Hello, We just finished a lvl 10 campaign and one of the players is leaving in Two weeks to teach out of country. Hes offered to Dm a game at 18th level for two sessons since we havebeen wanting to try it.
I have a pretty good grasp on the games mechanics to around lvl 10 but only once ever played near this high and that was years ago. i haeve a fairl solid plan for this But needed advice on a few things.
lvl 18 alchemist
at 20 pt buy im going for 14 14 14 14 10 10 (strdexconintwischa)
after r5ace and lvl adjusts 16 14 18 10 10. This isnt optimal but i generaly aim for balanced stats. Given the only other person in our group with a good grasp of optimization is the one DMing im perfecty comfortable if this lay out is a little weak. One of the other Pc's has already said he plans to use the 18 levels to make a potato salid char so being a little sub par for theme is fine
My basic plan is Exotic weapon bastard sword, to use a large bastard sword supported by buff spells like Giant form 1, and Enlarge im not sure which other formula to take
So first question is, do the size benefits from Enlarge and Giant form 1 stack (i know the bonuses do not but i was not sure about the gain in size)
Assuming they do stack, what is the Dice damage of a Gargantuan bastard sword?
For Discoveries i am currently aiming for stuff to support my self buff heme expecially with potions
So Eternal Potion, Extend Potion... the one that lets me treat them as my level int bonus times a day.
Grand Mutagen, and Greater Mutagen.
Dispelling bomb
Im currently unsure about other Discoveies, as i envision the character now i plan to use the bombs for utility maybe the smoke or incindiary. But i dont know how useful these are at thi level (i found the smoke really useful for a low level game though)
So should i still take swift bombs? just for when i need it or even just to do multiple dispells a round?
Lastly for Extracts
In our level 10 game the end fight ended a bit anticlimactically when our witch who just got level 10 turned the bbeg into a drooling idiot with Feeblemind.
so what can i do at this level to avoid the instant death?
I assume death ward
I was looking at spell immunity but saw its lvl 4 and bellow and not sure what spells beyond phantasmal killer to be immune to.
Anyhow i rambled on a bit to sum up the basic theme is turn into a giant and hit things with a big sword fueld by mutagens and extracts.
Final note i unfortunately dont have alot of say in Gear unfortunately. Dm said for the Two session game We'll have been kidnapped from various material planes and be in a prison somewhere on some as yet un-named dimenson.
We'll be geting 'our' gear back but the Dm is assigning it to us. Though i did ask him if he could slip that Suit of armor that lets you turn into a giant in there even if it is hide +3 being able to turn into a bigger giant would fit my over all plan of play.
You need to look at Master Chymist , you talking about going melee and going Large and MC is the best way to do this, note its brutal ability only applies to simple weapons.
read Ogre's guide its got just about everything you need to know
as far as avoiding death effect and save or suck effects alot of them are will saves again master chymist has a very nice ability that allows you to reroll failed will saves a round later with your alter ego.
the only consistent defense against game ending effects are high saves so a cloak of resist +5 is highly useful.
Throw in a level or two of Barbarian for rage and go the Master Chymist route.
I love the Alchemist because the max you need in your Int is really only 16. Sure, your splash saves might be low, but other than that, there is no spell DCs to worry about.
I looked at master chemist even examined using beast shape 3 to become a huge animal with imp natural attacks and that ranger Druid spell that bumps damage 2 categories. I'm not entirely sure what a charging gargantuan rhino with horn damage bumped 4 categories does but it probably hurts.
but I decided on the giant theme and lvl 8 alchemist lvl 10 master chemist I think is only cl 15 so no lvl 6 spells.
I liked the sword idea but admit throwing boulders with the + 6 to damage extra then bashing woth a club ,ight be nice.
but the cl 15 and no sword was why my idea moved away From master chymist.
meh stud autocorrect.
Throw in a level or two of Barbarian for rage and go the Master Chymist route.
I love the Alchemist because the max you need in your Int is really only 16. Sure, your splash saves might be low, but other than that, there is no spell DCs to worry about.
what for you already get a +8 +6 +4 STR/DEX/CON from the mutagen/mutation, wasting a round buffing on rage when there's a slew of other short buffs you could also put on is a waste of 2 levels better spent on alch/MC to get higher spell levels.
I looked at master chemist even examined using beast shape 3 to become a huge animal with imp natural attacks and that ranger Druid spell that bumps damage 2 categories. I'm not entirely sure what a charging gargantuan rhino with horn damage bumped 4 categories does but it probably hurts.
but I decided on the giant theme and lvl 8 alchemist lvl 10 master chemist I think is only cl 15 so no lvl 6 spells.
