RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I just got off of an e-mail chat with a friend who's pretty upset.
He's been playing a Ranger / Hellknight in Pathfinder Society. Back in October, he lost his job, so he's been on a tight budget, and he appreciates PFS OP for the low maintenance cost.
You all see where this is going, yes?
He just found out today that his Hellknight PC no longer needs to bring pages from Pathfinder #27, but he now needs to buy the Inner Sea World Guide and update his character to the new PrC. He says that purchase is out of reach for him these days, and I believe it.
I suggested that starting another character at first level is not the end of the world.
But I thought I would ask here: is thee any chance that the Inner Sea World Guide might be one of those resources which GMs are required to have handy, so that players can assume they can access the material therein? Is there any clever work-around anybody can suggest, so that he doesn't have to retire his character?
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He just found out today that his Hellknight PC no longer needs to bring pages from Pathfinder #27, but he now needs to buy the Inner Sea World Guide and update his character to the new PrC. He says that purchase is out of reach for him these days, and I believe it.
I can understand that concern (having been laid off recently), but it looks like the pdf is only $9.99 vs the cost of the hard cover. And I assume he could then print the appropriate pages for use at games. Ten bucks isn't that bad for what is supposed to be a very useful book. I am not making light of his situation, however.
Even if it is not made Core Assumption, remind him that if he has a friend who he plays with and who buys the pdf, which will be one of the super cheap $9.99 ones anyway, that the friend can legally print out the pages needed and loan them to him for the duration of a scenario.
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The announcement is a bit confusing. It says existing is grandfathered in, but material must be converted.
"The Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting is no longer a legal source for new material. Gear, feats, or prestige classes already selected by existing characters is grandfathered into play, but any material updated in the Inner Sea World Guide must be converted in all cases."
That could mean that he is okay to use the character, and PrC, as written. Or it could mean that he does not have to retrofit the existing material, but would have to use the new version of the PrC moving forward.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I appreciate the thoughts. I was running into a wall about this, and I'm glad to have any help brainstorming any ideas.
tceidolon, we were addressing the pdf. Realistically, that's $10 he wouldn't have to buy food for his daughter, and that's not a realistic expectation. I was considering buying his a gift copy, but that's not really realistic, either.
TwilightKnight, the message specifically states:
"The 15-level Hellknight prestige class from Pathfinder Adventure Path #27: What Lies in Dust is no longer legal for play. Any PCs of this PrC must convert Hellknight levels to the newly sanctioned 10-level version in the Inner Sea World Guide."
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Realistically, that's $10 he wouldn't have to buy food for his daughter, and that's not a realistic expectation. I was considering buying his a gift copy, but that's not really realistic, either.
if $10 is the difference of buying a pdf or feeding his daughter, then he is not going to conventions, because he can't afford it, so he is only playing locally, which is not a problem, because I am sure someone there will have the book so he can update his PC and have the GM look at it if he asks.
It is really only a problem if he goes to Cons, which he can't.
seriously though, if $10 is the difference between feeding his daughter or buying a PDF, he should most likely stop playing PFS until he has a Job again, because there are other expenses involved that could be used for better use.
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This is a unique case (I think?). Most of the time, when a class is updated, it is during the playtest time and the players are well aware that the final version may require them to make changes. Of it's a v3.5 rule being updated for PF. However, I do not recall Paizo re-writing an existing PF class or PrC and re-releasing it. Perhaps a special exemption should be applied, similar to the grandfather clause or maybe a time allotment like before gaining another level, or something. Seems a bit harsh that a character would become unplayable, without prior notice (I was not aware the Hellknight was being re-written), until the player purchased additional resources. Perhaps s/he bought AP#27 specifically to legally play a Hellknight.
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seriously though, if $10 is the difference between feeding his daughter or buying a PDF, he should most likely stop playing PFS until he has a Job again, because there are other expenses involved that could be used for better use.
Agreed wholeheartedly. At this point, PFS should be no where near a priority.
