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I've never really thought about it before, because I've been quite happy with the existing swarms in 3E and Pathfinder. However, when Bestiary 2 came out, I thought I should try creating a swarm of crawling hands.
Here's the thing: the rules on swarm subtype don't mention anything about changes to base creature's stats, AC, HD or saves. When I compared, for example, bats to bat swarm, it seemed there was no method to this madness; +5 to some stat, -1 to another, and so on. Is there a method, or am I just missing it?
In the end I just took a look at Crawling Claw Swarm in Lost Empires of Faerûn and used it as the baseline, modifying some stats according to the crawling hand entry in Bestiary 2. I also changed the size of the hands to Tiny (half damage from weapon attacks), because it made sense that you could use weapons on this swarm (weapons work normally against individual hands, after all).
Here's what I came up with; feel free to comment, criticize and offer advice on how to improve it:
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CRAWLING HAND SWARM (CR 3)
XP 600
N Tiny undead (swarm)
Init +2; Senses blindsense 30 ft., darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 14 (+2 Dex, +2 size)
hp 32 (4d8+12)
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +4
Defensive Abilities swarm traits; Immune undead traits, half weapon damage
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., climb 40 ft.
Melee swarm (1d6 plus tripping grab)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks distraction (DC 11), smite fallen
STATISTICS
Str 15, Dex 14, Con -, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 14
Base Atk +0; CMB —; CMD —
Feats Toughness
Skills Climb +9, Perception +4, Stealth +12, Survival +4; Racial Modifiers +4 Survival
SQ swarm traits
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Smite fallen (Ex) A crawling hand swarm inflicts double damage against prone combatants.
Tripping Grab (Ex) A crawling hand swarm may trip foes with its swarm attack. If the opponent fails a Reflex save DC 14, it falls prone.
Can't tell you if it works or not, but it's still creepy as hell. I like that idea.
I quite like the whole tripping grap part, but is concerned whether it is going to work.
Since a swarm doesn't threaten and make attacks of opportunity, there is really no stopping the PC's of just standing up at their next turn, if they are tripped by the swarm, and make their single attack afterwards.
I am only considering the swarm as a stand alone encounter, throwing in additional enemies might make standing up difficult, and possibly making the swarm very lethal at low levels.
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Thanks for your comments, guys! It's supposed to be scary, but Harald is actually spot on; I had completely ignored/forgotten the fact that a swarm does not threaten. Ergo, it will never get to use Smite Fallen on a PC (unless there are additional enemies) because you can simply rise up and move away. It *does* limit a PC to one move action/attack per round, but it's trivial against low-level characters.
Hmmm... maybe I should give it 'Cling', an ability that tick swarm has in Bestiary 2? That would make the swarm "stickier", something I think *all* swarms should actually be.
Or perhaps it should have an ability that lets it trip *before* dealing swarm damage, i.e. whenever it moves to "engulf" someone? Or as an immediate reaction if someone moves away?
Or perhaps it should have an ability that lets it trip *before* dealing swarm damage, i.e. whenever it moves to "engulf" someone? Or as an immediate reaction if someone moves away?
Although it would be somewhat an abstraction of the generel rules, I think it will work. If they fail their reflex save (or are prone in advance) they take 2d6 damage instead of 1d6.
Love it!
Yea, for all the other ways monster building is systematised, swarms are sort of left out. I bet there's swarm templates in 3rd party stuff, but not in core afaik.
I've toyed with the idea of useing the concept for units of troops and torch & pitchfork weilding mobs. Basically they're just a swarm but of small, medium or larder creatures. 4E did something with it for Mobs of people, but wasn't very satifying.
Mastercraft Anthology from Fantasy Flight Games has a swarm template. I think it's from their Monster's Handbook.
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Although it would be somewhat an abstraction of the generel rules, I think it will work. If they fail their reflex save (or are prone in advance) they take 2d6 damage instead of 1d6.
Or perhaps it should have an ability that lets it trip *before* dealing swarm damage, i.e. whenever it moves to "engulf" someone? Or as an immediate reaction if someone moves away?
Yep, that should work pretty well and put some fear into my players! Thanks for your help! :)
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Love it!
Yea, for all the other ways monster building is systematised, swarms are sort of left out. I bet there's swarm templates in 3rd party stuff, but not in core afaik.
I've toyed with the idea of useing the concept for units of troops and torch & pitchfork weilding mobs. Basically they're just a swarm but of small, medium or larder creatures. 4E did something with it for Mobs of people, but wasn't very satifying.
