By definition, patriotism is the idea that your country is good. It is often combined with one type of chauvinism, namely that other countries are bad. This is certainly not necessary, it's just the usual state of things.
Once you try to push this principle of patriotism into practical politics, you will get nationalism, a system that promotes the domestic to the foreign. The leadership will promote and define that which the people can be rallied with, i.e. a certain way of life, some common values, but also ways to speak, ways to look, and things you say. You encourage vital national unity and dampen protests through defining an "in"-group and an "out"-group.
This is what is happening right now. Anyone not fitting the "in"-group criteria is defined as some kind of demon. Someone who has been defined as a "criminal" has very few rights, not even voting in certain states. Illegal immigrants. People of various sexual preferences. The thing about this is that while keeping focus on these "out"-groups works for a while, new groups will be needed to keep the protests dampened. Other religions, new sexual preferences people are afraid of, more laws leading to more "criminals", and so on, and so forth. THAT is what the Niemöller poem explains. It is an expanding concept. Somewhere along the line, belonging to a blacklisted group no longer yields enough in the "out"-group.
And then, suddenly, the politicians have set up whitelists instead. From "if you do or are X, you are the enemy", to "if you DON'T do Y, you are the enemy". Y will be things like being part of an approved congregation, having your children in certain schools and extracurricular activities, reporting neighbors that have been found to do illegal things, keeping cameras and microphones for the government in your home, accept being chipped, and so on.
The final stage, once societal pressure yields no more conformity, is when the government decides to make things mandatory, and start going door to door to chip people.
One of the favourite ideas of totalitarian societies is that any criticisms against the state and the actions of the government is proof of being "unpatriotic".
As I was saying, this is what is happening RIGHT NOW. See to your house, americans.
Fighting and dying for patriotism alone is like fighting and dying over what is the best color. "It's blue!" "F U, it's green!" [gunshots]
Or an edition of a game of pretend?
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You are starting to sound a little like Chicken Little, CJ. I have found this thread to be very enlightening. What is it you find so depressing?
it's like having to explain a joke. It is no longer funny.
The US is not perfect. No country is. Never has been never will be. All countries are the sum total of it's history both where it has been and where it is going. Very few posts have anything positive to say. Hence my dislike of the entire affair. So lets take the US out of history shall we?
No Moon Landing
Still have Polio
WW1 would have ended different
WW2 Would have lasted a lot longer and would have had a much different outcome.
No modern state of Israel yet Palestine would still be impoverished only now they would be blaming the rest of the Arab world.
No Computers
No Airplanes
NO ROLE PLAYING GAMES
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You are starting to sound a little like Chicken Little, CJ. I have found this thread to be very enlightening. What is it you find so depressing?it's like having to explain a joke. It is no longer funny.
The US is not perfect. No country is. Never has been never will be. All countries are the sum total of it's history both where it has been and where it is going. Very few posts have anything positive to say. Hence my dislike of the entire affair. So lets take the US out of history shall we?
No Moon Landing
Still have Polio
WW1 would have ended different
WW2 Would have lasted a lot longer and would have had a much different outcome.
No modern state of Israel yet Palestine would still be impoverished only now they would be blaming the rest of the Arab world.
No Computers
No Airplanes
NO ROLE PLAYING GAMES
See I'm a Canadian. while I am proud of my countries accomplishments. I still have a great appreciation for the United States, it has done so many great things for the world. I also have a great appreciation for many European countries and so on. My patriotism only extends really to a small amount of pride in my country, but never to a sense of superiority. I think Canada has been fortunate in it's history which is why it has the standing it does in the world. But it doesn't make Canada any better than any other country.
You are starting to sound a little like Chicken Little, CJ. I have found this thread to be very enlightening. What is it you find so depressing?it's like having to explain a joke. It is no longer funny.
The US is not perfect. No country is. Never has been never will be. All countries are the sum total of it's history both where it has been and where it is going. Very few posts have anything positive to say. Hence my dislike of the entire affair. So lets take the US out of history shall we?