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seriously though, if $10 is the difference between feeding his daughter or buying a PDF, he should most likely stop playing PFS until he has a Job again, because there are other expenses involved that could be used for better use.Agreed wholeheartedly. At this point, PFS should be no where near a priority.
Maybe not, but everybody deserves a break for fun. It's been mentioned countless times that role-playing is an extremely inexpensive hobby, especially if you already own the materials or a friend can lend you materials. I'd be willing to bet PFS isn't a "priority", but it probably is something he does to at least relax from time to time. I'm in a lot of agreement with Chris over this one, changing up materials which essentially force another purchase, even if that purchase is "only" $10 is a little unfair to a lot of people who may not have the cash to upgrade. It's one thing when we're talking a playtest, in those situations it's a known quantity that you will need to buy the book and upgrade the character; the changes to the Hellknight kind of came out of left field.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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aside -- I appreciate Dragonmoon and Joseph's concerns, but I should note that the gentleman in question is not starving. He's simply on a tight budget, and $10 for a hobby expense does require $10 come out of the budget somewhere else.
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't appreciate other people making those decisions for him.
(And, if it helps any, he plays in a home game "every couple of weeks" and at a local game store once a month. He's never attended big gaming cons.)
Mark, the previous Hellknight came out in Council of Thieves, which is a PFPRG AP. This wasn't an update from D&D 3.5.
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aside -- I appreciate Dragonmoon and Joseph's concerns, but I should note that the gentleman in question is not starving. He's simply on a tight budget, and $10 for a hobby expense does require $10 come out of the budget somewhere else.
I'm pretty sure he wouldn't appreciate other people making those decisions for him.
(And, if it helps any, he plays in a home game "every couple of weeks" and at a local game store once a month. He's never attended big gaming cons.)
Mark, the previous Hellknight came out in Council of Thieves, which is a PFPRG AP. This wasn't an update from D&D 3.5.
Another option is that since he generally only plays in a home game or a local game store is to wait until www.d20pfsrd.com has the updated Hellknight prestige class up, which he could then use to update his character.
As others have said he doesn't go to Cons, so it isn't as much of a problem. When he gets back on his feet, he should be able to buy the PDF / book for himself, but until then this is a good holdover.
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Mark, the previous Hellknight came out in Council of Thieves, which is a PFPRG AP. This wasn't an update from D&D 3.5.I stand corrected. :)
As a note though, that was one of the initial PFRPG APs when things were still being developed before the PFRPG came out. Meaning that there might've been some mistakes from that prestige class that they wanted to fix.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Another option is that since he generally only plays in a home game or a local game store is to wait until www.d20pfsrd.com has the updated Hellknight prestige class up, which he could then use to update his character.
As others have said he doesn't go to Cons, so it isn't as much of a problem. When he gets back on his feet, he should be able to buy the PDF / book for himself, but until then this is a good holdover.
Alizor, both my friend and I were under the impression that this wasn't legal -- that a player need to bring (a) a physical copy of the product, or (b) a print-out of a legal pdf with the player's name on it. (Or borrow such a thing from someone else at the table.)
Heck, I can tell him what's different: the three tiers of the class have gone, no more merciless power, lwfullness comes later, but several other abilities come sooner. But to play the character, he has to have the World Guide. Or so we've understood. If printouts from d20pfsrd are legal for PFS OP play, that would indeed make things easier.
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Alizor, both my friend and I were under the impression that this wasn't legal -- that a player need to bring (a) a physical copy of the product, or (b) a print-out of a legal pdf with the player's name on it. (Or borrow such a thing from someone else at the table.)
Heck, I can tell him what's different: the three tiers of the class have gone, no more merciless power, lwfullness comes later, but several other abilities come sooner. But to play the character, he has to have the World Guide. Or so we've understood. If printouts from d20pfsrd are legal for PFS OP play, that would indeed make things easier.
