I'll be starting in a new PF group and had already chosen to play a summoner before the rest of the party figured out what they wanted. I'd like to tweak the class to fit best into what we have.
We've got a barbarian/oracle, monk, alchemist and a rogue.
The summoner is currently built as an Archer with decent charisma. The reason for this is wanting to have something that the summoner could do other than simply buffing. The Eidolon will be a pounce-happy, weapon wielding quadraped.
We're starting at level 1 with 20 point buy.
Should I dump the archer idea and instead boost Con so for a buffer, HP heavy Eidolon? Additionally, we won't have that much utility spellcast power so I was thinking of dumping Str/Dex to bump Con and to boost Cha even more and grabbing Scribe Scroll, etc for utility casting. Thoughts?
Jack of Tales wrote: I'll be starting in a new PF group and had already chosen to play a summoner before the rest of the party figured out what they wanted. I'd like to tweak the class to fit best into what we have.
We've got a barbarian/oracle, monk, alchemist and a rogue.
The summoner is currently built as an Archer with decent charisma. The reason for this is wanting to have something that the summoner could do other than simply buffing. The Eidolon will be a pounce-happy, weapon wielding quadraped.
We're starting at level 1 with 20 point buy.
Should I dump the archer idea and instead boost Con so for a buffer, HP heavy Eidolon? Additionally, we won't have that much utility spellcast power so I was thinking of dumping Str/Dex to bump Con and to boost Cha even more and grabbing Scribe Scroll, etc for utility casting. Thoughts?
I think Scribe Scroll is best reserved for classes whose repertoire is wide but preparation limits the kinds of spells they can cast (in other words, either Wizards who get it as a class feature or Clerics, possibly Witches). For a spontaneous caster, you can only scribe the spells you already have available, which means that the only benefit would be if you have some spells that don't matter if they're low CL or not and you desperately need those extra casts. When it comes to the summoner, I don't think it's necessary or enough of a benefit. You'd be better suited with archery-based feats, since you're going as an archer for a tag-team combo with your Eidolon. You really don't get many feats. I'd think long and hard before taking Scribe Scroll as a Summoner.
I'm not going to make any suggestion for your Eidolon, but will advise against a weapon-wielder Quadruped. That's really all. You can still do it if you want, but if you don't mind an opinion I'd suggest going with a Biped focusing on claws and reach, push, and pull abilities (as well as other utility evolutions and obviously strength boosting evolutions, with Large once you get to 8th level). That's just my opinion, especially as an archer Summoner. Do whatever you want. You can always change your Eidolon's style at a level up (but you cannot change its base form, so really think carefully before you decide - just remember that a Quadruped will not receive reach advantages as a tall creature at larger size categories since it's long, but a Biped will).
The archer Summoner should probably have good Con anyway. Regarding stat spread, I'd say make your CHA a 14 (and plan to apply the ability bonuses at 12th and 16th so that you still get all 6 levels of Summoner Spells available), and focus on your DEX, CON, and STR if you want to use composite bows, otherwise focus even more on the other two. Avoid Summoner spells that depend on the DC (since you'll want to be primarily buffing the Eidolon and yourself anyway), and you should be fine. Note that the Black Tentacles and Wall of Fire (and other such walls) spells don't depend on your DC of spells.
The archer idea can work, but you won't be comparable to a Wizard for sheer utility (then again not many classes are). You'll just be an arcane styled battler, which is perfectly fine and probably quite fun.
Thanks for the advice on Scribe Scroll, I forgot that you can only scribe spells that you know.
Does the reach of the Eidolon come with more area that provokes opportunity attacks? I was going to go quadraped to get the full attack on a charge. What can the biped do that'll give it push/pull on regular attacks? If I go this route, the summon will be much more tanky and sticky, correct?
Jack of Tales wrote: Thanks for the advice on Scribe Scroll, I forgot that you can only scribe spells that you know.