No Moon Landing
Still have Polio
WW1 would have ended different
WW2 Would have lasted a lot longer and would have had a much different outcome.
No modern state of Israel yet Palestine would still be impoverished only now they would be blaming the rest of the Arab world.
No Computers
No Airplanes
NO ROLE PLAYING GAMES
The only thing worse than someone who can do no wrong is someone who can do no right. As sins should never be forgotten(few would give the US the opportunity) and should be recognized with something perhaps a touch firmer than the handwave of "nobody's perfect"; neither should the virtuous/self-correcting actions be ignored(few Americans would give others the opportunity, even[perhaps especially] other Americans) and they should be recognized with something more gracious than the simple concession of a bloated/selfish/evil/just plain WRONG bureaucracy "actually getting something right (for a change)" or a panacea for all wrongs past and future, which leads to less patriotism and more nationalism.
it's like having to explain a joke. It is no longer funny.
Well the first time around was like telling a joke only you get.
Very few posts have anything positive to say.
Define 'positive'. Is your beef that people are pointing out the mistakes America has made? I do not subscribe to the belief we should burry our head in the sand and pretend it never happened. You can not fix a mistake until you admit you made one.
Is your beef that enough people are not singing the praises of America? No one has really sung the praises of any country. I do not see anyone saying America is the worst country ever either.
Just that Patriotism can be a good thing.
It seems to me most people agreed.
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...[lots of scaremongering]...
The final stage, once societal pressure yields no more conformity, is when the government decides to make things mandatory, and start going door to door to chip people.
One of the favourite.. [some more scaremongering]....
How about some solid specific examples of what you're talking about? There are over 30000 cities in the US, not including the Territories and Protectorates, so while a thousand verifiable incidents would be a nice starting number in order to obtain empirical results, I'll let you off with a dozen.
You didn't like that scaremongering, did you? Well, self-knowledge is painful. I am talking about the process of nationalism and why it is dangerous, what is likely to happen if this trend continues. If you can't face the truth that it IS happening right now, I feel only pity for you. Blaming the messenger and ridiculing the message doesn't usually make the message less true, to my experience.
Bill McGrath: Those groups were meant as examples of people defined as "out-group". The point is that "out-group" will keep growing to keep the process on track, not that illegal immigrants should have the right to vote. If that is what you think I meant, it would probably help you in life to learn to read english.
You didn't like that scaremongering, did you? Well, self-knowledge is painful. I am talking about the process of nationalism and why it is dangerous, what is likely to happen if this trend continues. If you can't face the truth that it IS happening right now, I feel only pity for you. Blaming the messenger and ridiculing the message doesn't usually make the message less true, to my experience.
Bill McGrath: Those groups were meant as examples of people defined as "out-group". The point is that "out-group" will keep growing to keep the process on track, not that illegal immigrants should have the right to vote. If that is what you think I meant, it would probably help you in life to learn to read english.
I don't know...I saw no blaming or ridiculing of your message....but when it is obvious that your own hate of America colors your 'self-knowledge' maybe you should look into yourself.
Everything is corrutable...EVERYTHING. When you learn that it is easier to fight the corrurtion. I mean Lenin's and Stalin's communism Russian had nothing to do with nationalism...or religion...or patriotism...but a ideal...yet they also created 'out groups'....Heck Stalin killed more Jews than Hitler did. Heck when the German army was just outside of Moscow the jews revolted hoping to help the germans liberate them.
Is American heading towards what you think it is...probably all countries fall eventualy. But it is not because of any particular reason except we forgot what True Patriotism is and what this country stood for. And this goes to both sides of the party lines. That is why we fall...Nationalism or the liberalism extremist are just symptoms of it...it is the fact that most Americans have become self entitled.
We as Americans are as much at fault as we let out politians use the same buttons as everybody before them...'the rich are bad'...'gays should not allowed to be marrid' etc. At this point time the only thing that will save us is True Pratriotism...in my opinion.
I am curious what country are you from?