I liked the sword idea but admit throwing boulders with the + 6 to damage extra then bashing woth a club ,ight be nice.
but the cl 15 and no sword was why my idea moved away From master chymist.
meh stud autocorrect.
btw unless your two weapon fighting or mixing weapon/natural your 3 natural attacks 0/0/0 will hit more often and do more damage than 4 iterative attacks at 0/-5/-10/-15.
there alos mutation to bump the damage dice of your bite/claw its pretty easy to get 4d6bite and 4d6 claws ,
also look at vital strike with a 4d6 bite you can be hitting with 16d6 attacks that make a joke of DR10
natural attacks qualify for the brutal bonus as well
If you want 6th level spells at lv18
Alchemist 11/Master Chymist 7 would work you'd still get brutal +4
but you'd really want to incorporate a level 6 spell into the build to make it worth it otherwise I'd stick with 5th level spells
+1 on alchemist 11/master chymist 7 to have 6th-level extracts, if you want to concentrate on combat in your mutagenic form.
Alternately, you can go with ranger (guide is probably more useful, but shapeshifter is more thematically appropriate) 1/alchemist 14/master chymist 3 and still have 6th-level extracts. Take Growth Mutagen as your Advanced Mutagen (so that your mutagenic form is always large) and carry a wand of lead blades. Large bastard sword (2d8) + enlarge person effect* (2d8 -> 3d8) + lead blades (3d8 -> 6d6) = a lot of damage; your BAB will only be +14, however. If you don't mind only having access to 5th-level extracts, a ranger 1/alchemist 7/master chymist 10 has extracts as a 14th level alchemist and a BAB of +16, not to mention a lot more improvements to the mutagenic form (at which point the giant form I extract is pretty much superfluous, since the size increase doesn't stack with enlarge person); also, a large morning star (2d6) + enlarge person (2d6 -> 3d6) + lead blades (3d6 -> 6d4) is still pretty much the same damage as the bastard sword when including the +6 for Brutality (and you save a feat). As an added benefit, you don't have to deal with the restrictions of rage on your actions.
*- Note that per the wording of Growth Mutagen ("When the chymist assumes her mutagenic form, she increases one size category, as if under the effects of an enlarge person spell"), the master chymist's equipment also increases in size.
@Phasics: Barbarians can enter rage as a free action, so they don't "waste a round." However, taking a level of barbarian does take away from gaining discoveries, more/more powerful bombs, more/higher level extracts, etc.
oh, I will look at alchemist 11 master chemist 7. I liked the idea of the eternal potion but I can live without itbi think.
If it were me I'd go gunslinger 5/Alchemist 7/ MC 6. nothing like claws and guns and bombs going giant form and blasting cannon ball sized ammo at stuff and hitting their touch AC and not caring how close you are because you are a big harry mutant bad mofo.
when I did my rough draft for lvl 18 alchemist vat work with mutagen and giant form and divine favour and haste it was 30 30 25 20 4d6 + 38.transformation can get it higher briefly but most of what it does doesn't stack with potential gear.
something like 32 str 22 dex 26 con.
the master chemist build does more damage though I'm not sure if the loss of versatility is worth it.
permanent displacement is rather nice, or any potion really.
I think I have most of my idea formed out. though I am not sure yet if smoke and incendiary bombs will be so useful. ended up taking iron will and imp iron will to shore up the will save though it's still potentially scary low.
what for you already get a +8 +6 +4 STR/DEX/CON from the mutagen/mutation, wasting a round buffing on rage when there's a slew of other short buffs you could also put on is a waste of 2 levels better spent on alch/MC to get higher spell levels.Throw in a level or two of Barbarian for rage and go the Master Chymist route.
I love the Alchemist because the max you need in your Int is really only 16. Sure, your splash saves might be low, but other than that, there is no spell DCs to worry about.
I accept that some players want to get to the highest level spell levels, but in alchemist, I personally don't think their higher level extracts are worth worrying over too much.
And for the record, entering rage is a free action. There is no wasting a round to activate rage.
when I did my rough draft for lvl 18 alchemist vat work with mutagen and giant form and divine favour and haste it was 30 30 25 20 4d6 + 38.transformation can get it higher briefly but most of what it does doesn't stack with potential gear.
something like 32 str 22 dex 26 con.
the master chemist build does more damage though I'm not sure if the loss of versatility is worth it.
permanent displacement is rather nice, or any potion really.
I think I have most of my idea formed out. though I am not sure yet if smoke and incendiary bombs will be so useful. ended up taking iron will and imp iron will to shore up the will save though it's still potentially scary low.
ya feat for will save are almost a must therwise the GM will enjoy turing your awsomeness against the party.
stink clouds are good for area denial and also function as obsucring clouds. force bombs for tripping can be useful better odds beucase it hits a save instead of CMD.
A good combo is throw force bomb make somone prone them run up and stand next to them, giving you an AoO if they stand up.
what for you already get a +8 +6 +4 STR/DEX/CON from the mutagen/mutation, wasting a round buffing on rage when there's a slew of other short buffs you could also put on is a waste of 2 levels better spent on alch/MC to get higher spell levels.Throw in a level or two of Barbarian for rage and go the Master Chymist route.
I love the Alchemist because the max you need in your Int is really only 16. Sure, your splash saves might be low, but other than that, there is no spell DCs to worry about.
