a monk weapon because that is the weapon he used during his fictional monk training.
Nevertheless, my gnome can take Improved Feint as a bonus feat. Afterwards, Greater Feint would let him set up victims for our Rogue. With a ranger's skill points, he could learn to bluff well. He is having to bluff in social situations anyway.
Which would be better as his 11th-level feat, Improved Critical or Greater Feint?
The problem is that you're trying to play a role that requires support to compensate for your shortcomings (size, strength, etc), but aiming to be self-sufficient.
Actually, I am aiming for my gnome to be support. Rather than trying to optimize my character, I am trying to optimize my team. Instead of going for the best gnome ranger, I am going for the gnome ranger that best serves the party.
In our party, the half-elf Sorcerer is not a combatant. The gnome Druid is a spellcaster build, not a wildshape combatant. The half-elf Rogue is a Spring Attack specialist, so he won't be holding the front line. Our elf archer Ranger NPC won't be on the front line. That leaves the elf Battle Oracle and my gnome Ranger Monk keeping our adversaries away from the spellcasters and archer. Asking for first-level buff spells from our Battle Oracle, Druid, and Sorcerer is fine, but we don't have enough second-level buff spells to go around.
Grappling looks like a superior option to Feint, plus you already have IG and IUS so you could get GG at 9.
Yes, I have decided to take Greater Grapple at ninth level and will be trying more grappling at my gnome's current level. Posting to this messageboard has been a success in guiding me to that path. Thank you all.
My more recent questions are considering what to do after that. If our party encounters a creature that is hard to grapple, does my gnome fall back on Flurry of Blows or should I train him in yet another specialty, such as Improved Critical? Should he take more monk levels (watching his BAB fall behind at fifth-level monk), more ranger levels (too bad I took the wrong combat style), a prestige class, or another base class?
Actually, since you are LG, you might want to take two levels of Paladin, Erastil might be good, or just go for an ideal. You would get smite evil which would help you overcome DR, and the charisma boost to your saves. The smite would stack with your ranger focus on long fights, and would make you much more of a threat in the front.
Oh, and Horizon Walker might be a good way to go too. Its got Full BAB and Terrain Dominance allows you to turn favored terrain bonuses into favored enemy bonuses. And the various terrains give you extra bonuses as well, sometimes spell like abilities, and things like darkvision, tremorsense, and flight.
Actually, since you are LG, you might want to take two levels of Paladin, Erastil might be good, or just go for an ideal. You would get smite evil which would help you overcome DR, and the charisma boost to your saves. The smite would stack with your ranger focus on long fights, and would make you much more of a threat in the front.
My gnome is devoted to Desna, a chaotic good goddess, but it turns out that is not a problem for multiclassing to Paladin. Cleric and Inquisitor require a close alignment to the character's deity, but Paladin requires Lawful Good, regardless of the deity. My gnome worships Desna because it fit the Swallowtail Butterfly Festival in honor of Desna at the beginning of the Rise of the Runelords adventure path and it fit a happy wandering gnome ranger. He did not start Lawful, but he befriended the local sheriff and kept the party organized, so the DM declared him Lawful.
I crunched the numbers and two levels of Paladin offers slightly less than two more levels of Ranger: one smite evil per day at +2 to hit and +2 damage and bypassing damage reduction versus one more ranger's favor at +4 to hit and +4 damage, lay on hands versus a second-level ranger spell, etc. But it is very close, and I like the belly laugh of considering a gnome ranger monk paladin of Desna. The Paladin's Diplomacy skill could tip the balance, because my gnome is the party spokesman.
IMO, you are not support in the classic sense, but offering front line utility. This is different from being the person offering the buff spells or aiding since all your contributions require attack rolls.
Yes, the classic definition of support involves not standing within melee weapon's reach of an opponent. But aside from that, except on the two occasions per day that my gnome calls ranger's favor, he does not deal significant damage, the usual role of a front line party member. I want front line utility from him, but front line support, such as grappling an opponent to protect the other front line party members, seems a better role than trying to turn him into a damage dealer.
Aside from maybe a dash in a second class, level dipping generally nets you worse stats than focusing in a single class. Getting lay of hands is likely not going to be worth another higher tier of Ranger spells.
Since you already had levels in Ranger and Monk I would suggest look at what abilities you want in each and aim to get them, though honestly (besides your sweet roleplay/background) that combination seems really inefficient with terrible synergy...
Yes, my gnome Abu is stuck in a Catch 22. A lot of value of class abilities like Ranger's Favor and Unarmed Strike is that they increase with the class level. Multiclassing again would forfeit those increases. But his current mixture of classes is going nowhere.
If the only Ranger spells were the ones from the Core rulebook, which follow the D&D tradition of giving the Ranger less flashy Druid spells, then laying on hands would be superior to the higher tier Ranger spells. On the other hand, the APG has better Ranger spells. On the third hand, the Ranger can prepare only one more spell per level, which is not enough to get excited about.
The key distinction is not really where you are standing Mathmuse, but what your actions are dependent upon. In this case they require you making successful attacks, which you're playing with a disadvantage of low strength, small size, and less than full BaB. It's not about the damage, but your accuracy and success rate of combat maneuvers, make sense?
Let's run through those numbers again. Five levels of ranger and three levels of monk mean that Abu is only one point short of a full BAB progression, and that missing point is counteracted by the +1 BAB from small size. His low strength is his only weakness on attack rolls. And he does not have enough Dexterity to make Weapon Finesse an effective solution.
Abu can attack just fine. He is the second best player character in my party at successful melee attacks. Only the Battle Oracle is better. The Rogue's 3/4 BAB progression and Weapon Finesse give him an equal to-hit roll, but the Rogue loses a few melee opportunities while getting into flanking position for his sneak attack damage.