I do not hate America. Trust me on this. If I did, why wouldn't I like to see American politicians play the populism cards to destroy the country? The reason I am saying this is because America is heading to s$&~, and I would very much like for you americans to fight this development.
That is why it's vital to acknowledge how far it has already gotten. Censorship is spreading, documentaries and even normal photos are increasingly made suspicious, the securitocracy is spreading its influence massively, using tools such as ubiquitous surveillance, full-scale wiretapping without permits, national security letters, the country is being held in war to more easily destroy civil liberties, people are held without trial and due process, free speech is getting ever more curtailed, and so on and so on and so forth.
You are still a country where the ideal of freedom is held high. Remember that, and act accordingly next time a politician tells you that more security will solve all your problems.
You are starting to sound a little like Chicken Little, CJ. I have found this thread to be very enlightening. What is it you find so depressing?it's like having to explain a joke. It is no longer funny.
The US is not perfect. No country is. Never has been never will be. All countries are the sum total of it's history both where it has been and where it is going. Very few posts have anything positive to say. Hence my dislike of the entire affair. So lets take the US out of history shall we?
No Moon Landing
Still have Polio
WW1 would have ended different
WW2 Would have lasted a lot longer and would have had a much different outcome.
No modern state of Israel yet Palestine would still be impoverished only now they would be blaming the rest of the Arab world.
No Computers
No Airplanes
NO ROLE PLAYING GAMES
I have a book recommendation for you CJ its a scifi book called Without Warning - Amazon Link. The pro US author wrote it because he got tired of people saying "if there was no America". Its a great book and it would make an interesting Role Playing campaign.
In regards to your assertation that the above would not have happend or happend differently - I agree with the happened differently. I do not agree with the would not have happened.
Research and development does not happen in a Vacuum and there and people were working on the same thing were only months or a few years behind.
I do not hate America. Trust me on this. If I did, why wouldn't I like to see American politicians play the populism cards to destroy the country? The reason I am saying this is because America is heading to s@%@, and I would very much like for you americans to fight this development.
That is why it's vital to acknowledge how far it has already gotten. Censorship is spreading, documentaries and even normal photos are increasingly made suspicious, the securitocracy is spreading its influence massively, using tools such as ubiquitous surveillance, full-scale wiretapping without permits, national security letters, the country is being held in war to more easily destroy civil liberties, people are held without trial and due process, free speech is getting ever more curtailed, and so on and so on and so forth.
You are still a country where the ideal of freedom is held high. Remember that, and act accordingly next time a politician tells you that more security will solve all your problems.
I don't disagree with you. I think you are a little overstating the issues...but hey maybe that will serve as a better wake up call.
The peoblem though is two fold here...
1) The general entitlement of the population...we are what Tourville(sp?) predicted what we are...we have learned as a people to vote ourselves bread and circus. And as long as those are not interrupted we don't care what the goverment as to do or what rights we sell to keep them.
2) To stand up to try to change this means to be publicy raped by the existing parties. Heck that is part of the circus. Personaly the Tea Party was heading somewhat in the right direction for this...than people like Glen Beck and others moved in and changed the message...to be more of the same crap.
But really right now they are not beating us with the need for security...right now it is all about selling us to the goverment for the economy...
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This is what is happening right now. Anyone not fitting the "in"-group criteria is defined as some kind of demon. Someone who has been defined as a "criminal" has very few rights, not even voting in certain states. Illegal immigrants. People of various sexual preferences.
Are you seriously suggesting that illegal immigrants be allowed to vote? Hell, why cap it at that? Maybe we should allow EVERYONE to vote. I can just see it now...
And the winner of the 2012 President of the United States is Barak Obama. He trailed by a half a billion votes for most of the campaign, but his last minute endorsement of Communism was enough to turn the Chinese vote, giving him the victory! Congratulations, Comrade Obama! Do svidanya!
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You didn't like that scaremongering, did you? Well, self-knowledge is painful. I am talking about the process of nationalism and why it is dangerous, what is likely to happen if this trend continues. If you can't face the truth that it IS happening right now, I feel only pity for you. Blaming the messenger and ridiculing the message doesn't usually make the message less true, to my experience.
