Cost of a minor building PRIOR to introduction of BP?

[BobJoeJim]

I'm a player in a Kingmaker game that just started. So far we've had only one short session, in which we defeated in the first group of bandits that showed up at Oleg's, and that's where play stopped. In that battle we captured 6 horses, which puts 8 total in the area (including Oleg's horse and my character's horse). Oleg's stable, however, contains only 5 stalls, and I suspect we will soon have even more horses after we ride out after the rest of the bandit group (we know that over a dozen showed up in the past, compared to the four we fought, and presumably the others have horses as well).

So what's my point? Well my Cavalier is concerned about the well being of these graceful beasts, and would love to expand Oleg's stable (and perhaps add a corral outside of the fort). Because we're so early in the campaign, we haven't had "build points" introduced yet, and we don't have any to spend. I'm trying to research how much it would cost to build a stable and corral, while avoiding spoilers of any kind, and was hoping some people here could help. I know that a stable is listed, later on, at 10 BP, and that a BP is roughly equivalent to 4,000 GP, so that would imply a stable costs 40,000 GP to build and is miles beyond my means right now. On the other hand, I've read that the 10 BP stable represents a district 700 feet on a side (which would be 490,000 square feet) that would include several large stables and supporting buildings, etcetera. This is much different than a single structure with, say, 20 stalls (maybe 10x20 squares, or 50x100 feet, or 5,000 sq. ft., or about 1% the size of the larger district). Does this mean the single 20-horse stable would cost about 1% as much as the city "stable district", or 400 GP to build, plus a little extra for a corral (which is basically just a fence)?

Because if I can get this thing built for 500-1000 GP, my character will probably be able to pay for it with one or two more treasure hauls. And I would gladly spend my money on this before I spend any money on that better suit of armor that I need ;)

My question is whether my logic here is sound, or whether my desire to avoid spoilers has kept me away from something obvious in the rules that would throw my reasoning off. Thanks for the help!

[thenovalord]

stronghold builders guide is a 1000gp i think

peasents barter and trade alot so you could pay in 'goods'

[Daviot]

To expand on thenovalord's answer, BP in Kingmaker are an abstract representation of materiel and capital, so the rough 2k-4k gp equivalent depends on whether it's purely in cash or whether it includes material, labor, and so forth.

The 3.0 Stronghold Builder's Guide (which is mainly for building castles, but I digress), lists a "Basic Stable" for 1,000 gp, which covers stalls for six Large creatures, a water trough, and hardware to hang tack on the dividing walls.

Presumably, if you and your party (and possibly Oleg) were providing your own labor, your GM might rule that, like smaller items craftable with the Craft skills, which would knock that price down to roughly one-third. And likewise, since Oleg's is a Trading Post, barter might well be used as a form of payment. Talk to your GM and get his thoughts, sir.

[BobJoeJim]

Thanks for the input, and I will certainly talk to my GM and get his thoughts, but I won't see him for a few days yet and I wanted to have some thoughts of my own before that conversation (overeager much?). I know the BP rules are abstract, and as soon as we *have* BP I promise I'll reign in my micromanaging desires and go with the abstraction, hehe. For the moment though we aren't there yet, and there isn't really anyone in our party who has skills applicable to building anything that I'm aware with, so "material, labor, and so forth" all sounds like things I would want included. Beyond the cost estimate (which is all I'm looking for from this thread), there will also be in-game concerns of finding labor to help build it as well, but that *will* have to wait until I can discuss it with my GM.

I'd prefer to stay away from the Stronghold Builder's Guide stuff because A) It's mainly for building castles as you mention, B) It's not a Pathfinder supplement, and I'd rather draw from Pathfinder/Kingmaker sources if possible, and C) I always felt its prices seemed very questionable (high) for the economies it was meant to fit into. Then again perhaps point (C) works in my favor. If I believe SBG is overpriced, and it says 1000 GP for a 6-horse stable, then that meshes quite well with my Kingmaker-BP-rules-based-argument that a 20 horse stable should cost roughly 1000 GP ;)

[Philip Knowsley]

Lets face it, to build a corral - all you need is a saw, some trees
& perhaps nails or rope to fix planks to posts...
Given that Oleg's is a trading post...one could be forgiven for thinking
that a saw would be close by...as is the forrest. All you'd need to supply
would be labour...
It'd be slightly more complicated to build a stable, but I'm sure plenty
of locals would have skills, as may Oleg himself - after all he's put
the old fort to rights. You could build it yourself with minimal outlay,
look at log cabins the world over...but if you can't lay a claim to any
sort of proficiency, your GM may have it fall down at a later point...

[Diego Rossi]

BobJoeJim wrote:

I know that a stable is listed, later on, at 10 BP, and that a BP is roughly equivalent to 4,000 GP, so that would imply a stable costs 40,000 GP to build and is miles beyond my means right now.

I would say that the 10 BP include several horses available to be rented or sold plus appropriate tackle and maybe even some small chariot as the description say:

Stable: a structure for housing of selling horses and other mounts. City base value +500, Economy +1, Loyalty +1

The building would include some worker too. I have no experience in the field but I suspect that caring for 8 horses every day would take at least 4 work hours.

[bittergeek]

Bear in mind that "buildings" in Kingmaker don't necessarily represent single structures. The stable improvement costs 10BP, but it represents a square district of stables, with associated workers (each square filled adds 250 to the population) and support structures, up to 750 feet on a side. Far beyond just a small stable for a few mounts.