Abu's deficiency is that he deals insignificant damage, except against key opponents for whom he invokes Ranger's Favor. Pathfinder offers ways to increase Abu's damage, but they require focusing his character development on that alone. That is inefficient when the party already has ways of dealing damage. Instead, I tapped the expertise of this forum to find other paths for Abu.
Your disadvantages in the front line will pose problems and I suggest you get with your GM to figure out some solutions or ideas that would work with his campaign and your play style. It is by no means preventing you from accomplishing your goals, but it is unnecessarily hindering your performance.
Working with the GM is no problem. I have been married to her for over 25 years. I was extraordinarily lucky and wedded a gamer girl. But with great luck comes great responsibility. I share the duty of making the campaign fun for everyone. The true measure of my gnome's performance is how much he helps everyone enjoy the game, both GM and players.
For my gnome to punch an ogre, dealing 1d4 + 2 unarmed strike damage plus 1d6 Elemental Fist damage, is to be personally effective. But for my gnome to grapple that same ogre, so that the Rogue can stroll around him and sneak attack without risk of Attack of Opportunity and the Sorcerer can sigh a breath of relief that the ogre is going to be busy breaking the grapple rather than breaking the Sorcerer's bones, is to be truly effective.
My plan for ninth level is Greater Grapple. However, that is a feat. It gives no clues whether I should advance Abu as a Monk or as a Ranger or even as a Prestige Class such as Horizon Walker.
Size is a -1 penalty for CMB accuracy, not a +1 bonus.
That is netting you a -1 size, a -1 from base BaB, and a -1 from your strength penalty.
The 3rd level in monk grants maneuver mastery, which means he uses his full monk level for CMB. Only a +1 so far but every little bit helps.
The mobs you're facing might be easy enough to successfully hit/grab/whatever, but comparatively speaking to what a medium character could be doing, you're likely facing at least a 25% if not higher reduction in accuracy.
Is this relevant? A medium-sized fighter with the right feats would be better at Abu at both melee and grappling, but since that medium-sized fighter is not in our party, Abu is the one doing the job. The question is not "Is Abu best at grappling?", but "Is grappling the best alternative for Abu?" And so long as Abu is in the front line, the answer is yes.
Pulling Abu from the front line is not wise, because the spellcasters need his protection. The Battle Oracle understands battlefield control, but the Sorcerer and Druid have not grasped that concept (i.e. the players do and don't understand). Abu is still educating the Sorcerer and Druid on buffing before blasting. I claim he knows that because he trained in the defense force for Sanos Forest, which would rely on gnome rangers cooperating with gnome spellcasters.
You could also talk to your lady about creating a prestige class that would focus on the aspects of monk and ranger that you want to improve. It seems like neither of the bonuses you're trying to get out of them would be mutually exclusive play styles, only that there are many base class level dependent abilities. None of the existing prestige classes looked worthwhile for a ranger and a monk.
We are working on that. It is a set of alternative class features for Ranger rather than a prestige class. Abu's ranger combat style has been switched over to "monk" style. This means that at sixth level ranger, he will get to pick from the list of sixth level monk bonus feats for his ranger combat style feat. We replaced his redundant Two-Weapon Fighting feat with a feat that lets him use any light or monk weapon during Flurry of Blows. Yes, those changes are trivial, but we are trying to be fair. The goal is to create a combat style and alternative features compatible with monk limitations, such as no armor, or reducing monk limitations, such as only monk weapons, in non-abusive ways.
The other side of the coin would be to create alternative class features for Monk that complement the Ranger side. Surely the monk ethic of perfecting the body can work with the ranger ethic of harmony with nature. We have no ideas on this yet. So Abu might abandon further Monk levels. The biggest question in that case would be whether he should take fourth level Monk before quitting that class.
As a further complication, Abu's role is no longer as party ranger, but as party leader. That is why Oterisk's suggestion of Paladin made a pleasant daydream. Abu is going to have to concentrate more on Bluff and Diplomacy than on Handle Animal and Survival. I am hoping that Pathfinder is flexible enough to let a Ranger take over such a role. After all, Aragon, future king of Gondor, from Lord of the Rings was the original ranger.
Suggestions from this forum on homemade alternative class features would be welcome.
Thank you, everyone, for the suggestions. Unfortunately, a twist of fate will prevent me from using them soon. My wife's migraine headaches have persisted to the point where she is stepping down as DM and I am stepping up. Plus, she is spending the next game session out of town to see a medical specialist. In-story events make it a good time for Abu to depart temporarily from the party, so I won't have to run a game and a character at the same time.
On the first floor, he was a successful speed bump again, keeping the ogres away from the spellcasters and archers, except the Druid, who rushed past him. All strikes from his Flurry of Blows missed, but an Elemental Fist strike after moving to the Druid hit. The\at ogre remained standing until the Rogue took him down.
Abu tried one other grapple later, on Jaagrath Kreeg. I rolled a one. The DM ruled that when Abu lunged at Jaagrath's arm he instead caught hold of the shaft of Jaagrath's ogre hook, swung about it like an gymnast on the parallel bars, and landed flat on his back on the opposite side of the ogre leader.
No party member and no friendly NPC within 50 miles of Fort Rannick can cast Restoration to cure Abu's Wisdom Drain. So he is traveling home to Sanos Forest to find healing. Somehow, Abu will be unavoidably delayed and the party will finish the module without him.
When my wife feels better, Abu will return to the party from his mysterious side quest, leveled up to match the rest of them. Hopefully, the new party leader will want to keep the position, so that Abu can return to being comic relief, which he likes much better.