Bill McGrath: Those groups were meant as examples of people defined as "out-group". The point is that "out-group" will keep growing to keep the process on track, not that illegal immigrants should have the right to vote. If that is what you think I meant, it would probably help you in life to learn to read english.
so... no examples to back up your claim? I'd call that scaremongering.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Patriotism is a form of normal, healthy self-interest. Individual members of a society usually benefit when the society as a whole benefits. Ergo, patriotism. It doesn't have to be a zero-sum game, although lots of people think that to like your own country necessarily means you dislike others. For my part, I like the U.S. because out of all the legal systems on the globe, I think that of the U.S. best protects my individual rights. It could be better, but as far as I can tell, it isn't anywhere else.
I never thought I'd say this, but I agree with some of what Sissyl is saying. Before 9/11 we never would have stood for the kind of invasive security measures we now endure. We are piecemeal trading liberty for security and that isn't a good trade for us, because security can always be had more cheaply and easily than liberty.
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Research and development does not happen in a Vacuum and there and people were working on the same thing were only months or a few years behind.
Very True. Nothing happens in a Vacuum. Somethings may however take years longer to have accomplished, and I think you might be surprised at the things that would go away entirely if but one country did not exist. This does not in fact have to be the US to still be true.
Moon landing. If not the US, the Soviet Union. Prime example. For while the "cold war" made this a reality. The Russians did not need us to have been around to send the first probes up. It might have been the 1980's but ti still would have happened, and in fact a permanent base might have been made if for no other reason the propaganda.
Research and development does not happen in a Vacuum and there and people were working on the same thing were only months or a few years behind.Very True. Nothing happens in a Vacuum. Somethings may however take years longer to have accomplished, and I think you might be surprised at the things that would go away entirely if but one country did not exist. This does not in fact have to be the US to still be true.
Moon landing. If not the US, the Soviet Union. Prime example. For while the "cold war" made this a reality. The Russians did not need us to have been around to send the first probes up. It might have been the 1980's but ti still would have happened, and in fact a permanent base might have been made if for no other reason the propaganda.
Yes and Wernher von Braun assuming he survives the first world war (if it occurs) may have put Germany (Nazi or not as we are talking alt.History) into space 20 years earlier.
A lot of the leaps in US aerospace technology was due to the fact that the Nazi Scientists that they captured at the end of the war were better than the Russians Nazi Scientists.
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I do not hate America. Trust me on this. If I did, why wouldn't I like to see American politicians play the populism cards to destroy the country? The reason I am saying this is because America is heading to s@&#, and I would very much like for you americans to fight this development.
That is why it's vital to acknowledge how far it has already gotten. Censorship is spreading, documentaries and even normal photos are increasingly made suspicious, the securitocracy is spreading its influence massively, using tools such as ubiquitous surveillance, full-scale wiretapping without permits, national security letters, the country is being held in war to more easily destroy civil liberties, people are held without trial and due process, free speech is getting ever more curtailed, and so on and so on and so forth.
You are still a country where the ideal of freedom is held high. Remember that, and act accordingly next time a politician tells you that more security will solve all your problems.
Documentaries and the news media have made themselves suspect, they offer bias and lies more often than truth like they once were meant to.
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Research and development does not happen in a Vacuum and there and people were working on the same thing were only months or a few years behind.Very True. Nothing happens in a Vacuum. Somethings may however take years longer to have accomplished, and I think you might be surprised at the things that would go away entirely if but one country did not exist. This does not in fact have to be the US to still be true.
Moon landing. If not the US, the Soviet Union. Prime example. For while the "cold war" made this a reality. The Russians did not need us to have been around to send the first probes up. It might have been the 1980's but ti still would have happened, and in fact a permanent base might have been made if for no other reason the propaganda.
Yes and Wernher von Braun assuming he survives the first world war (if it occurs) may have put Germany (Nazi or not as we are talking alt.History) into space 20 years earlier.
