So, I thought of this due to the "trip the prone person" threads, someone suggested I make it its own thread, so here we go.
How about bullrushing shield wielders with shield slam and greater bullrush? Going with Jim, Bob and Sally again. Jim and Bob both have greater bull rush, shield slam, and combat reflexes at +3 dex, along with all the pre-reqs. Jim is at A1, Bob at A2, and Sally at B2.
Jim makes an attack at Sally and hits with his shield, free bull rush attempt! As long as he's succeeds, Sally is bull-rushed towards C3, provoking Bob.
Bob makes AoO w/his shield, succeeds, bull-rushing Sally towards C2, provoking Jim.
Jim makes AoO w/his shield, succeeds, bull-rushing Sally towards C3 again, again provoking Bob.
Bob again makes AoO w/shield sending her back toward C2.
Jim again AoO's and off she goes for C3 again.
Bob makes his last AoO, sending her back toward C2.
Jim makes his last AoO, sending her toward C3 where she was originally headed.
How does this work? A) Jim hits 4 times and Bob 3? Or B) do you go reverse order, Jim's last hit sends her into C3, where neither threatened, so Sally got hit by Jim twice with his shield?
This gets really nasty if they add in shield spikes with wounding, or have another friend Joe who stands in D2, and can hit Sally for each bullrush (assuming he has the AoO for it). Even worse, Joe could have a trip weapon, and greater trip, and for the final hits, knock Sally prone provoking and making her provoke when she gets back up too!
Note, the fighter's can't flank, as then they would be bull-rushing each other, or at the very least, making Sally just end up prone instead of setting off the chain.
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So, I thought of this due to the "trip the prone person" threads, someone suggested I make it its own thread, so here we go.
How about bullrushing shield wielders with shield slam and greater bullrush? Going with Jim, Bob and Sally again. Jim and Bob both have greater bull rush, shield slam, and combat reflexes at +3 dex, along with all the pre-reqs. Jim is at A1, Bob at A2, and Sally at B2.
Jim makes an attack at Sally and hits with his shield, free bull rush attempt! As long as he's succeeds, Sally is bull-rushed towards C3, provoking Bob.
Bob makes AoO w/his shield, succeeds, bull-rushing Sally towards C2, provoking Jim.
Jim makes AoO w/his shield, succeeds, bull-rushing Sally towards C3 again, again provoking Bob.
Bob again makes AoO w/shield sending her back toward C2.
Jim again AoO's and off she goes for C3 again.
Bob makes his last AoO, sending her back toward C2.
Jim makes his last AoO, sending her toward C3 where she was originally headed.How does this work? A) Jim hits 4 times and Bob 3? Or B) do you go reverse order, Jim's last hit sends her into C3, where neither threatened, so Sally got hit by Jim twice with his shield?
This gets really nasty if they add in shield spikes with wounding, or have another friend Joe who stands in D2, and can hit Sally for each bullrush (assuming he has the AoO for it). Even worse, Joe could have a trip weapon, and greater trip, and for the final hits, knock Sally prone provoking and making her provoke when she gets back up too!
Note, the fighter's can't flank, as then they would be bull-rushing each other, or at the very least, making Sally just end up prone instead of setting off the chain.
Jim makes an attack at Sally and hits with his shield, free bull rush attempt! As long as he's succeeds, Sally is bull-rushed towards C3, provoking Bob.
Bob makes AoO w/his shield, succeeds, bull-rushing Sally towards C2.I would end it there as the original action needs to complete before Jim can take another one in my opinion.
But I totally see where you are going with this. RAW... it's tough.
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Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
An attack of opportunity “interrupts” the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then continue with the next character's turn (or complete the current turn, if the attack of opportunity was provoked in the midst of a character's turn).
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
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I would argue that the results of an AoO cannot cause another AoO.
Isn't there a rule somewhere where you don't provoke more than one AoO from a specific person due to movement? I'd probably rule this situation to be covered under that rule, especially since Sally never actually moves.