Thanks! It's funny that they haven't published a swarm template by now; maybe it will feature in Bestiary 3, but it might also be a nice topic for design tuesdays? By the way, Cityscape, I think, I had a mob template for 3E. I can check it at home, because I know I've seen it somewhere.
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Alright, here's the "revised" version; feel free to comment and criticize:
CRAWLING HAND SWARM (CR 3)
XP 800
N Tiny undead (swarm)
Init +2; Senses blindsense 30 ft., darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 14, flat-footed 14 (+2 Dex, +2 size)
hp 32 (4d8+12)
Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +4
Defensive Abilities swarm traits; Immune undead traits, half weapon damage
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., climb 40 ft.
Melee swarm (1d6)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks distraction (DC 11), drag to the ground, smite fallen
STATISTICS
Str 15, Dex 14, Con -, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 14
Base Atk +1; CMB —; CMD —
Feats Toughness
Skills Climb +9, Perception +4, Stealth +10, Survival +4; Racial Modifiers +4 Survival
SQ swarm traits
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Drag to the ground (Ex) Whenever a crawling hand swarm moves into a square containing an enemy, or whenever the swarm would get an attack of opportunity against an enemy as if it threatened squares normally, that opponent must succeed at a DC 14 Reflex save or fall prone.
Smite fallen (Ex) A crawling hand swarm deals an additional 1d6 points of damage with its swarm attack against prone opponents.
Mastercraft Anthology from Fantasy Flight Games has a swarm template. I think it's from their Monster's Handbook.Thanks for the tip, but are you sure it's not a FantasyCraft supplement?
Yes, I'm sure, it's a compilation of various things taken from Fantasy Flight Games' Legends & Lairs line.
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Yes, I'm sure, it's a compilation of various things taken from Fantasy Flight Games' Legends & Lairs line.Mastercraft Anthology from Fantasy Flight Games has a swarm template. I think it's from their Monster's Handbook.Thanks for the tip, but are you sure it's not a FantasyCraft supplement?
Hmmm, I'm not sure if I want to purchase another 3E supplement just to get this; I think Paizo will publish formalized rules for building swarms sooner or later.
I just noticed I forgot 'Strangle' from the stat block, but on the other hand, it might be "too much". I mean, it would automatically more or less "pacify" all spellcasters; in addition, 'Drag to the Ground' makes sure that most low-level clerics or wizards won't even get away.
Any thoughts?
There's no such thing as "too much." There is only "mis-stated CR."
If your game is anything like the two games I'm playing in, we need "too much" monsters to challenge the PCs that have been created with these "too much" APG rules.
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I just noticed I forgot 'Strangle' from the stat block, but on the other hand, it might be "too much". I mean, it would automatically more or less "pacify" all spellcasters; in addition, 'Drag to the Ground' makes sure that most low-level clerics or wizards won't even get away.
Any thoughts?
There's no such thing as "too much." There is only "mis-stated CR."
If your game is anything like the two games I'm playing in, we need "too much" monsters to challenge the PCs that have been created with these "too much" APG rules.
I'm not sure if I want to bump up CR, because I'd have to bump up its HD and AC as well; now the swarm's abilities are (barely) comparable to an average CR 3 creature. Besides, 'Strangle' is a two-edged sword; very effectively shuts down spellcasters, but does nothing against melee types. It may be easier to think of 'Drag to the Ground' as a replacement for it.
Contributor
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I'm not sure if I want to bump up CR, because I'd have to bump up its HD and AC as well; now the swarm's abilities are (barely) comparable to an average CR 3 creature. Besides, 'Strangle' is a two-edged sword; very effectively shuts down spellcasters, but does nothing against melee types. It may be easier to think of 'Drag to the Ground' as a replacement for it.I just noticed I forgot 'Strangle' from the stat block, but on the other hand, it might be "too much". I mean, it would automatically more or less "pacify" all spellcasters; in addition, 'Drag to the Ground' makes sure that most low-level clerics or wizards won't even get away.
Any thoughts?
There's no such thing as "too much." There is only "mis-stated CR."
If your game is anything like the two games I'm playing in, we need "too much" monsters to challenge the PCs that have been created with these "too much" APG rules.
Probably not a shocker, but I really like the concept of a swarm of crawling heads
I suggest a description along with the statblock, which might help explain a few things- such as how it moves or attacks. Its pretty quick for something without legs- do the heads roll? (might make a trip attack if they roll into an opponents space and just muck up the terrain, making it almost impossible to safely maneuver). Do they magically hover (which might make for a better attack), do they simply glide about on a blanket of slime or do their tongues have hooked tips and animate to pull the skull part around like a snail in a shell?|
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I'm not sure if I want to bump up CR, because I'd have to bump up its HD and AC as well; now the swarm's abilities are (barely) comparable to an average CR 3 creature. Besides, 'Strangle' is a two-edged sword; very effectively shuts down spellcasters, but does nothing against melee types. It may be easier to think of 'Drag to the Ground' as a replacement for it.I just noticed I forgot 'Strangle' from the stat block, but on the other hand, it might be "too much". I mean, it would automatically more or less "pacify" all spellcasters; in addition, 'Drag to the Ground' makes sure that most low-level clerics or wizards won't even get away.