A lot of the leaps in US aerospace technology was due to the fact that the Nazi Scientists that they captured at the end of the war were better than the Russians Nazi Scientists.
Very true, and thankfully we will never know.
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You are starting to sound a little like Chicken Little, CJ. I have found this thread to be very enlightening. What is it you find so depressing?it's like having to explain a joke. It is no longer funny.
The US is not perfect. No country is. Never has been never will be. All countries are the sum total of it's history both where it has been and where it is going. Very few posts have anything positive to say. Hence my dislike of the entire affair. So lets take the US out of history shall we?
No Moon Landing
Still have Polio
WW1 would have ended different
WW2 Would have lasted a lot longer and would have had a much different outcome.
No modern state of Israel yet Palestine would still be impoverished only now they would be blaming the rest of the Arab world.
No Computers
No Airplanes
NO ROLE PLAYING GAMESThat's a classic list of American style arrogance And I'm going to address those points in order.
Or you could take the high road and let this thread die the painful death it deserves.
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RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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6. With all respect to Gygax and Arneson, RPG's as a hobby could have easily been birthed from another source instead of simulationist war gaming. IF it had sprung say out of the Japanese love affair with games, what we might have had was something far less rigid and stratified in class design.
Steve Jackson's Japanese?!?! Who'd have thunk it?
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Steve Jackson's Japanese?!?! Who'd have thunk it?6. With all respect to Gygax and Arneson, RPG's as a hobby could have easily been birthed from another source instead of simulationist war gaming. IF it had sprung say out of the Japanese love affair with games, what we might have had was something far less rigid and stratified in class design.
No one.
6. With all respect to Gygax and Arneson, RPG's as a hobby could have easily been birthed from another source instead of simulationist war gaming. IF it had sprung say out of the Japanese love affair with games, what we might have had was something far less rigid and stratified in class design.
Japan? Really? I think we would have seen them come out with a Computer RPG come from 1st. What the world for some body who think Japan can't do no wrong and is a fanboy of everything Japaneese?
Actualy I am curious...but are their any forgeign RPGs really? From Japan? I just never heard them...
My guess by the way is if America did not exist RPGs would have came Britian.
But who cares we have America...so why play meaningless what if.../ Meant to insult.
Though if you going to continue your um fiction of history...you should revise number two to be realistic...it really breaks the 4th wall.
Just.....just.....nothing but hoop. Epic. Win. Race to the moon.
Won.
For the rest of human history, whether or not the U.S.A. is still around, we'll be remembered as the first ones on the moon.
That's awesome.
wanders through thread with his fellow trolls
A good patriot wishes for his or her country to be the best it can be. If this means criticizing politicians, starting protests or influencing parties, or even working to excise corruption through forceful means, then it should be a measure of the patriot's loyalty to the country that he or she is willing to go so far to do it.
However, all of this presupposes that the patriot actually has a solid understanding of the processes involved. If you don't understand it, don't try to change it.
6. With all respect to Gygax and Arneson, RPG's as a hobby could have easily been birthed from another source instead of simulationist war gaming. IF it had sprung say out of the Japanese love affair with games, what we might have had was something far less rigid and stratified in class design.
Japan? Really? I think we would have seen them come out with a Computer RPG come from 1st. What the world for some body who think Japan can't do no wrong and is a fanboy of everything Japaneese?
Actualy I am curious...but are their any forgeign RPGs really? From Japan? I just never heard them...
My guess by the way is if America did not exist RPGs would have came Britian.
But who cares we have America...so why play meaningless what if.../ Meant to insult.
Though if you going to continue your um fiction of history...you should revise number two to be realistic...it really breaks the 4th wall.
Japan, do something wrong? NEVER!!!!!
That said, yeah, when I want to play RPGs, Japan is either the second or third place I go to. HUGE love for RPGs there, however there is a serious attachment to japanese stereotypes in their RPGs. The same could be said of RPGs in the US too, but for some people(occasionally myself included) it can get old fast.
