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So the young Defense analyst who is accused of downloading and leaking intel to Wikileaks has been declared a hero whose actions have put otherwise covered up collateral damage in the spotlight. According to a close friend who visits him regularly, he is being continuously harassed into either confessing or confessing to something he didnt do in order to link it all to Assange.
Julian Assange: "Either way he (Manning) is America's number one Political Prisoner."
So in light of all this talk of Patriotism, can a Hero be the guy who exposes corruption, crime, and cover up?
So in light of all this talk of Patriotism, can a Hero be the guy who exposes corruption, crime, and cover up?
I don't see why not. Corruption, crime, and cover up that nobody knows about sounds like the bad guys winning to me.
It's still treason even if he did it for the right reasons.
Giving away secret government documents to everyone would count as aiding the enemy. In embarrassing the USA he provided the same enemies comfort.
Sounds like treason to me.
I'm gonna go on strike, and sleep naked in support of Bradley.
So the young Defense analyst who is accused of downloading and leaking intel to Wikileaks has been declared a hero whose actions have put otherwise covered up collateral damage in the spotlight. According to a close friend who visits him regularly, he is being continuously harassed into either confessing or confessing to something he didnt do in order to link it all to Assange.
Julian Assange: "Either way he (Manning) is America's number one Political Prisoner."
So in light of all this talk of Patriotism, can a Hero be the guy who exposes corruption, crime, and cover up?
To answear the question in general...absolutely...it is what a patriot would do. As those atacks the ideals of a country more than any forgein enemy could.
In this case....mmm...did he not release infomation that put Americans in danger? Or was everything released really...corrupt or enven criminal. I mean releasing the State services assement of people that is not flattering is not something that is a good thing. I don't know much about the case as alot of the wikileaks seem more grandstanding...and maniplulation than anything else. IE it is not a bad idea but I suspect the head guy of not the pureist of motives he likes to project.
Also if he was willing to do this...who knows if he was not selling more vityal secrest to out enemys.
No matter what crime he's accused of, he's innocent until proven guilty. We should remember that. He may be an innocent man accused of a crime he didn't commit.
Using that logic, I guess it's safe to infer that it is just a little too early in the game to go around declaring him a hero for something he may or may not have even allegedly done. Ergo, this entire thread is moot.
Using that logic, I guess it's safe to infer ... Ergo, this entire thread is moot.Yep, it's safe to infer that.
You can even assume it.
You may return to your "Naked Nap in Support of Bradley," Spanky. :D
-- Andy
Well, I would.....but since the incident in question is merely based on a news article, and utterly bereft of any judicial opinion as to the illegality or injustice of the particular matter alleged in the news piece, I think that my opinion about a possibly grave injustice being perpetrated may just be a little too early in its formulation.
So, I'll just sleep naked for the sake of sleeping naked, and not necessarily in support of anything.
Manning leaked thousands of classified documents that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that in war civilians often die.
His leak exposed nothing. We expect collateral damage in Afghanistan because that is an integral part of the Taliban's tactics. If you fight in or near populated centres you will have civilian casualties. period.
We're supposed to be shocked that war is terrible? Manning got himself life in prison for nothing.
It's still treason even if he did it for the right reasons.Even though treason is what those in charge are committing when they break the laws? Or is it not treason unless they hang you for it?
This, again, is just more alleged stuff.
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Clicking on the thread title, I was thinking that he'd gotten the Congressional Medal of Whistleblower Honor or something, not that some dude, somewhere, said he was being treated badly...
Meh.
I think that Charlie Sheen's bad behavior is being over-hyped by a media desperate for some celebrity controversy, but that probably doesn't warrant a threadline that suggests that some official authority has said so, or that it's popular consenus that the Pope should fast-track him for beatification.
On the other hand, the notion that 'making America look bad' by revealing something that's *true* is somehow treasonous just seems silly to me.
The honor of the America I live in is not dependent upon deception to exist. It's better than that.
Manning leaked thousands of classified documents that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that in war civilians often die.
His leak exposed nothing. We expect collateral damage in Afghanistan because that is an integral part of the Taliban's tactics. If you fight in or near populated centres you will have civilian casualties. period.
We're supposed to be shocked that war is terrible? Manning got himself life in prison for nothing.