[voska66]

Diego Rossi wrote:

BobJoeJim wrote:

I know that a stable is listed, later on, at 10 BP, and that a BP is roughly equivalent to 4,000 GP, so that would imply a stable costs 40,000 GP to build and is miles beyond my means right now.

I would say that the 10 BP include several horses available to be rented or sold plus appropriate tackle and maybe even some small chariot as the description say:

Stable: a structure for housing of selling horses and other mounts. City base value +500, Economy +1, Loyalty +1

The building would include some worker too. I have no experience in the field but I suspect that caring for 8 horses every day would take at least 4 work hours.

Depends on what you are doing for the horses. Like if you saddling and riding the horses hard, 4 hours of work in grooming, saddling and feeding can easily happen. If you just want to keep the animals healthy it's less than 10 minutes a day. Supply food and water in area big enough for the horses to run. Provide a wind break for bad weather and the horse are good to go.

[Diego Rossi]

voska66 wrote:

Depends on what you are doing for the horses. Like if you saddling and riding the horses hard, 4 hours of work in grooming, saddling and feeding can easily happen. If you just want to keep the animals healthy it's less than 10 minutes a day. Supply food and water in area big enough for the horses to run. Provide a wind break for bad weather and the horse are good to go.

While this is the internet so everything you find should be handled with care, this piece http://hubpages.com/hub/How-to-Care-for-a-Horse seem to point to a bit more than 10 minutes a day.

Remember that we are not speaking of the tamed wild horses that are common in the USA but of animals more similar to the breeds used in the middle ages.

So animals much more dependant from human care than the American breeds.

I, as a GM, would ask the player to find a stable boy to care for the horses: feeding, clearing the stables, putting water in the the through (that outpost hasn't a well!) and so on, while requiring someone skilled in animal handling to check them at least once a week. [that is for 8 horses, I am sure that the Cavalier can care for his animal]

Edit: for sure it will depend on what you are dong with the horses and a few days with minimal care probably will not damage them but if we are speaking of a long term arrangement I think it will require some work.

[Hargor]

All above posts have a very modern and animal-caring view on horses and how they are cared about.

Considering a medival surrounding with some more education than in human history i would consider that packing two horses in one booth of the stable of Oleg's Tradepost would be more suitable than building a corral.

Why?

If you look at the Wandering Monsters table of Stolen Lands you even can have a troll strolling around the outpost.
Having several horses in an outside corral is like posting a bright sign upon them saying "Food for free!".

Better cramping the stable than loosing a horse.

Additionally you can have the horses hobbled inside the palisades and feed them by the Levetons.

If you look at the tradepost you will recognize that the soldiers of the detachment led by Kesten Garess have also no room inside it.
As a GM i decided that the soldiers had heir tents placed beneath the battlements of the tradepost. This provides enough cover from the environment.

[Diego Rossi]

Agreed Hargor. For medieval people an horse is a large investment. At least the equivalent of a modern tractor if it is a farm animal, much more for a good bred riding animal.

In most of my campaigns the poor horses had a tendency to become troll fodder when left alone at the camp site (there is a recurring joke between the players about a band of trolls following the group around. They worship a statue of the dwarf character as the "food provider").

On the other hand horses need to move around to stay in good health and feeding but not using horses will be seen as a kind of sin for a typical medieval mindset.

Probably the best option would be to have them in a outside corral during the day, under the watchful eye of some low wage retainer and inside the palisade for the night.

At the same time if the PC don't use them bringing them to the nearest large settlement and selling them would be the best option.

[BobJoeJim]

Of course there's also the consideration that in the mind of the character considering this there is, as yet, no reason to suspect that there are trolls about so near to Oleg's that they might view a corral outside the walls as bait. I mean he has a charter that mentions there are a lot of monsters in the Greenbelt, but since he hasn't yet explored past Oleg's, right now he's probably assuming those monsters are a little further off. And as for caring for the horses, of course if he were to spend his hard earned gold hiring people to come down and build a stable, he would also hire a stablemaster to oversee it and take care of the animals while he's out adventuring/exploring/hunting down bandits. Once he does some exploring, if he discovers that monsters who would be a threat to horses are, in fact, present so close, he would rethink his plans to keep them outside the trading post walls. However he's also impetuous, and already in possession of more horses than can be comfortably stabled in the existing accommodations, so if* he can afford it he would be shipping off a work order ASAP, and only discovering his mistake later, when the horses are eaten. And as for the animal-centric view. I'm a cavalier, and this particular character is one I envision as being particularly fond of horses even for his class. This is a roleplaying endeavor.

*That "if" is the only real question here. How much it would cost to hire some people to come down and build a stable? A question which I'm attempting to extrapolate an answer to via the BP rules (but while accounting for the fact that what my character wants to build bears very little similarity to what the 10 BP "stable" represents) rather than some other non-Kingmaker, non-Pathfinder resource like the Stronghold Builder's Guide.

[Caineach]

I charged my players $1000 for a well built house outside of gates. They continued to do things that would build up the area, like using slave labor from the bandits that they captured alive, and so I felt that they deserved something for that resource expeniture once we got to kingdom building. I gave them a free tenement (no unrest increase) when they started their city. This basicly equates to 1BP off of a house and the ability to build something require adjacency to a house first turn without wasting the unrest loss.

For this, I would do something similar. I would charge you 1000, + make you pay for anyone you hire to come down (prices are in equipment section of core book). When you get to kingdom building, I would give you a discount of ~1 BP (depending on how much you spent) on a stables adjacent to Oleg's.