Edit: Found it.
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
I suppose you could argue that it says "more than one square" and since it is technically the same square, you would still provoke AoO's. I find that a bit silly however.
I imagine it like them playing ping pong with the enemy, I know they technically move with them but the mental image is to good to not let this work. I wont go into the rules on this one though.
Isn't there a rule somewhere where you don't provoke more than one AoO from a specific person due to movement? I'd probably rule this situation to be covered under that rule, especially since Sally never actually moves.
Edit: Found it.
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.I suppose you could argue that it says "more than one square" and since it is technically the same square, you would still provoke AoO's. I find that a bit silly however.
I would rather argue that it says, "Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." Sally isn't taking a move action while threatened (which is what provokes in that case). Sally is being bull-rushed with greater bull rush, which provokes the AoO.
Whenever you bull rush an opponent, his movement provokes attacks of opportunity from all of your allies (but not you).
Also Table 8-2 lists "Move Action: Move Attack of Opportunity: Yes" which shows that it is taking the move action which provokes. This is also supported because if you do not have greater bull rush, bull rushing someone out of a threaten square does not provoke any AoOs. It is the skill of someone with greater bull rush providing the opportunity.
Side note: This works MUCH better if the fighters are large sized. Since they can then leave 2 squares between them, and push Sally back and forth between them. (Assuming they either follow Sally back and forth, or can choose to fail/actually fail bull rushing each other) Also, I messed up, they each can take 4 AoOs, as Combat Reflex adds the dex bonus to the 1 AoO everyone gets.
The fact that GBR allows an AoO on the movement doesn't change the fact that the movement only allows one opportunity.
Rule breakdown:
General: You provoke an AoO by moving out of a threatened square that can be made by the creature threatening it. The source of the movement doesn't matter, as someone pushing you still counts as you moving.
Specific 1: You do not provoke an AoO if your movement is occurring due to a Bull Rush.
Specific 2: Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
Specific 3: If you possess Greater Bull Rush, your enemies movement provokes an AoO, like normal. This rule eliminates Specific Rule 1.
However, there is no specific rule that eliminates or changes Specific Rule 2. Therefore, you'd only get one AoO per round in this chain.
The fact that GBR allows an AoO on the movement doesn't change the fact that the movement only allows one opportunity.
Rule breakdown:
General: You provoke an AoO by moving out of a threatened square that can be made by the creature threatening it. The source of the movement doesn't matter, as someone pushing you still counts as you moving.Specific 1: You do not provoke an AoO if your movement is occurring due to a Bull Rush.
Specific 2: Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
Specific 3: If you possess Greater Bull Rush, your enemies movement provokes an AoO, like normal. This rule eliminates Specific Rule 1.
However, there is no specific rule that eliminates or changes Specific Rule 2. Therefore, you'd only get one AoO per round in this chain.
I disagree with your General. I would word it:
General: You provoke an AoO taking a move action to move out of a threatened square that can be made by the creature threatening it. Only a move action spend during your turn provokes this AoO.Specific 1: You do not provoke an AoO if your movement is occurring due to a Bull Rush.
Specific 2: This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.
Specific 3: If you possess Greater Bull Rush, your enemies movement provokes an AoO from all of your allies (but not you).
Because each instance of a greater bull rush is a different opportunity resulting from a different successful bull rush attempt, you provoke for each attempt.
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Sorry Tarantula movement is movement regardless of the action or lack thereof taken by a character. If I use a 5 foot step to walk off a cliff and then gravity makes me fall would I provoke for movement as I clearly moved more than just 5 feet in the round regardless of my action?
You can only provoke one AoO for movement from each character that threatens you per round.
--Schoolhouse Vrock
I disagree with your General. I would word it:
General: You provoke an AoO taking a move action to move out of a threatened square that can be made by the creature threatening it. Only a move action spend during your turn provokes this AoO.