I think the idea is that home games don't usually follow the "you need the book" rules, and store games are usually close-knit enough that the coordinator will sometimes look the other way. It's conventions where the rule gets enforced most strongly.
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Another option is that since he generally only plays in a home game or a local game store is to wait until www.d20pfsrd.com has the updated Hellknight prestige class up, which he could then use to update his character.
As others have said he doesn't go to Cons, so it isn't as much of a problem. When he gets back on his feet, he should be able to buy the PDF / book for himself, but until then this is a good holdover.
Alizor, both my friend and I were under the impression that this wasn't legal -- that a player need to bring (a) a physical copy of the product, or (b) a print-out of a legal pdf with the player's name on it. (Or borrow such a thing from someone else at the table.)
Heck, I can tell him what's different: the three tiers of the class have gone, no more merciless power, lwfullness comes later, but several other abilities come sooner. But to play the character, he has to have the World Guide. Or so we've understood. If printouts from d20pfsrd are legal for PFS OP play, that would indeed make things easier.
It's not legal by PFS OP play, but what they're getting at is that in a localized environment as you've indicated he plays in, some discretion might be given due to the circumstances by the local GM's.
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Alizor, both my friend and I were under the impression that this wasn't legal -- that a player need to bring (a) a physical copy of the product, or (b) a print-out of a legal pdf with the player's name on it. (Or borrow such a thing from someone else at the table.)
Heck, I can tell him what's different: the three tiers of the class have gone, no more merciless power, lwfullness comes later, but several other abilities come sooner. But to play the character, he has to have the World Guide. Or so we've understood. If printouts from d20pfsrd are legal for PFS OP play, that would indeed make things easier.
Remember that the Play Play Play rule trumps all. If that little rule is the difference between him playing or not, then it is squashed by the mighty Play Play Play.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Remember that the Play Play Play rule trumps all. If that little rule is the difference between him playing or not, then it is squashed by the mighty Play Play Play.
Oh, MisterSlanky, I'll pipe up there. "Play, Play, Play" involves table size, and letting people replay particular scenarios for no credit. It doesn't let you sit at a table with an illegal character.
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Fair enough. But the general concern of PFS is still to get people playing. The character would be legal still, right? He just wouldn't have the support document in official form (an unofficial form, such as d20pfsrd, would still be needed, if just as a reference point). Turning someone who actively wants to play is always a no-no.
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Naah, your response wasn't nearly as exciting as what I'm used to from Dragnmoon.
The general concern about PFS is to get people playing, but there's the not-so-hidden agenda of getting people to buy products. If you let players start playing the game without needing to buy the books, you're hardly using PFS as the marketing tool it's meant to be. If I had to wager a guess, I'd say that the whole "you need the book to use the content" thing is pretty hard and fast.
Now back to the original comment. In this case a player obviously went out of his way to buy material that was overwritten by newer material. In the case of the content of the original Guide, that material is grandfathered in, so you don't need to buy the Inner Sea Guide. I would hope that Mark would indicate that players who have the original Hellknight material can use the new material as long as they bring their original AP.
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Now back to the original comment. In this case a player obviously went out of his way to buy material that was overwritten by newer material. In the case of the content of the original Guide, that material is grandfathered in, so you don't need to buy the Inner Sea Guide. I would hope that Mark would indicate that players who have the original Hellknight material can use the new material as long as they bring their original AP.
The Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting is no longer a legal source for new material. Gear, feats, or prestige classes already selected by existing characters are grandfathered into play, but any material updated in the Inner Sea World Guide must be converted in all cases.
It's pretty apparent that the only 'grandfathered' in things are things from the old Campaign Setting that were not updated.
Very specifically "any material updated in the Inner Sea World Guide must be converted in all cases"
Besides the grandfather rule only applies to the Inner See World Guide as its predecessor is now illegal for play (except for the grandfather clause)
That being said, most local orgaizers would 'look the other way' when it came to having the book in this particular case.