Yes and Wernher von Braun assuming he survives the first world war (if it occurs) may have put Germany (Nazi or not as we are talking alt.History) into space 20 years earlier.A lot of the leaps in US aerospace technology was due to the fact that the Nazi Scientists that they captured at the end of the war were better than the Russians Nazi Scientists.
There was a limited series of graphic novels which posits Britain putting the snark on both the United States and Russia and capturing them all for itself. and launching the world's only space programme. (in of course a proper British way)
"When I launch into orbit it's going to be sitting in a proper chair in a pressurised cabin wearing a proper jacket... not some glorified monkey suit."
Most of the leaps in U.S. aerospace technology was mainy due to the fact that the United States was willing (and able) to throw alot more money into the research. In fact at the end of World War 2 in just about every area of industry the United States was sitting in a very good position being the only major country which....
1. Had not suffered significant losses of population
2. Had not had the bulk of it's major industries burned down to the ground due to invasion or aerial bombardment.
These fortuitous circumstances are the main reason the United States enjoyed the longest period of prosperity on record.
Indeed. This was quite a shock to many in my high school history classes, where lots of fights broke out.
If you acknowledge that you don't know enough about how the political system works, and decide that because of this you should not vote...
Then yes, you probably have done something deeply patriotic.
Of course, there is nothing stopping you from (for example) reading up on the political system and the platforms of the different parties, after which voting would again be a patriotic act.
A good patriot wishes for his or her country to be the best it can be. If this means criticizing politicians, starting protests or influencing parties, or even working to excise corruption through forceful means, then it should be a measure of the patriot's loyalty to the country that he or she is willing to go so far to do it.
However, all of this presupposes that the patriot actually has a solid understanding of the processes involved. If you don't understand it, don't try to change it.
Finally! Someone focusing on patriotism as something other than national pride. Like Sissyl I believe the patriot is called to try to improve their country, perhaps even sacrifice for it. To my mind the first thing a patriot must lose is his rose-colored glasses. You must be able to see the blemishes in order to remove or ameliorate them. Second, despite seeing the blemishes, the patriot must still love her country and what it can become. Third, the patriot should act to fulfill that vision.
You can debate means and goals, but those three things must be in place for someone to be a patriot.
So I'm a patriot because I avoid voting?
Depending on your reasons, I would argue, "No." It would be more patriotic to inform yourself and others, and then vote.
@LazarX: both posts...as I don't know how to do multi-post on these boards...
1) Thanks about the infomation about forgein RPGs...I did not doubt they exist or think USA is the only place they come from...I just have not heard of them...or in the case of InNominee did not connect it to the French.
Though the Record of the Lodass War felt like a D&D game because it was based on a D&D game...atleast that is what I heard. Watching it I thought it was too much mindless drivel like most Anime is...
But thankks that was more from curiousity sake than in any way saying America is the only souce of RPGs.
2) WW1 and WW2: Sure America got into WW1 late...but at the time the US did it tipped the balance. Without American involvment the war would have dragged on much longer so in fact we did end the war. Though personaly I think we entered it on the wrong side....but that is a whole another debate.
As for WW2...we again had a major effect on the War. Casuality rates has nothing to do with this...how many Russians were killed by there own people? Or forced to charge the German lines with 1 rifle per two people?
I did not mean to belittle the other countrys involved in either war...well accpt the countries involved in WW1....but your comments seemed to belittle America's effect in the wars...not to mention WW2 was really a WW2 as there was the Pacfic Theater...in which we were themajor fighters of that war(with the Chineese and British forces).
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What do you mean realistic? World War 1 started in 1914 and ended in 1918. The United States entered the war in 1917 following the sinking of the Louistania. World War 2 total casualties are estimated to have been about 61 million fatalties of that the Soviet Union suffered 13 million, China 24 million, and the United States, about 100,000.
Though if you going to continue your um fiction of history...you should revise number two to be realistic...it really breaks the 4th wall.
So what you are saying is, we entered the war, it ended.
The next war we entered and took less casualties.Sweet.
