Question regarding Spell Perfection, Metamagic Mastery, and Pearls of Power

[CapGM]

So recently one of my players had gotten the Spell Perfection feat for Fireball. He was thinking that he would be able to use a 3rd level Pearl of Power to recall his Fireball spell after he had spontaneously applied the Intensified, Selective, and Empowered metamagic feats for it. I told him he would need an 8th level Pearl of Power to do this, as Spell Perfection is an ability he has and the Pearl of Power does not. My player was quite upset with this. I know that a Pearl of Power can not recall a spell that has been cast spontaneously, but I could not find any rules for Pearls of Power and how they interact with a spell that has had metamagic feats applied to it spontaneously. Any feedback would be much appreciated, as me and my player are butting heads with one another about this.

[brassbaboon]

CapGM wrote:

So recently one of my players had gotten the Spell Perfection feat for Fireball. He was thinking that he would be able to use a 3rd level Pearl of Power to recall his Fireball spell after he had spontaneously applied the Intensified, Selective, and Empowered metamagic feats for it. I told him he would need an 8th level Pearl of Power to do this, as Spell Perfection is an ability he has and the Pearl of Power does not. My player was quite upset with this. I know that a Pearl of Power can not recall a spell that has been cast spontaneously, but I could not find any rules for Pearls of Power and how they interact with a spell that has had metamagic feats applied to it spontaneously. Any feedback would be much appreciated, as me and my player are butting heads with one another about this.

[del]I would look at the part where it says a metamagic enhanced spell takes the slot of a higher level spell and say that the pearl of power needed to store a metamagiced spell is equal to the spell slot needed.[/del]

Edited... I misunderstood the question. I would rule as the comment below has suggested...

[Nigrescence]

CapGM wrote:

So recently one of my players had gotten the Spell Perfection feat for Fireball. He was thinking that he would be able to use a 3rd level Pearl of Power to recall his Fireball spell after he had spontaneously applied the Intensified, Selective, and Empowered metamagic feats for it. I told him he would need an 8th level Pearl of Power to do this, as Spell Perfection is an ability he has and the Pearl of Power does not. My player was quite upset with this. I know that a Pearl of Power can not recall a spell that has been cast spontaneously, but I could not find any rules for Pearls of Power and how they interact with a spell that has had metamagic feats applied to it spontaneously. Any feedback would be much appreciated, as me and my player are butting heads with one another about this.

First of all, have you and your player re-read the Spell Perfection feat. You may only spontaneously apply ONE metamagic feat without raising the spell slot (because it's spontaneously applied, not prepared that way).

Additionally, it's whenever you cast that spell (the one you selected for Spell Perfection) that you can apply the one metamagic spontaneously.

The spontaneous application itself is unexpended. It happens whenever you cast that spell. This means that a Pearl of Power returns the prepared spell. Should he cast that spell again, he gets to apply the metamagic spontaneously.

Any other metamagic would raise the spell level during preparation. Remember that he can only apply one metamagic per casting of this spell that he selected when taking the feat.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection

You two are butting heads when you should read the applicable rules first. You were both wrong.

[hogarth]

Spell Perfection allows you to add one metamagic feat for free. So which is the one that he added?

EDIT: ninja'ed

[Nigrescence]

hogarth wrote:

Spell Perfection allows you to add one metamagic feat for free. So which is the one that he added?

EDIT: ninja'ed

I may have ninja'ed, but all of my levels are in Wizard.

[CapGM]

I missed the part where it says only one metamagic feat may be applied. He just got the feat, so we are still getting used to it. I think I may still house rule that you can apply more than one metamagic feat though, a bumped-up fireball is not that hard to deal with. It was just the Pearl of Power that was making it problematic. I'm just going to say that for a Pearl of Power, we use the spell level that the feats would make it. Just to prevent too much spamming in the game for a low-cost item

[Nigrescence]

CapGM wrote:

I missed the part where it says only one metamagic feat may be applied. He just got the feat, so we are still getting used to it. I think I may still house rule that you can apply more than one metamagic feat though, a bumped-up fireball is not that hard to deal with. It was just the Pearl of Power that was making it problematic. I'm just going to say that for a Pearl of Power, we use the spell level that the feats would make it. Just to prevent too much spamming in the game for a low-cost item

That's wrong, though. There's a reason the Spell Perfection only allows one metamagic feat to be applied spontaneously. It's for balance. If you throw balance out the window, do NOT complain when it comes back to bite you in the arse.

Either rule it as written, or let it slide. You're being unfair if you require the pearl to be higher level for a level 3 slot. He is providing ALL of the power for the metamagic. The PoP restores the prepared spell, in the prepared slot. Meaning it restores a third level spell. Meaning a third level pearl would do it. This is also by the rules. If you allow him to apply multiple effects, then you cannot turn around to say the PoP cannot restore the level 3 slot.

