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Need to check my interpretation of how natural attacks work. So I have a barbarian player (two actually, same build) with the beast totem pathway. He gets TWO primary natural attacks (claws) and since he is a half orc he gets a second bite attack (secondary attack). He is level 6 so his BAB is +6/+1. Lets assiume he gets a further +7 ATT for STR etc In a full attack does his base ATT is +13/+8..
+13Claw/+13claw/+8bite (bite at -5 since it's secondary natural attack).
+13Claw/+13claw/+8bite and another +8claw because of his +6/+1 BAB (ie the itteritive attack). My reading of the rules says NO - no itteritive attacks due to high BAB.
If he chooses to use a weapon in one hand - he gets to use his other claw and bite - but as secondary attacks - so -5 ATT. He will however get the +6 and +1 att with his weapon due to his BAB. how do the two weapon fighting rules apply?
Is it +13sword/+8Sword and then +8Claw/+8bite (so two added natural attacks since he has two natural attack forms)
or +13Sword/+8sword and either +8Claw OR +8 bite(so only one additional natural attack which he can choose from)
My problem arises with the two weaoon fighting rules added in. In this case he could use his claw as a second weapon (?) and his bite as a additional secondary natural attack (?). This means he gets...
+7sword/+1sword/-2claw and his bite +8 without two weapon fighting feat (due to the -6/-10 penatly for two weapon fighting)
or +11Sword/+6sword/+6Claw and bite +8 with two weapon fighting (since claws are light off hand weapon).
My appologies if this idea has already been discussed in another post, I did try searching unsuccessfully and would appreciate any feedback.
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Need to check my interpretation of how natural attacks work. So I have a barbarian player (two actually, same build) with the beast totem pathway. He gets TWO primary natural attacks (claws) and since he is a half orc he gets a second bite attack (secondary attack). He is level 6 so his BAB is +6/+1. Lets assiume he gets a further +7 ATT for STR etc In a full attack does his base ATT is +13/+8..
+13Claw/+13claw/+8bite (bite at -5 since it's secondary natural attack).
+13Claw/+13claw/+8bite and another +8claw because of his +6/+1 BAB (ie the itteritive attack). My reading of the rules says NO - no itteritive attacks due to high BAB.
If he chooses to use a weapon in one hand - he gets to use his other claw and bite - but as secondary attacks - so -5 ATT. He will however get the +6 and +1 att with his weapon due to his BAB. how do the two weapon fighting rules apply?
Is it +13sword/+8Sword and then +8Claw/+8bite (so two added natural attacks since he has two natural attack forms)
or +13Sword/+8sword and either +8Claw OR +8 bite(so only one additional natural attack which he can choose from)
My problem arises with the two weaoon fighting rules added in. In this case he could use his claw as a second weapon (?) and his bite as a additional secondary natural attack (?). This means he gets...
+7sword/+1sword/-2claw and his bite +8 without two weapon fighting feat (due to the -6/-10 penatly for two weapon fighting)
or +11Sword/+6sword/+6Claw and bite +8 with two weapon fighting (since claws are light off hand weapon).
My appologies if this idea has already been discussed in another post, I did try searching unsuccessfully and would appreciate any feedback.
It goes as follows:
Single attack:Sword: +13
Single claw: +13
Bite: +8
Full attack, Natural Attacks only:
Claw +13/Claw +13/Bite +8
Full attack, Sword and natural weapons:
Sword +13/Sword +8/Claw+8/Bite +8
I don't think two-weapon fighting makes a difference as claws are still natural weapons and follow those rules.
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Full attack, Natural Attacks only:
Claw +13/Claw +13/Bite +8Full attack, Sword and natural weapons:
Sword +13/Sword +8/Claw+8/Bite +8I don't think two-weapon fighting makes a difference as claws are still...
That's what I thought but at the bottom of p182 it states under natural attacks...
"All of your natural attacks are treated as SECONDARY attacks, using your BAB minus 5 and adding only half of your STR mon damage. IN ADDITION all of your attacks made with melee wpns and unarmed attacks are made as if you were two weapon fighting"
This is the passage that causes problems. Also would this be overridden by the beast totem? This states claws are primary and add full STR mod. Since using weapons makes them secondary they now do 1/2 STR mod damage.