I accept that some players want to get to the highest level spell levels, but in alchemist, I personally don't think their higher level extracts are worth worrying over too much.
And for the record, entering rage is a free action. There is no wasting a round to activate rage.
Alchemist makes a good dip for a barbarian but not the other way round alch has too many level dependant goodies esp in a Chymist build.
a barbarian can easily work a level or two of alchemist for the mutgaen goodness.
however in both cases the +4STR benefit is lost at high level when an extra +2 is meh for what it cost you. these dips really work best in low level campagains.
Well heres the Build, All stats are without any gear. (as i dont know what i'll get)
A few notes, the human heritage Giant thing is Valid far as i can tell But does nothing except make me a Victim of Banes and Favoured enemies and struggle at Dwarf Tipping. But i was stuck on a theme to make this fun.
Im not sure if Awesome Blow is Valid as Its unclear if I can get large size /and/ 25 str for 24 hours. Actually i think i may be 24 str For 24 hrs.
and going to ask the DM for a Frost Version of Incidiary Bomb that drops Sleet and ice. Fits with theme and seems Balancd
Anyhow did i make any apparent Errors this was Done mostly in my head. As i said at th ebeginning im sure for people experienced at this level i dont expect huge optimizaton from my group. Which is fine as it lets me go on theme.
Thogh i suspect the level will let them stumble on uberness just by accident. i thought of alot of silly combo's when figuring this out.
Skali the Frostmourn
Human Female Alchemist Level 18
Alignment CN HP 128
Str 16 dex 14 con 14 int 18 cha 10
Melee Large Bastard sword, +14/+11/+6 2d8 +4
Ranged Bomb +15 9d6+4
Discoveries
Extend Potion 2
Enhance Potion 4
Dispelling Bomb 6
Combining Extracts 8
Smoke Bomb 10
Greater Mutagen 12
Incindiary Bomb 14
Grand Mutagen 16
Eternal Potion 18
Feats
Exotic Weapon Bastard Sword 1
Human Heritage (giant) 1
Power Attack 3
Weapon Focus Bastard Sword 5
Furious Focus 7
Bull Rush 9
Imp Critical BAstard Sword 11
Awesome Blow 13
Iron Will 15
Improved Iron Will 17
Skills
Craft Alchemy +25 (+43)
Disable Device +23
Fly (+15)
Use Magic Device +21
Spellcraft +25
Knowledge Nature +25
Perception +21
Knowledge Arcana +25
Appriase +25
Survivl +11
by the way incindary cloud is kinda crap, 6d6 fire dmg is pretty meh at 18th level.
I would instead suggest Poison Bomb. As an Alchemist your immune to poison which means you can stand in the CON burning cloud and be immune while your enemies are taking at least 1 CON dmg per round.
you maybe right o n the int. the problem isi won't have any say I'n gear other than knowing it's level appropriat and probably split up similar to the suggested proportions I'n the book.
but I do know I'll have -2 to al my mental stats.
I will I think though go over the discoveries again ro see if I can free io some room.
I think what I want to do is emulate a mini giant and hit things with a sword (though I can thematically change this to a big hammer forMC. I think I focused ALOT on the idea of 1 potion permanently active.
I have time at work to crunch things I'll post a lvl 11or 12 alchemist lvl 6 or 7 !c build when I get home. ALOT of what people have said has madec lot of sense.
Poison Immunity would be loss from what I can see, but as long as you put 8 or less levels into MC you still get it.
Its only a loss if you plan on using poison bomb and exploting the fact you can stand inside it andbe immune while anything comming after you is going to take CON dmg.
Poison bomb is 12 Alch.
And I've tried running many a combo of Alch 12/ MC and it dosent gel that well mainly due to the lower BAB and loss of some Avd Mutgaens brutality etc and being so close to high level Alch abilites as well.
Its acutally a really well designed class and PrC becuase your always sacrifcing somthing decent for somthing else decent but geeze its frustrating as hell hehehe
if the cmapgain isn't going to 20th level have a look at a dip in MC for only 1-2 levels , gives you mutate and 1 avd mutagen , dual mind is a solid reason for doing this
I think after thinking on the way to the bus. I really have 3 choices.
1 go 8 alch 10 chymist feral and either drop the giant theme or adjust it to a troll thing. fir raw damage this is the most powerful build. it likely will be self buffed post 30 str and large 18 hours of the day and needs little buffing. it also has potential for silly short term boosts like huge animal with that ranger two size boost spell.
I decided against this I think internally before I made my post but saw the potential. but given the people I play with it may bee too extreme.
2 the second option, which I think I have mostly leaned towards is alch 18 though I may be able to adjust for 2 lvl of chymist for dual minded. for shirt periods thus car can buff to strengths. I can use a lvl 5 extract to reduce buff time to 1 round casting giant form and trigger transformation as an immediate action.
3 alch 11 chymist 7. of the two I can do my non feral theme with this is the strongest when no. buffs are involved.
I think I will likely go with 2 everyone has been a great help. though more opinions are welcom as I don't play til Sunday.