Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw.
I have to say that this is not something my players often use, except perhaps to cast a spell, which has clear rules about interruption.
Which is why I bring up this question. Also let me just say the following scenario is entirely hypothetical, but imagined because of a similar in game situation.
[] [] [] []
[] [r][f][t]
[] [x][] []
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r = PC rogue
x = helpless opponent
f = enemy fighter
t = PC barbarian
Rogue's turn in the initiative, the rogue moved into this position to coup de grace the helpless opponent (that has been put to sleep by a PC caster that is not in the frame) and to flank the enemy fighter. So she uses her standard action to start the full round action coup de grace.
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace (pronounced "coo day grahs") to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
Since making the coup de grace provokes an AoO from the fighter, he gets to immediately interrupt and roll an attack of opportunity. He rolls a successful hit and the rogue takes damage. Does that interrupt the coup de grace? Should the rogue make some kind of a check to continue the successful coup de grace? My initial thought was, no, she's in a stabbing motion, whether or not she gets hit (maybe even stabbed herself) she'll more than likely finish the motion pretty close to on target.
However if we look at the scenario a different way, I think you might come up with a different ruling. Say the rogue has the feat rapid reload. Previous turn she shot the fighter, so this turn she uses her free action to reload the crossbow, move action to step into position, and then starts the full round action coup de grace (which, as shown above, is legal with a crossbow). Now when the fighter interrupts with their AoO it seems entirely feasible to me that on a successful hit they throw the rogue off balance or shift their weight a little, which should require some kind of a check: acrobatics? concentration? (like a spell caster might have to make) maybe even just roll up the attack as you normally would and if it's a hit the coup de grace is successful?
I realize from a rules perspective there's no check that needs to be made, and combat should continue in the initiative order without interruption, but from a flavor perspective it seems like some kind of a check is necessary.
In addition, there is one more rules scenario to look at. Say the rogue uses the crossbow, and suffers the AoO. What if the AoO drops the rogue to zero hit points or below? Does the coup de grace happen anyway? I mean pulling the trigger on a crossbow is a pretty quick thing to happen. It certainly doesn't take 6 seconds.
From a rules perspective you don't roll the damage on the coup de grace until the rogue's turn in the next initiative round correct? So does that mean the coup de grace doesn't actually take place until then?
From a rules perspective you dont need to roll a check, and if the rogue is dropped to unconcious or otherwise disabled so he cant coup de grace, then he doesnt do it. Its not just shooting the crossbow thats in the action, its lining it up at the person's temple or over their heart that makes it a full round action.
From a flavor perspective you have forgotten that combat is not actually occuring in turn order, that is just a convenient way to deal with multiple combatants in terms of rules. Combat is fluid and continuous. The rogues coupe de grace is not interupted because it is essentially happening at the same time as the fighter's attack on the rogue.
As Kolokotroni said, usually it is a bad idea to use two standard actions for a full round action anyway. A surprise round is the common exception to this, and then still not often used.
Since making the coup de grace provokes an AoO from the fighter, he gets to immediately interrupt and roll an attack of opportunity. He rolls a successful hit and the rogue takes damage. Does that interrupt the coup de grace? Should the rogue make some kind of a check to continue the successful coup de grace?
No and no. People get confused because spells get interrupted with aoo, so they think anything can be interrupted by an aoo. They cannot. The fighter would have to kill or disarm the rogue in order to stop him.
From a rules perspective you don't roll the damage on the coup de grace until the rogue's turn in the next initiative round correct? So does that mean the coup de grace doesn't actually take place until then?
Correct. The fighter gets to move in between the rogues turns. That means the fighter is going to get 2 whacks to kill the rogue with (the aoo and his regular attack) The fighter can (and if he likes his friend, should) bullrush the rogue away from his downed friend on his own regular action in the round.
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By the book, you are correct, there is no check to be made, as long as it does not kill the rogue, the killing blow finishes. If the AoO drops the rogue to 0 HP's, then he falls unconscious and cannot finish the attack.
Now, if you want a roll, I would do the CMB thing. Add damage from the AoO as a penalty to either the hit, or the critical check. I know that both are assumed to be auto successful. But you can just assume that the auto success is a rolled 20, and apply it from there.
For example:
Your rogue (+10 Melee to-hit, 20hp) starts his Coup-de-grace. He gets hit by the fighter's AoO, who does a minor 15 points of damage.
a) RAW- The rogue finishes the Coup-de-Grace next turn, not effected by the AoO.
b) penalty to the hit roll- The Rogue would have rolled a +15 tohit (+10 base, +20 auto hit, -15 damage). does this still hit the AC of the downed target?
b) penalty to the Crit check- The rogue would still auto hit, but the crit check would be at a +15. Does this confirm the crit?
It all depends on how much you, as the DM, want the AoO to effect the Coup.
Just ideas. Not played with them enough to work out how they would be in play.
From a rules perspective you dont need to roll a check, and if the rogue is dropped to unconcious or otherwise disabled so he cant coup de grace, then he doesnt do it. Its not just shooting the crossbow thats in the action, its lining it up at the person's temple or over their heart that makes it a full round action.