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With the local GM being there and from what the others have said I am sure that your friend could get by as was mentioned with the original document (AP #27) for the Hellknight PRC. When he can afford it though he should at least get the PDF of the Inner Sea campaign setting then.
Trust me I know for sure that money is tight too. The economy is tight and jobs are hard to come by. But maybe your friend could ask for gift certificates for holidays and the like to his favorite game store or even Paizo online. Even ask for the books primarily as a gift too? I know life is tough though and when it comes to feeding a child or getting a book... well the child should eat :)
I wish your friend luck too! :)
Director of Brand Strategy
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We want all PFS players to be using the same, current rules for their characters, including things that sometimes get updated. We chose to make the standard, baseline Hellknight the version that is printed in our core, hardcover setting book over a support article in a two-year-old Adventure Path volume.
All your friend needs in order to make the conversion is a printout of the two pages from the pdf to bring to the table; he does not need to have a physical copy of the book nor a printout of the entire pdf.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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The underlying point is that is exactly the sort of mistakes that people make with Play, Play, Play all the time. =)
Yeah, this isn't something that falls under PPP. All efforts should be made to allow someone to play, but I don't want to open the Pandora's Box that I fear could result in people using PPP as a justification for using purposely illegal characters because the alternative is being turned away.
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but I don't want to open the Pandora's Box that I fear could result in people using PPP as a justification for using purposely illegal characters because the alternative is being turned away.
Mark it is already happening,
People use Play, play, Play! for justification to go against any "rule" in the guide, which leads to why I Hate Play, Play Play!...
ok, hate is a strong word, More like, dislike it's current wording.. ;)
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but I don't want to open the Pandora's Box that I fear could result in people using PPP as a justification for using purposely illegal characters because the alternative is being turned away.Mark it is already happening,
People use Play, play, Play! for justification to go against any "rule" in the guide, which leads to why I Hate Play, Play Play!...
ok, hate is a strong word, More like, dislike it's current wording.. ;)
I think the guide being on the back burner for official update is starting to wear thin on players. It needs to get out.
I have to point out time and time again rules update from the forum's here and frankly I am getting tired with it. As most of my players are using the out of date Guide to PFS play.
Lastly, Where is the sticky to the rules changes for the new Inner Sea Guide?
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I think the guide being on the back burner for official update is starting to wear thin on players. It needs to get out.
I have to point out time and time again rules update from the forum's here and frankly I am getting tired with it. As most of my players are using the out of date Guide to PFS play.
Lastly, Where is the sticky to the rules changes for the new Inner Sea Guide?
Darius, I'm a little unclear as to what you are referring, but if you are referring to what I think you are referring (can I use the word "referring" again? Yes I can!) then you need look no further than HERE. All legal PFS sources beyond the "core assumption" can be found there, and it is completely up to date.
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We want all PFS players to be using the same, current rules for their characters, including things that sometimes get updated. We chose to make the standard, baseline Hellknight the version that is printed in our core, hardcover setting book over a support article in a two-year-old Adventure Path volume.
All your friend needs in order to make the conversion is a printout of the two pages from the pdf to bring to the table; he does not need to have a physical copy of the book nor a printout of the entire pdf.
While I understand updating the rules to use the new Hellknight, I don't like removing the ability to play a once legal character just because it's ability has been revised. It feels a bit like pulling the rug out of under the character, they followed the rules to use the class, but then the rules changed. If they want to keep playing that character, they have to pay extra $10.
I am not turned off by the idea of conversion, but by the idea that one is charged extra to continue playing a Hellknight (despite the fact that I own the book already.)
And, someone correct me if I'm wrong, unless you are a subscriber to the Campaign Setting line, you don't have the option to purchase the Campaign Setting pdf until the 23rd. Not being a subscriber means that you can not play your Hellknight character for most of the month, then you get the option to pay the money for the PDF at which point you are allowed to play once again.
This doesn't happen often at all, but it might have been preferable to offer a conversion document to the players with What Lies in Dust and let them continue to play with the AP issue in hand. At the very least, you could have waited until the end of the month to remove the What Lies in Dust from the Additional Resources list.