Does the reach of the Eidolon come with more area that provokes opportunity attacks? I was going to go quadraped to get the full attack on a charge. What can the biped do that'll give it push/pull on regular attacks? If I go this route, the summon will be much more tanky and sticky, correct?
The reach of any character also dictates the area that it threatens for an attack of opportunity. If you have 20' of reach, you can make an attack of opportunity if someone provokes one within 20' of you.
The full attack on a charge with the quadruped is a staple "broken" aspect of it, but you can do that if you really think you need that. If your Eidolon has a ridiculous amount of reach, on the other hand, you might be able to start off with a full attack action or, even more importantly, provide a hefty bit of battlefield control (and opportunity attacks all over the place). Obviously, Combat Reflexes would be a required feat for your Eidolon in this case (and Biped so that he gets the reach boosts from going larger). You only need the Reach evolution once for one attack (just to get increased threatened area). Your DM might let it apply to both arms instead of just one, for example, but the way I read it it only says one attack. They're a joint attack, though. He might even allow all attacks of that "type" to gain the reach, but I probably wouldn't allow that.
Since all natural attacks get the full BAB (at least if they're all primary attacks, which is certainly how I would build my Eidolon), I might even consider Power Attack as a feat for the Eidolon. I'd suggest Improved Natural Attack (the monster feat) and pick a dedicated weapon (I would go with claws, since Biped gets them free, and evolution points are valuable). In addition, I'd consider giving the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat to him, and pick your favorite reach weapon (Fauchard is an obvious one that comes to mind with reach, trip, and a crit range of 18-20, plus it looks cool, though it DOES require two hands - Or you could pick the Scorpion Whip which has reach, trip, and disarm and is just one-handed).
Alternatively, you can just have the spell Lesser Evolution Surge saved in case you think he needs to have reach, and just give him a longspear to whip out when necessary. Presto! You have ridiculous reach advantage. He'll threaten up to ten or more squares away at level 8 when he gets the Large evolution (4 points - and honestly worth taking for the bonuses) and then after you cast Enlarge Person on him. Don't forget to give him a Dex belt if you think he'll need those extra attacks of opportunity, or better yet just save it for a Str belt to boost his power, and give him the Dex evolution when he gets Large (because once he has the Large evolution, all Str and Con evolutions cost twice as much, so just give him the Dex evolution instead if he needs it). It'll also help boost his AC.
This is a great combo if you're an archer Summoner, since you might not even need to have the Precise Shot feat due to the fact that unless both targets are within the threaten range, they don't count. So if your eidolon pushes someone back to be out of the melee range, they no longer count as being in melee, and you don't have the -4 penalty. Of course, your mileage may vary. You might find that you really need the Precise Shot feat, but considering how you aren't even a primary archer, I would just ignore it. Your Eidolon is the main man. You merely assist with attacking or with spells.
The following Evolutions are the ones I mentioned.
1 point:
Pull (Ex)
An eidolon gains the ability to pull creatures closer with a successful attack. Select one type of natural attack. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the target of the attack is pulled 5 feet closer to the eidolon. This ability only works on creatures of a size equal to or smaller than the eidolon. Creatures pulled in this way do not provoke attacks of opportunity. The eidolon must have a reach of 10 feet or more to select this evolution. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.
Push (Ex)
An eidolon gains the ability to push creatures away with a successful attack. Select one type of natural attack. Whenever the eidolon makes a successful attack of the selected type, it can attempt a free combat maneuver check. If successful, the target of the attack is pushed 5 feet directly away from the eidolon. This ability only works on creatures of a size equal to or smaller than the eidolon. Creatures pushed in this way do not provoke attacks of opportunity. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.
Reach (Ex)
One of an eidolon’s attacks is capable of striking at foes at a distance. Pick one attack. The eidolon’s reach with that attack increases by 5 feet.