From a flavor perspective you have forgotten that combat is not actually occuring in turn order, that is just a convenient way to deal with multiple combatants in terms of rules. Combat is fluid and continuous. [b]The rogues coupe de grace is not interupted because it is essentially happening at the same time as the fighter's attack on the rogue./b]
I hear you loud and clear, and I would adjudicate it that way as well. It's actually the whole simultaneous thing that throws me off. Even if lining up the crossbow over the heart is the first part of the action, isn't possible that being hit might cause the rogue to pull the trigger? or miss the intended vital organ? or even worse, miss entirely? It's possible I'm trying to put too much "realism" into my fantasy world.
I hear you loud and clear, and I would adjudicate it that way as well. It's actually the whole simultaneous thing that throws me off. Even if lining up the crossbow over the heart is the first part of the action, isn't possible that being hit might cause the rogue to pull the trigger? or miss the intended vital organ? or even worse, miss entirely? It's possible I'm trying to put too much "realism" into my fantasy world.From a rules perspective you dont need to roll a check, and if the rogue is dropped to unconcious or otherwise disabled so he cant coup de grace, then he doesnt do it. Its not just shooting the crossbow thats in the action, its lining it up at the person's temple or over their heart that makes it a full round action.
From a flavor perspective you have forgotten that combat is not actually occuring in turn order, that is just a convenient way to deal with multiple combatants in terms of rules. Combat is fluid and continuous. [b]The rogues coupe de grace is not interupted because it is essentially happening at the same time as the fighter's attack on the rogue./b]
The game abstracts for a reason. Why would this particular second be so different from another?
Characters are getting hit between attacks all the time. Why is it that one second is more important than another for the purpose of interupting the attack?
If a rogue draws a crossbow at the end of his turn, then the fighter hits him, then the next turn the rogue fires the crossbow, the rogue doesnt have to make a check to take his shot. Why should that be different from a simulation point of view then if the attack the fighter makes happens 3 seconds earlier in the middle of the rogues turn?
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o and no. People get confused because spells get interrupted with aoo, so they think anything can be interrupted by an aoo. They cannot. The fighter would have to kill or disarm the rogue in order to stop him.
In 3.5, Concentration checks might be called for in other circumstances than spell casting, including using a skill that provoked an AoO. It isn't a far reach to include coup de grace in 3.5. However, in PF, Concentration is no longer a skill and is associated only with spellcasting, and it doesn't come into play. I know this is the PF rules forum; I'm providing the 3.5 background for OP to understand where his thinking on this might be coming from.
For what it's worth, I think I saw a call for a concentration check for non-spellcasting only a couple of times; it's a rare beast both in theory and practice.
no and no. People get confused because spells get interrupted with aoo, so they think anything can be interrupted by an aoo. They cannot. The fighter would have to kill or disarm the rogue in order to stop him.In 3.5, Concentration checks might be called for in other circumstances than spell casting, including using a skill that provoked an AoO. It isn't a far reach to include coup de grace in 3.5. However, in PF, Concentration is no longer a skill and is associated only with spellcasting, and it doesn't come into play. I know this is the PF rules forum; I'm providing the 3.5 background for OP to understand where his thinking on this might be coming from.
For what it's worth, I think I saw a call for a concentration check for non-spellcasting only a couple of times; it's a rare beast both in theory and practice.
Thanks for that background. I'll bet that's why my mind keeps heading down that road. I played 3.5 for a lengthy period of time, and I'll bet that's where the desire to have a check came from.
@Kolokotroni -- I'm not disputing you. :) I think you're right, I just have some small part of me that felt like there should be some kind of something there. Howie23's thoughts about 3.5 are more than likely right on.
It always helps to think Movies when imagining things like this. How does this play out in action films?
Basically you're talking about the very old trope of the villian about the kill the damsel in distress. Damsel is helpless (in this case sleeped), villan is about to strike the killing blow with a knife, sword, crossbow, gun, what have you (coup de grace). Hero has only a moment to react (attack of opportunity). We see this in movies all the time playing out in different ways, each with an analog in the game mechanics:
1) Indiana Jones uses his whip to pull the gun from the Nazi's hand before he pulls the trigger on Marion (AoO used to disarm -- assume that he's got a feat that lets him take AoO with a whip, he is Indy after all)
2) Conan shatters the blade as it comes down on the Frizetta-girl human sacrifice (AoO used to sunder)
3) Jackie Chan sweeps the leg before the Tong thug's knife strikes home (AoO used to trip)
4) Heroine/sidekick strikes the villian from behind, knocking him out right before he was about to finish off the hero tied to the chair (hit or crit where the villain has few enough HPs left that it takes him under 0)
For the last one - Hit point are also an abstraction of the 'ability to make injuries less severe', they don't just represent resilience. So, just hitting for damage which isn't enough to drop the target might not even be a palpable hit, it could be the scene where the villan dodged at the last second and scoffs, or could be one of those hits where the guy just smiles showing how tough he is, and regains aim with little trouble. This is why simple hits don't usually interrupt action.
There's the exception for spells because they're that much more delicate and tricky things to pull off.