Pick your poison. I suggest you follow the rules in this case. Only one metamagic feat is applied spontaneously and for free. Every other metamagic must be already prepared, or applied through some other method (like a rod). He can still do the same trick in other ways, but you really should follow the rules.

Otherwise, he can just prepare all level 3 spells as Fireball and apply all of his metamagic all of the time. That's wrong. You're letting him break the system by breaking the rules. Be consistent.

[CapGM]

I do see your point about game balance, but I still can not find any rules allowing the pearl to recall a spell with even ONE metamagic feat applied to it spontaneously. A 3rd level pearl of power just seems to cheap in price for this.

Assume I go with a player can recall it, but only one metamagic feat may be applied using Spell Perfection at a time. Now we introduce quickened fireball (7th level spell). What is to stop a player from crafting 15 3rd level pearls of power (at 4,500gp each)? The player would only need to prepare fireball once a day and be able to cast it 16 times per day quickened. My players are currently 16th level, so the price for 15 3rd level pearls of power represents only 15% of one players wealth.

I am not trying to nerf my players feats/abilities and pearls of power. I am just trying to meet him halfway on the point and create a ruling in my game that is consistent and balanced. Requiring higher level pearls of power to pull off such stunts simply means that they just wont be able to do it 16 times in one day.

[Kierato]

CapGM wrote:

I do see your point about game balance, but I still can not find any rules allowing the pearl to recall a spell with even ONE metamagic feat applied to it spontaneously. A 3rd level pearl of power just seems to cheap in price for this.

Assume I go with a player can recall it, but only one metamagic feat may be applied using Spell Perfection at a time. Now we introduce quickened fireball (7th level spell). What is to stop a player from crafting 15 3rd level pearls of power (at 4,500gp each)? The player would only need to prepare fireball once a day and be able to cast it 16 times per day quickened. My players are currently 16th level, so the price for 15 3rd level pearls of power represents only 15% of one players wealth.

I am not trying to nerf my players feats/abilities and pearls of power. I am just trying to meet him halfway on the point and create a ruling in my game that is consistent and balanced. Requiring higher level pearls of power to pull off such stunts simply means that they just wont be able to do it 16 times in one day.

The fact that it takes a standard action to recall a spell using a pearl of power. Pearls of power are great for getting your spells back between encounters, less so during the encounter. It can also be argued that you have to take the pearl of power out of whatever pocket it is in, which would be a move action (this ruling would make sense, but it is not explicitly stated).

[CapGM]

So your saying that quickened fireball for 16 rounds in a row is balanced?

[Echo Vining]

CapGM wrote:

I do see your point about game balance, but I still can not find any rules allowing the pearl to recall a spell with even ONE metamagic feat applied to it spontaneously. A 3rd level pearl of power just seems to cheap in price for this.

You seem to be missing the part where the metamagic feat is applied spontaneously. He does it when he casts the spell, not when he prepares it. A pearl of power doesn't care how the spell is cast, just how it's prepared. Similarly, if a cleric converts shield of faith into cure light wounds he can still use a 1st-level pearl to get his shield back.

[Echo Vining]

CapGM wrote:

So your saying that quickened fireball for 16 rounds in a row is balanced?

A. That's not what happens.

B. You're being deliberately antagonistic. Stop it, or people will stop taking your concerns seriously.

[Nigrescence]

CapGM wrote:

I do see your point about game balance, but I still can not find any rules allowing the pearl to recall a spell with even ONE metamagic feat applied to it spontaneously. A 3rd level pearl of power just seems to cheap in price for this.

Assume I go with a player can recall it, but only one metamagic feat may be applied using Spell Perfection at a time. Now we introduce quickened fireball (7th level spell). What is to stop a player from crafting 15 3rd level pearls of power (at 4,500gp each)? The player would only need to prepare fireball once a day and be able to cast it 16 times per day quickened. My players are currently 16th level, so the price for 15 3rd level pearls of power represents only 15% of one players wealth.

I am not trying to nerf my players feats/abilities and pearls of power. I am just trying to meet him halfway on the point and create a ruling in my game that is consistent and balanced. Requiring higher level pearls of power to pull off such stunts simply means that they just wont be able to do it 16 times in one day.

That's because the rules of spell slots for the PoP restoration don't apply with spontaneously applied metamagic. The PoP restores a prepared spell of the appropriate slot. The metamagic is applied spontaneously ONLY to the spell he selected when he took the feat (he can't apply it to every spell with just the one feat). If he prepares it in a third level slot, the PoP can restore the third level slot. He himself supplies the metamagic for the spell. The PoP doesn't enter into it. Now, if he prepared it as a fourth level slot with a +1 metamagic applied, then he can supply a free metamagic with his feat, as well as the prepared metamagic with level adjustment, and he'd need a fourth level PoP to restore it.