Any thoughts?
There's no such thing as "too much." There is only "mis-stated CR."
If your game is anything like the two games I'm playing in, we need "too much" monsters to challenge the PCs that have been created with these "too much" APG rules.
Probably not a shocker, but I really like the concept of a swarm of crawling heads
I suggest a description along with the statblock, which might help explain a few things- such as how it moves or attacks. Its pretty quick for something without legs- do the heads roll? (might make a trip attack if they roll into an opponents space and just muck up the terrain, making it almost impossible to safely maneuver). Do they magically hover (which might make for a better attack), do they simply glide about on a blanket of slime or do their tongues have hooked tips and animate to pull the skull part around like a snail in a shell?
Tim, this is a swarm of crawling hands, not heads! ;)
Although a swarm of crawling heads would be a cool idea, too. Now you just have to write a module featuring one, don't you? ;) Hmmm, these disgusting abominations might work well with a dullahan....
Okay, almost totally unrelated, but I've got a great gaming story to tell.
Buddy of mine is a real freak, and likes to GM the old Chaosium version of Call of Cthulu every now and again, so we'll get some friends, hop on my boat, anchor out for the weekend, and game. He gets his adventure ideas from nightmares he has.
One scenario was about an old sugar cane plantation in Haiti, run by this creepy old white dude and his smoking hot young wife. We're guests there. She keeps sneaking out at night, and we sneak out to follow her to find out why. There's this voodoo shaman in this graveyard, and the chick is having sex on a plinth with a crawling mass of dismembered zombie body parts, that are being animated by the shaman. So we freak out and decide to try to "help" by killing the voodoo priest / etc, which turns out to be the totally wrong thing to do.
We find out that her 'true love' died, and she only married the old coot because he was a magician, and he promised her she could still lay with her true love for forever as a marriage bargain, so that mass of zombie parts was her former lover. And the child she's rearing (we met earlier) is a half-zombie.
Weird.
Anyway, do whatever you've got to do to make this swarm, and stat it out and post it. Coolest swarm idea ever. Make the stats like you want them and ballpark the CR later. You're a GM, you're allowed.
Another question I had -
Say a Witch casts Swarm Skin, and leaves her skeleton behind while she goes Swarming. What happens to her when some necromancer animates her skeleton?
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Another question I had -
Say a Witch casts Swarm Skin, and leaves her skeleton behind while she goes Swarming. What happens to her when some necromancer animates her skeleton?
Hmmm, I guess nothing happens, because she's not dead; there's no spirit to animate or bind. In my opinion it would be the same as casting Animate Dead on any living person.
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Anyway, do whatever you've got to do to make this swarm, and stat it out and post it. Coolest swarm idea ever. Make the stats like you want them and ballpark the CR later. You're a GM, you're allowed.
Yeah, I know; I'm just careful about balancing stats to CR, because I've made a couple of disastrous (read: almost TPKs) errors before.
However, I can't take credit for this swarm; Bestiary 2 has crawling hand, which is the PF RPG version of the classic crawling claw from Forgotten Realms. IIRC, Ed Greenwood himself created this monster for AD&D, and even though swarms didn't mechanically exist back then, many adventures featured scores of claws swarming over hapless PCs. This idea was later on developed into crawling claw swarm in Lost Empires of Faerûn.
So, in a way, the designers decided to return to the original version with crawling hand; however, due to Pathfinder combat rules being far more complex than AD&D, I felt that 50+ individual monsters would be nigh impossible to run without losing your sanity. Yet I *wanted* to run an encounter featuring approx. 50-300 of these creatures, which is why I decided to create a swarm version.
As I said above, I used both crawling hand and crawling claw swarm as the baseline, applying some 4E design methods to this monster: what does it need to do to fulfill its "role" in combat, what kind of abilities it could have for some synergy, how could it challenge all sorts of characters, and so on. For example, I wanted it to be vulnerable to weapons because individual hands are (hence my decision to make these hands tiny instead of diminutive) but if I did that, the dwarven fighter with Spring Attack could hack it apart in two rounds without being exposed to any danger (and that is why it can trip any creature trying to leave the swarm's area).