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Full attack, Natural Attacks only:
Claw +13/Claw +13/Bite +8Full attack, Sword and natural weapons:
Sword +13/Sword +8/Claw+8/Bite +8I don't think two-weapon fighting makes a difference as claws are still...
That's what I thought but at the bottom of p182 it states
"All of your natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks, using your BAB minus 5and adding only half of your STR nod on damage. IN ADDITION all of your attacks made with melee wpns and unarmed attacks are made as if you wrre two weapon fighting"This is the passage that causes problems.
Ah, misunderstood. In that case, I'd agree with your second option.
Sword +11/Sword +6/Claw +8/Bite +8It says your weapon attacks are affected. Your natural attacks ate already penalised.
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Ah, misunderstood. In that case, I'd agree with your second option.
Sword +11/Sword +6/Claw +8/Bite +8It says your weapon attacks are affected. Your natural attacks ate already penalised.
The answer is actually unclear. According to the Core book, this is correct. However, in the Bestiary, under Natural Attacks (page 302) it says "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type."
One interpretation of this contradiction is that anyone of the base races that PCs can take takes the penalty, but any monster doesn't, but I don't the idea of having different rules depending on which book you're from. Personally, I prefer the Bestiary interpretation, where natural attacks are just bonus - otherwise, all the spells granting natural attacks are worthless if you're not already a TWF or weaponless, because the penalties for TWF without the feat are really high.
Full attack, Natural Attacks only:
Claw +13/Claw +13/Bite +8Full attack, Sword and natural weapons:
Sword +13/Sword +8/Claw+8/Bite +8I don't think two-weapon fighting makes a difference as claws are still...
That's what I thought but at the bottom of p182 it states
"All of your natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks, using your BAB minus 5and adding only half of your STR nod on damage. IN ADDITION all of your attacks made with melee wpns and unarmed attacks are made as if you wrre two weapon fighting"This is the passage that causes problems.
Ah, misunderstood. In that case, I'd agree with your second option.
Sword +11/Sword +6/Claw +8/Bite +8It says your weapon attacks are affected. Your natural attacks ate already penalised.
Since there's 2 claws, it is sword, sword, claw -5, claw -5, bite -5
Since there's 2 claws, it is sword, sword, claw -5, claw -5, bite -5Full attack, Natural Attacks only:
Claw +13/Claw +13/Bite +8Full attack, Sword and natural weapons:
Sword +13/Sword +8/Claw+8/Bite +8I don't think two-weapon fighting makes a difference as claws are still...
That's what I thought but at the bottom of p182 it states
"All of your natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks, using your BAB minus 5and adding only half of your STR nod on damage. IN ADDITION all of your attacks made with melee wpns and unarmed attacks are made as if you wrre two weapon fighting"This is the passage that causes problems.
Ah, misunderstood. In that case, I'd agree with your second option.
Sword +11/Sword +6/Claw +8/Bite +8It says your weapon attacks are affected. Your natural attacks ate already penalised.
No, you have to give up a claw to use a sword in that hand.
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No, you have to give up a claw to use a sword in that hand.Since there's 2 claws, it is sword, sword, claw -5, claw -5, bite -5Full attack, Natural Attacks only:
Claw +13/Claw +13/Bite +8Full attack, Sword and natural weapons:
Sword +13/Sword +8/Claw+8/Bite +8I don't think two-weapon fighting makes a difference as claws are still...
That's what I thought but at the bottom of p182 it states
"All of your natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks, using your BAB minus 5and adding only half of your STR nod on damage. IN ADDITION all of your attacks made with melee wpns and unarmed attacks are made as if you wrre two weapon fighting"This is the passage that causes problems.
Ah, misunderstood. In that case, I'd agree with your second option.
Sword +11/Sword +6/Claw +8/Bite +8It says your weapon attacks are affected. Your natural attacks ate already penalised.
+1