- American planes bombed a village in Southern Yemen in December 2009, killing 14 women and 21 children- The Secretary of State's office encouraged US diplomats at the United Nations to spy on their counterparts by collecting biographic & biometric information
- The Obama administration worked with Republicans to protect Bush administration officials facing a criminal investigation into torture
- A US Army helicopter gunned down two Reuters journalists in Baghdad in 2007
- US authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi police and soldiers
- Then-Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld and his top commanders repeatedly knowingly lied to the American public about rising sectarian violence in Iraq beginning in 2006
- The US was shipping arms to Saudi Arabia for use in northern Yemen even as it denied any role in the conflict
- Swiss company Trafigura Beheer BV dumped toxic waste at the Ivorian port of Abidjan, then attempted to silence the press from revealing it by obtaining a gagging order
- A stash of highly enriched uranium capable of providing enough material for multiple "dirty bombs" has been waiting in Pakistan for removal by an American team for more than three years
- BP suffered a blowout after a gas leak in the Caucasus country of Azerbaijan in September 2008, a year and a half before another BP blowout killed 11 workers
- Pope Benedict impeded an investigation into alleged child sex abuse within the Catholic Church
- Anglo-Dutch oil giant Royal Dutch Shell PLC has infiltrated the highest levels of government in Nigeria
- British officials made a deal with the US to allow the country to keep cluster bombs in the UK despite the ban on the munitions signed by Gordon Brown
- The US government was acting on behalf of GM crop firm Monsanto in 2008, when the US embassy in Paris advised Washington to start a military-style trade war against any European Union country which opposed genetically modified (GM) crops
- The British government promised to protect America's interests during the Chilcot inquiry into the Iraq war
- Pfizer tested anti-biotics on Nigerian children, contravening national and international standards on medical ethics
Yeah...nothing at all of importance. A bigger list with links to the articles is on
http://frontlineclub.com/blogs/RyanGallagher/2011/02/what-wikileaks-has-tol d-us.htmlThis spin of "no surprises" is silly. There were important revelations concerning many, many countries, including of course, the US.
This, again, is just more alleged stuff.It's still treason even if he did it for the right reasons.Even though treason is what those in charge are committing when they break the laws? Or is it not treason unless they hang you for it?
Giving away secret government documents to everyone would count as aiding the enemy. In embarrassing the USA he provided the same enemies comfort.
Sounds like treason to me.
Sounds like alleged treason.
This, again, is just more alleged stuff.It's still treason even if he did it for the right reasons.Even though treason is what those in charge are committing when they break the laws? Or is it not treason unless they hang you for it?Giving away secret government documents to everyone would count as aiding the enemy. In embarrassing the USA he provided the same enemies comfort.
Sounds like treason to me.
Sounds like alleged treason.
I'm just so glad you qualified that; it makes this thread maybe just a little less moot than it is.
Yeah...nothing at all of importance. A bigger list with links to the articles is on
Unless I missed something, none of what you listed there came from Manning. I didn't attack Wikileaks. I said that Manning got himself thrown in jail for nothing (assuming he is found guilty).
I thought I heard that Julian Assange believed the Jews were the ones that pushed for Bradley Manning to be in prisoned.
Unless I missed something, none of what you listed there came from Manning. I didn't attack Wikileaks. I said that Manning got himself thrown in jail for nothing (assuming he is found guilty).Yeah...nothing at all of importance. A bigger list with links to the articles is on
If I understand it correctly, Manning is accused of leaking the Iraq files, the Afghanistan files, and the Diplomatic Cables. I think most of those came from the cables, and those which didn't came from the other files.
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I thought I heard that Julian Assange believed the Jews were the ones that pushed for Bradley Manning to be in prisoned.
So The White House takes it's marching orders from Tel Aviv? Unlikely. The USA would Nuke Israel the instant they determined them to be a threat to the USA. Speaking of which - Israel is using black Hole Weapons to rig elections in the US and erase Family lines from existance.
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I thought I heard that Julian Assange believed the Jews were the ones that pushed for Bradley Manning to be in prisoned.So The White House takes it's marching orders from Tel Aviv? Unlikely. The USA would Nuke Israel the instant they determined them to be a threat to the USA. Speaking of which - Israel is using black Hole Weapons to rig elections in the US and erase Family lines from existance.
Bull, american evangelicals would rather see the US burn to the ground than see any risk come to jesus' landing pad.
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<shrug>
There's some video here, where Bradley Manning's dad, Brian, talks a bit.
I don't consider a parent necessarily an "unbiased source" on matters such as this, but as I posted a while back (in this very thread, in fact), I suspect Bradley Manning is not being treated up to the standards I'd expect one citizen of the US to extend towards another.
Whether or not that citizen is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or not (i.e., is or is not subject to the United States Code of Military Justice).
I'm looking forward to the FRONTLINE on March 29th. I'd like to know more.
-- Andy
He leaked gov. documents to our enemies, he is lucky he isn't kicking at the end of a rope.
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<shrug>
There's some video here, where Bradley Manning's dad, Brian, talks a bit.