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Yes and Wernher von Braun assuming he survives the first world war (if it occurs) may have put Germany (Nazi or not as we are talking alt.History) into space 20 years earlier.A lot of the leaps in US aerospace technology was due to the fact that the Nazi Scientists that they captured at the end of the war were better than the Russians Nazi Scientists.
There was a limited series of graphic novels which posits Britain putting the snark on both the United States and Russia and capturing them all for itself. and launching the world's only space programme. (in of course a proper British way)
"When I launch into orbit it's going to be sitting in a proper chair in a pressurised cabin wearing a proper jacket... not some glorified monkey suit."
Most of the leaps in U.S. aerospace technology was mainy due to the fact that the United States was willing (and able) to throw alot more money into the research. In fact at the end of World War 2 in just about every area of industry the United States was sitting in a very good position being the only major country which....
1. Had not suffered significant losses of population
2. Had not had the bulk of it's major industries burned down to the ground due to invasion or aerial bombardment.
These fortuitous circumstances are the main reason the United States enjoyed the longest period of prosperity on record.
Ah so you base your understanding of the world on fiction...got it your easier to understand now.
Ah so you base your understanding of the world on fiction...got it your easier to understand now.
Yes and Wernher von Braun assuming he survives the first world war (if it occurs) may have put Germany (Nazi or not as we are talking alt.History) into space 20 years earlier.A lot of the leaps in US aerospace technology was due to the fact that the Nazi Scientists that they captured at the end of the war were better than the Russians Nazi Scientists.
There was a limited series of graphic novels which posits Britain putting the snark on both the United States and Russia and capturing them all for itself. and launching the world's only space programme. (in of course a proper British way)
"When I launch into orbit it's going to be sitting in a proper chair in a pressurised cabin wearing a proper jacket... not some glorified monkey suit."
Most of the leaps in U.S. aerospace technology was mainy due to the fact that the United States was willing (and able) to throw alot more money into the research. In fact at the end of World War 2 in just about every area of industry the United States was sitting in a very good position being the only major country which....
1. Had not suffered significant losses of population
2. Had not had the bulk of it's major industries burned down to the ground due to invasion or aerial bombardment.
These fortuitous circumstances are the main reason the United States enjoyed the longest period of prosperity on record.
No, there is evidence to back 1 and 2. I'm not sure where the fiction falls in to his worldview, however.
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No, there is evidence to back 1 and 2. I'm not sure where the fiction falls in to his worldview, however.Ah so you base your understanding of the world on fiction...got it your easier to understand now.
Yes and Wernher von Braun assuming he survives the first world war (if it occurs) may have put Germany (Nazi or not as we are talking alt.History) into space 20 years earlier.A lot of the leaps in US aerospace technology was due to the fact that the Nazi Scientists that they captured at the end of the war were better than the Russians Nazi Scientists.
There was a limited series of graphic novels which posits Britain putting the snark on both the United States and Russia and capturing them all for itself. and launching the world's only space programme. (in of course a proper British way)
"When I launch into orbit it's going to be sitting in a proper chair in a pressurised cabin wearing a proper jacket... not some glorified monkey suit."
Most of the leaps in U.S. aerospace technology was mainy due to the fact that the United States was willing (and able) to throw alot more money into the research. In fact at the end of World War 2 in just about every area of industry the United States was sitting in a very good position being the only major country which....
1. Had not suffered significant losses of population
2. Had not had the bulk of it's major industries burned down to the ground due to invasion or aerial bombardment.
These fortuitous circumstances are the main reason the United States enjoyed the longest period of prosperity on record.
I know, I just think that like most things it is more complicated then the simplistic world view being bantered about, by some on this thread. But as they say ignorance is Bliss.
Ah so you base your understanding of the world on fiction...got it your easier to understand now.
CJ, you did start this line of debate with a hypothetical situation. I do not see how someone bringing up another hypothetical situation can suddenly be accused of basing all of their reasoning on 'fiction'. You are making a huge leap there. Furthermore, your dismissive tone is exactly the sort of thing you complain about in the Civil Religious Discussion thread.