Jack of Tales wrote: I'll be starting in a new PF group and had already chosen to play a summoner before the rest of the party figured out what they wanted. I'd like to tweak the class to fit best into what we have.
We've got a barbarian/oracle, monk, alchemist and a rogue.
I would go for more casting over mediocre archery.
Now here's a question: how are the PCs above built? The barb/oracle I assume is melee thug-like. The monk I assume assume is melee (unless I hear Zen Archer I read monk as melee). The alchemist I think as a thrower unless I hear differently. And the rogue I tend to think of as melee (but not STR based) unless I'm told differently.
Is my initial assessment close?
The party certainly needs a good caster. Depending on the rogue's build if you don't look to take diplomacy you might have your barbarian doing the talking for the party as well.
Do you use traits?
I would suggest a halfling summoner that tends to be hidden while buffing. Go with the following point buy:
STR 05
INT 14
WIS 07
DEX 16
CON 14
CHA 19
Traits: Make diplomacy & bluff class skills
Feats: Spell focus: conj, Augment Summoning, Skill focus: stealth, Hellcat stealth, item creation feat (if needed by 9th otherwise).
Skills would include diplomacy, bluff, stealth, UMD, dips into other CHA skills & fly, possibly dips in to a knowledge or two.
-James
james maissen wrote:
I would suggest a halfling summoner that tends to be hidden while buffing. Go with the following point buy:
STR 05
INT 14
WIS 07
DEX 16
CON 14
CHA 19
Traits: Make diplomacy & bluff class skills
Feats: Spell focus: conj, Augment Summoning, Skill focus: stealth, Hellcat stealth, item creation feat (if needed by 9th otherwise).
Skills would include diplomacy, bluff, stealth, UMD, dips into other CHA skills & fly, possibly dips in to a knowledge or two.
-James
You're pretty on the ball with what the group will be playing. The barb is going the route of a rage prophet. The monk decided he was going to play a melee cleric instead since its hard to get all of the stats needed for monk with 20 point buy.
I have a bias against halflings, I don't like the race. We are using traits but I also feel that going full caster doesn't net the summoner anything. You get an additional 3-4 spells spread out over the first four slots and you get more Summon Monster uses then you'll ever likely need. Since the summoner's spells rely primarily with buff/debuff, he won't have much to do in combat after tossing the spells onto his summon. The one advantage is that spells like Grease become useful due to a higher Cha. UMD would also be much higher, which is good.
However, for the first 3 or so levels the summoner will be stuck standing around for half of the combat after dropping one spell due to not wanting to waste every slot each fight. I suppose I don't see the advantages of an extra spell at 2nd/3rd and +1 or +2 to spell DC's over the ability to always take part in the combat regardless of how many spells he has left for the day.
Hmm..although that build you tossed up doesn't have bad dex, so it could still use a crossbow well at low levels. So I guess full caster WOULD be better..
Jack of Tales wrote:
I have a bias against halflings, I don't like the race. We are using traits but I also feel that going full caster doesn't net the summoner anything.
Halflings do well with this build as they can sneak very well. Use the APG variant to ditch bonuses on athletic skills for no penalty on sneaking/sniping.
You get a racial bonus to saves, size bonus to stealth and to hit with attacks (i.e. ranged attacks) and a stat bonus to both DEX & CHA. It works perfectly with this build & vice versa.
At low levels casters won't have much in terms of memorized/sloted spells. Make due with consumables a bit (a scroll here or there can go along way) and when all else fails a crossbow shot can work.
Simply spending the first round enlarging the barbarian each combat will do well for combats. At low levels the eidolon can drop easily so you will burn through your summon SLAs. Likewise at times boosting your Eidolon via mage armor (already on) and shield (1st round) can make it a decent tank, though in general the barbarian is going to draw attention, so this will work only when you can split the bad guys.
Consider if 2/3 or more of your actions are going to be based upon casting/CHA related abilities then investing in the remaining 1/3 is not all that cost effective.