I don't consider a parent necessarily an "unbiased source" on matters such as this, but as I posted a while back (in this very thread, in fact), I suspect Bradley Manning is not being treated up to the standards I'd expect one citizen of the US to extend towards another.
Whether or not that citizen is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or not (i.e., is or is not subject to the United States Code of Military Justice).
As a citizen, I expect more of my military. Anyone serving took an oath, they can't claim "I didn't know better" (as compared to the average person walking down the street).
I'm looking forward to the FRONTLINE on March 29th.
I'd like to know more.
-- Andy
Kind of embarassing when the guy in the street knows better than the Government Employee...Kind of lowers them to the level of Rural Taliban in an Afghani Backwater...
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Had young Mr. Manning* allegedly released this material through appropriate offices in the military, which we are regularly informed exist to handle these situations, I guess then he could be considered a hero depending on the situation.
Had he even allegedly released this material through a US news agency I might be willing to accept that he was trying to do the right thing.
Instead, Mr. Manning allegedly released this information to a no-name individual in Australia in order to aggrandize himself and release the information in the most spectacular and embarrassing manner. By utilizing this observation alone I can reasonably, but not definitively, conclude that the alleged release was meant to deliberately cause harm as opposed to resolve a wrong. I cannot view such an act as heroic.
As to the accusations of being mishandled, I'd be more inclined to take such with a grain of salt, ESPECIALLY if Mr. Manning did indeed release the materials. Having delivered a few soldiers to Regional Confinement Facilities in my career, I can tell you that they do NOT treat you with flowery courtesy, but at the same time are most professional at not having to do anything so trite.
To Mr. Tuttle -
Military life, and the laws and regulations that cover it, is much different than civilian life. I'd be cautious about making pronouncements regarding the same unless you've done some more research.
For example, you incorrectly assume that you have to be a US Citizen in order to serve in the US Military.
Also, as a citizen of the United States, you fall under a different legal code than does Mr. Manning. The Uniform Code of Military Justice is the source legal reference for most military members (please refer to the UCMJ specifically to see who does or does not fall under its jurisdiction.) I'm not schooled enough in military justice to speak as an authority, but I can say that there are numerous differences, one specific example being the application of non-judicial punishment.
* I use the term Mr. because I am unsure of his rank. I believe he is a Specialist, but I am not certain. Because of my current employment I have been asked to disassociate from all media and reference to the situation.
Let's first remember that the most damning account from Manning's actions come from Lamo, who is himself known for taking all kinds of actions to aggrandize himself. The truth in this matter is most likely a bit different from what we can garner from Lamo's accusations.
Nevertheless, the importance of whether his actions were heroic or not are beyond the point, I guess. Manning has been kept for 8 months now without a trial under humiliating, psychologically and physiologically strenuous conditions, a situation which only serves to tarnish US image as a free country.
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Actually far as I know he hasent even been charged with anything yet. Surely if he is as guilty as claimed they should have been easily able to send him to trial?
I think a lot of it has to do with case investigation, which may be ongoing. Another thing is time for prosecution/defense to build case, etc. Like I said before, military law isn't civilian law. I don't know if there is a timeliness clause or not - law makes my head hurt.
yup, he did admit it.
It is a known fact that he leaked things he should never have, what are you going on about?
Facts are things like gravity, one plus one equals two, quantifiable things. What you're stating is no more a "fact" than saying I should eat vanilla instead of chocolate pudding, it's an OPINION.
From another viewpoint Manning's actions might be seen as something akin to the Pentagon Papers, (for those of you old enough to remember the significance).
If you expose incompetence, deception, and hijinks on a scale on the order of WikiLeaks collateral damage is inevitable. What goes unsaid though is the collateral damage of leaving these damming secrets hidden.
+1
Oh, and Ellsberg himself has drawn this connection.
I love how some are going off about, "You have no facts to prove he did anything wrong." And then immediately turn around and say things like, "I know he is being treated badly." Really? Where did you get those facts? Were you there in his cell when he was forced to stand naked? No, then maybe you are not getting all the facts. Or maybe you are and so are the other people. Or maybe you all are wrong. Seriously, don't act as if being "sure" is a bad thing and then do it yourself.
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No matter what crime he's accused of, he's innocent until proven guilty. We should remember that. He may be an innocent man accused of a crime he didn't commit.
James, I'm pretty sure he's being court martialled, not tried in civilian courts. At a court martial, the accused is not presumed innocent.
You sound so sure of yourself when making your observation, pm. ;-)
No matter what crime he's accused of, he's innocent until proven guilty. We should remember that. He may be an innocent man accused of a crime he didn't commit.James, I'm pretty sure he's being court martialled, not tried in civilian courts. At a court martial, the accused is not presumed innocent.
Give us some insight on Court Martials if you can, Chris.