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And, someone correct me if I'm wrong, unless you are a subscriber to the Campaign Setting line, you don't have the option to purchase the Campaign Setting pdf until the 23rd. Not being a subscriber means that you can not play your Hellknight character for most of the month, then you get the option to pay the money for the PDF at which point you are allowed to play once again.
This doesn't happen often at all, but it might have been preferable to offer a conversion document to the players with What Lies in Dust and let them continue to play with the AP issue in hand. At the very least, you could have waited until the end of the month to remove the What Lies in Dust from the Additional Resources list.
That's not quite the way it works.
The idea is that you cannot create a new character using the old Campaign Setting (or add items from it to an old character, or from What Lies in Dust) now.
You are expected to convert after the general pdf release date.
The wording was basically to stop people from creating a "grandfathered" character at the last minute.
EDIT: Mark talks about it in this thread
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Realistically, that's $10 he wouldn't have to buy food for his daughter, and that's not a realistic expectation. I was considering buying his a gift copy, but that's not really realistic, either.
My suggestion is you work with him to rework the character as straight ranger. Then when he gets the money to buy the update he can start take the PrC again.
The class he's playing is no longer legal which seems to me reasonable case for a rebuild.
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When I read this yesterday I felt sad and upset. Unfortunately while I started a response I never posted it. So belately my opinion to the whole issue.
What is really the problem or did we make one out of it?
Starting to answer to Chris Mortika:
We have a quite unique and sad situation. I think it is well in the power of a local organizer to just rule how he sees fit to the situation - taking into account the circumstances. This is a minor issue that shouldn't cause much sweat. In the specific case if I was the organizer I wouldn't insist on that specific person having to own this specific book. I would just look the other way.
But sometimes it doesn't really help to post specific situations here. By posting it here you relinquish any power of the local organizers and look for an official ruling from Paizo. Now if this person comes to my table and I did read the blog post here you have taken away my power (or at least made it a lot more difficult) to look away as I will have to follow the official ruling instead. Just think about that for a moment.
Did you ask yourself on how Paizo could react? A special ruling for a single person. The rules are harsh for the specific circumstances - but Paizo has to rule for the whole of the society.
There is something called Discretion. Do we as GMs really have less rights in ruling about such minor issues of applying rules compared to the police when they apply laws.
I appened some interesting definition of the defintion for Police Discretion. Copied from e-How. I hope this puts it into perspective.
There has long been a conflict in law enforcement between enforcing the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Should an officer enforce every little violation of the law he sees, or should his time be spent dealing with the crimes that society truly wants punished? This gray area is where the concept of police discretion comes in. Here are some important facts about police discretion.
Defintion
Since no law or policy can truly envision every possible scenario the police may encounter in the field, officers have flexibility in dealing with situations they encounter. Police discretion is the judgment officers use in the field, whether it be letting someone go after a stern lecture, or taking someone to jail for a minor offense because they may be a danger to themselves or others.
Discretion: Not Absolute
Police officers do not have unfettered discretion when dealing with crimes. Obviously they are still bound by the law. An officer cannot just ignore a homicide for instance. As criminal justice professor Dr. Tom O.Connor notes in his article on police discretion, "discretion is bounded by norms (professional norms, community norms, legal norms, moral norms)." (See References.) Officers, while able to use their judgment, still have rules to follow.
Considerations
It goes without saying that the police cannot pull over every speeding driver, otherwise everyone would get pulled over. Officers use discretion in regard to other crimes frequently as well. The most frequent include domestic violence, drunk driving, potential hate crimes and crimes involving the mentally ill.
Complex Variables
Officers will exercise discretion in situations where the facts or people involved don't necessarily line up with the law. A domestic situation between a couple who are otherwise law abiding citizens may be resolved with police escorting one party away, but not making an arrest. Officers may call a cab for a driver who is just barely over the legal limit for intoxication rather than taking them to jail.