The PoP only deals with the level of the prepared spell. Any modifications make no difference. For example, if he used a rod of silent spell, the rod is supplying the metamagic. He still only consumed and prepared a third level spell slot. A third level PoP would restore that third level spell. This is all inherent in the balance and explicitly clear in the RAW.

What stops him from crafting 15 third level PoPs? Nothing, aside from money constraints and time constraints. And, I would argue, availability of the materials. You could say that he just can't find that many high quality pearls available to be used, at least at the moment.

Sure, he could end up only preparing it once a day and cast it sixteen times per day, but he would have to use a Standard action to recharge with a PoP, and possibly more actions to get one out then to put it away (which would stop him from quickening it so many times in a row). If he was a blaster relying on this spell, he'd probably prepare it in more than one slot (and that way he can actually quicken it several times). He wouldn't even need that many, especially since higher level spells can be much more powerful.

The point is, a Fireball spell isn't all that great. If he's relying on it, he probably needs to be able to quicken it so that he can get three out there. He'd be better off with higher level spells, for the most part.

I don't see the problem, especially. When you get to sixteenth level PCs, all sorts of things can happen that may seem overpowered to you. You just need to deal with it as a DM. You really don't need to subvert the rules. If you follow the rules, you should be fine. If anything, you set yourself up for feeling that this was too strong by allowing him to use more than one metamagic for free with his feat (which is not allowed). If you clear up the rules, and play as written, I think you'll find that it's not as much a danger as you're thinking.

[CapGM]

Didn't mean to come off as antagonistic.

Standard Action - recall fireball
Move Action - move
Swift Action - quickened fireball

This can be maintained for 15 rounds with 15 pearls of power. 16 rounds counting the initial casting. I am just trying to gauge if this is balanced for items representing about 15% of character wealth.

[CapGM]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. The problem began in my game a couple of weeks ago when I missed the part about Spell Perfection that says only one metamagic feat can be applied at a time. I re-read Metamagic Mastery and it says the same thing too about only one at a time. I will bring this up with players the next time we meet to game. I will get their input too, I do include my PC's on the creation of house rules.

And yes, my 16th level wizard player could do better than fireball lol. He just loves the spell though. To quote him "its the new magic missile." Ahh, good times in this campaign.

[Kierato]

Let's not forget that without other metamagic feats(which would take higher spell slots and therefore a greater pearl of power) he risks hitting his allies, not being able to hurt fire resistant/immune enemies, and not being able to do much to high level monsters.

[Ravingdork]

CapGM wrote:

Didn't mean to come off as antagonistic.

Standard Action - recall fireball
Move Action - move
Swift Action - quickened fireball

This can be maintained for 15 rounds with 15 pearls of power. 16 rounds counting the initial casting. I am just trying to gauge if this is balanced for items representing about 15% of character wealth.

That's hardly broken. A sorcerer with the same feats could cast metamagic'd fireballs as many times as he has 3rd-level and higher slots (effectively all day most of the time). And he didn't even have to craft/buy all those silly pearls to do it!

Shooting maximized fireballs and quickened fireballs each round until you only have 2nd-level or lower spell slots left is nice, but not broken.

Though it seems you two had some mix ups with the feat, the general premise behind your player's trick works.

[CapGM]

Update

So yesterday me and my players met up for our weekly session of Pathfinder. I went over the rules regarding our situation that everybody here brought up to my attention (thanks again for all the responses). We all had a good laugh to find out that we were all playing those rules wrong. So anyway, we just went through our normal gaming day applying the rules as you guys have pointed out. The whole session ran beautifully. I'm stoked that the dilemna turned out to be nothing more than missing the word one in the description for the Spell Perfection feat and the Metamagic Mastery ability.

Thanks again everyone

[leo1925]

CapGM wrote:

Didn't mean to come off as antagonistic.

Standard Action - recall fireball
Move Action - move
Swift Action - quickened fireball

This can be maintained for 15 rounds with 15 pearls of power. 16 rounds counting the initial casting. I am just trying to gauge if this is balanced for items representing about 15% of character wealth.

I know that the OP's situation has been resolved but just for being clear, it should be:

Move Action - pick the pearl (provokes AoO unless you have handy haversack)
Standart Action - recall fireball
Swift Action - quickened fireball

next round:
free action - drop the pearl
Move Action - pick the pearl from you pocket/bag (provokes AoO unless you have handy haversack)
Standart Action - recall fireball
Swift Action - quickened fireball