So if I ready an action to move during your turn, that movement doesn't provoke an AoO?
I think the biggest difference we have is whether the AoO is coming from the movement that is forced from the bull rush or if the AoO is coming from the feat.
From the bull rush text: "An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless
you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat."
This makes be believe that the movement caused by a bull rush is handled under the normal movement rules.
I would allow it without hesistation. It requires two characters to spend 7 feats each (some of which are useful), and have a high dex to get a significant number of actions.
Apart from the requirements for it to be succesful also requires that they both hit the target and pass the CMB check each time.
Sorry Tarantula movement is movement regardless of the action or lack thereof taken by a character. If I use a 5 foot step to walk off a cliff and then gravity makes me fall would I provoke for movement as I clearly moved more than just 5 feet in the round regardless of my action?
You can only provoke one AoO for movement from each character that threatens you per round.
--Schoolhouse Vrock
I disagree that falling provokes AoOs. Do you rule that when someone teleports, they provoke once for casting and once for leaving the square?
So if I ready an action to move during your turn, that movement doesn't provoke an AoO?
I think the biggest difference we have is whether the AoO is coming from the movement that is forced from the bull rush or if the AoO is coming from the feat.
From the bull rush text: "An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless
you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat."This makes be believe that the movement caused by a bull rush is handled under the normal movement rules.
If you want to get technical on it, when your readied action goes off, it becomes your turn in the initiative, immediately before the trigger, once your action resolves, it resumes back where it was.
Example: You go on a 20, I go on 15. You ready your movement action. 15 comes around, I do whatever it is that provoked your movement. It becomes 15.1 and you make your movement, provoking. Once that is all figured out, it goes back to 15 and my turn resumes.so what happens if they all have paired opporunists,(the apg combat teamwork feat)?
Well, really they have a better chance of hitting, and they run out of AoO's faster. Certainly helps to get more AoO's off with the same actions. I'd say a good idea, if only for the +4 to hit.
Leads to a good idea though... assuming paired opportunists.
Jim greater drags/repositions Sally past Bob.
Bob makes his AoO for movement and shield bashes with greater bull rush.
Jim makes his AOO from Paired Opportunists(movement), and just hits for damage.
Jim makes his AoO for movement from the bull rush, and greater trips.
Bob makes his AoO from Paired Opportunists(movement) and hits for damage.
Bob makes his AoO from greater trip, and hits for damage.
Jim makes his AoO from Paired Opportunists(trip)
Jim makes his AoO from greater trip, and hits for damage.
Bob makes his AoO from Paired Opportunists(trip) and hits for damage.
All 4 attacks, only 1 each from movement.
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a
charge...You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.
You cannot Bull Rush as an AoO. You can only use an 'Off Hand Weapon' during a full attack action.
Bull Rush and Grapple are the only combat maneuvers you can't seem to use as an AoO.
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Hi, everyone ! Sorry to bump a pretty old thread.
It's a just that a question came to me as I was reading stuff about the sword and shield fighter.In every posts on every forum I've read, people seems to admit that Greater Bull Rush gives the AoO bonus even to a Bull rush attempt resulting from a Shield Slam. But I reread the feat and saw that line : "This bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity."
I may be misunderstanding but it sounds to me like that only sentence should prevail on the AoO from Greater Bull Rush. I'd really love that it doesn't but it's how I feel about the text.So, does everybody just don't care about that line or am I just misunderstanding ? And did Paizo said something about that ?
What I'd love is a PROOF of my interpretation being wrong.
I agree, that line should overrule any thing from Greater Bull Rush, since this is a specific bull rush from this feat. As Kefler said:
you are not doing a bull rush , you are getting a bull rush free from attacking with a shield.
That line from the Shield Slam feat only says that you, the one making the shield slam and making the free bull rush attempt, do not provoke an attack of opportunity for doing so (you would, normally, if you don't have the Improved Bull Rush feat).
It says NOTHING about Greater Bull Rush.