Discretion in Less Serious Cases
Not surprisingly, discretion is exercised far more in speeding cases or simple vandalism than homicide and rape cases. Officers often feel minor offenses are more about educating citizens, whereas serious offenders deserve the full punishment of the law.
Read more: Police Discretion Definition | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/facts_5135852_police-discretion-definition.html#ixzz1GB ettvpS
So I really have to ask - do we as GMs and organizers in interperting rules have less rights as the police in interpreting laws using discretion?
Thod
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Thod,
You address the question of discretion, of allowing somebody to break the rules under certain circumstances. I appreciate the opportunity to address that here.
My friend and I have a history of mutually complaining about what we consider to be abuses of the PFS OP "play play play" rules. [Edited to remove gripes and examples.]
We're not on a crusade to clean up PFS or anything, But we've each made a decision to buck the trend and play legal characters, in legal tiers and subtiers, in legal scenarios and modules. So, he was angry a couple of nights ago, not because somebody else was going to check and catch him, but because he couldn't see a way to legitimately come to a table with the character. That's important to him.
I came here, not to get a special waiver for a particular person but to see if there was indeed a PFS-legal way for him -- and presumably others in the same boat -- to continue with a Hellknight PC. If you're right, Thod; if he's the only person in this situation; then you don't have to worry about discretion, because the only person with the trouble doesn't want to ask for any.
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In the last couple of days, a couple of people have emailed me, letting me know they'd be willing to fork over the $10 for a pdf for him. That's the kind of community we have here. I passed along those offers, and he's considering them. He's also following my advice, and building a new character.
In the last couple of days, a couple of people have emailed me, letting me know they'd be willing to fork over the $10 for a pdf for him. That's the kind of community we have here. I passed along those offers, and he's considering them. He's also following my advice, and building a new character.
Kudos to all those who have offered.
Chris, I only skimmed the thread so someone may have suggested this already, but if he can wait a few days or acouple weeks the Hellknight information may well show up on one of the fan sites like http://www.d20pfsrd.com/.
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Chris
Thanks for the honest and quick answer. I applaud you in regard to your holy crusade. But you should know as a RPG player that the code of the paladin to uphold all that is good and lawful sometimes has a price - in your case it is exactly $9.99.
It is also good to hear that several people here did volunteer to donate the money. I wanted to add this in my early reply as well - seems no longer needed - which is good. This are the moments where we really can see that this is a great community.
And don't take the first sentence to personal - the really upsetting part of the whole thread was when members here voiced as a solution to stop playing.
I was told 6 weeks ago that my company will close where I work. While I don't know what the future brings - one of the real highlights in my life two weeks later was a gathering with friends for my very personal CON. We started Friday evening - playing Throathy Mermaid, followed by a whole Saturday of Godsmouth Heresy and the Midknight Mauler on Sunday.
It was a great weekend with friends to forget all the problems in the real world for a few days.
If someone would have proposed I should have canceled it to write a CV instead and work on my future (from a purely non-emotial point of view sensible) I would have felt very offended.
There always should be enough time beside PFS to worry. Especially in tough times people need something where they can still have fun and enjoy. So let nobody deny the fun to anyone who is playing.
Thod
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Actually, no. Mark has already stated that the release of Inner Sea does not include any rebuild options.
The class he's playing is no longer legal which seems to me reasonable case for a rebuild.
I think that although close, the official ruling didn't really think through the outside cases. There will be a number of people that are in this boat (have characters which require a mandatory rewrite that was entirely unexpected). In most cases I'd agree that had this "been known" for a long time the player should be responsible to upgrade, but this one came way out of left field. I don't think any of us expected that they'd update a PrC that's barely a year old in a guide which never covered the PrC in the first place. The only real fair response is for Paizo to update the requirements and let characters built under the original PrC stay "grandfathered in" as they did the retired Campaign Guide feats, otherwise it is in essence forcing players to buy products that they were not aware even in the slightest were due for a change.
I have no problem with upgrades on products we know are coming (playtest classes, updates which we're given months upon months of notice (e.g. Inner Sea Guide), but forced changes nobody saw coming is another story entirely.
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And, someone correct me if I'm wrong, unless you are a subscriber to the Campaign Setting line, you don't have the option to purchase the Campaign Setting pdf until the 23rd. Not being a subscriber means that you can not play your Hellknight character for most of the month, then you get the option to pay the money for the PDF at which point you are allowed to play once again.
This doesn't happen often at all, but it might have been preferable to offer a conversion document to the players with What Lies in Dust and let them continue to play with the AP issue in hand. At the very least, you could have waited until the end of the month to remove the What Lies in Dust from the Additional Resources list.
That's not quite the way it works.
The idea is that you cannot create a new character using the old Campaign Setting (or add items from it to an old character, or from What Lies in Dust) now.
You are expected to convert after the general pdf release date.
The wording was basically to stop people from creating a "grandfathered" character at the last minute.
EDIT: Mark talks about it in this thread
That is better if that is the case, but he seems to be talking exclusively about Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting. Even though those elements are being replaced, they are still in the Additional Resources (even though they say that you must use the version in the World Guide).
For the Hellknight however, they removed any reference to it ever being legal from What Lies in Dust at all. It doesn't use the same wording as the updated material from the Campaign Setting. It doesn't say that, "If you don't meet the prerequisites of the updated Hellknight, you may ignore those prerequisites."
If someone came to a convention today with a Hellknight with What Lies in Dust in tow and checked to see it was legal to use, the Additional Resources page says absolutely no.
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If someone came to a convention today with a Hellknight with What Lies in Dust in tow and checked to see it was legal to use, the Additional Resources page says absolutely no.
And thus the armies of the Thrice damned House Thrune came to a grinding standstill and Cheliax was the laughing stock of the Inner Sea!
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If someone came to a convention today with a Hellknight with What Lies in Dust in tow and checked to see it was legal to use, the Additional Resources page says absolutely no.And thus the armies of the Thrice damned House Thrune came to a grinding standstill and Cheliax was the laughing stock of the Inner Sea!
Hear hear!
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The date by which a player must update his PC from Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting content to Inner Sea World Guide is the street date of the Inner Sea World Guide (March 23) when the book is assumed to be available in all retail stores and will definitely be available in pdf format on paizo.com. If you have access to the book prior to then, you must update any affected rules to the current version immediately.
The purchasing of equipment and choosing of feats or entry into a PrC from the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting is no longer legal as of yesterday. There remains a two week window between which you can no longer add new content from that source and by which all existing material from it must be converted.
Cross-posted for clarity.
The same principle applies for the Hellknight. You must play the converted class once it becomes available. You cannot create a new Hellknight under the old rules.
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I think that although close, the official ruling didn't really think through the outside cases. There will be a number of people that are in this boat (have characters which require a mandatory rewrite that was entirely unexpected). In most cases I'd agree that had this "been known" for a long time the player should be responsible to upgrade, but this one came way out of left field. I don't think any of us expected that they'd update a PrC that's barely a year old in a guide which never covered the PrC in the first place. The only real fair response is for Paizo to update the requirements and let characters built under the original PrC stay "grandfathered in" as they did the retired Campaign Guide feats, otherwise it is in essence forcing players to buy products that they were not aware even in the slightest were due for a change.
I have no problem with upgrades on products we know are coming (playtest classes, updates which we're given months upon months of notice (e.g. Inner Sea Guide), but forced changes nobody saw coming is another story entirely.
But we've known this for a while. HERE
The rule has always been you use the most current version of the rules. We knew there was a new version of the Hellknight class in this book months ago. Therefore the assumption should have been that there was a rewrite coming up.
Regardless, we can't make special rules for outside cases. In an organized play setting it's all or nothing, or it's just not fair to any of the players.
I sympathize with this particular case, but it is what it is.