Lastly at a +8 UMD, activating a wand of magic missiles will often be a better chance for damage than firing a projectile into melee (and likely through cover). Now that's more of a PFS thought in that they are fairly free with 1st level wands in that system.
-James
It's hard for me to recommend anything other than a half-elf for summoner; those extra evolution surge points are worth more than anyone can understand. Also, they can take net proficiency, which is a great use off your action (better than bow-plinking).
Try this:
Str: 7
Int: 12
Wis: 12
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Chr: 14
Proficiency (Net) alt racial.
Then go with a quad and claws, you should start with cla/bite-reach and improve from there (pounce at 2). Start with the feat Combat Reflexes.
Bipeds are better short-term, but Quad is money.
How is a Net proficiency better for a caster than crossbow hunting?
Cartigan wrote: How is a Net proficiency better for a caster than crossbow hunting? As levels go up, just being "guy with bow" does very little damage; especially as a 3/4 BAB class with no precision. Net always has several fantastic advantages
*no 5' step... Critical VS mages, and works great with combat reflexes
*All allies are +2 to hit. The netted is -2 to hit.
*No running away
They can burn their standard action to maybe get out, but then you've won anyway.
It's very powerful, and since it is VS touch AC far more likely to land, even without Point blank / precise. Also great VS those high-AC baddies, especially early.
You can eventually take QuickDraw to multi-entangle people while under haste (or above 8th level.
With all of that said, if you lower con to 14, Int to 7, you can have 14 Str, 15 Chr and take an Heirloom Masterwork Composite Long Bow +2 Strength and fire that. Then feat 1st point black, 3rd precise and "switch hit" between bow and net :).
Thalin wrote: Net always has several fantastic advantages Presumably not including being a squishy character within 10ft of things that will hurt you?
Quote: *No running away If you can win a tug of war with the caught character.
You might want to check that:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592
Cartigan wrote: Thalin wrote: Net always has several fantastic advantages Presumably not including being a squishy character within 10ft of things that will hurt you?
Quote: *No running away If you can win a tug of war with the caught character.
Define "Squishy", you have 11 hp at 1st (and 7.5 per lvl later), AC 17 (chain shirt)... that makes you better off than the monk and combat cleric. And you just hide behind someone and throw, if you hit they can't 5-foot towards you. Besides, especially low you're less squishy than the Eidilon.
As to them running, they can try; at half movement, with no 5' steps :). I play a summoner who does it, even as you get up in levels it continues to be a powerful way to take advantage of additional actions. Again, better than light damage "plinking" with a lower-Dex 3/4 BAB character.
Personally, I'd prefer to be in melee and give the eidolon Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, and In Harm's Way. Then give it some DR when available.
By 12th level the eidolon would be giving everyone in it's reach a +2 to AC and saves (+4 for you). It could use aid another as an attack of opportunity to bump an adjacent ally's AC another 2 points, and if the ally was still hit, it could take the hit instead which would then probably be reduced by the eidolon's DR. Plus, if you're already adjacent to it, healing it back up again isn't as difficult.
Gjorbjond wrote: Personally, I'd prefer to be in melee and give the eidolon Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard, and In Harm's Way.
Considering that almost the entire rest of the party is melee, I humbly suggest that a melee based character is not the best fit for this party.
You are going to have a barbarian mutt in melee, a melee rogue, a melee cleric, as well as your eidolon.
There's not going to be much room for you as well, especially when your eidolon gains size categories.
I think that you're better served, even when there is room by enlarging the barbarian and your eidolon.
This party needs more real casters.
The cleric is going to focus on fighting, the alchemist likely throwing damage, so some crowd control that's not damage is what's called for here. The summoner does this well when given a decent DC. Spell focus conjuration and a high CHA will do well with this.
-James
On consideration I'm going to go with:
Half-Elf
Alternate trait for Arcane Training. Adaptability goes toward Use Magic Device.
Str: 7
Dex: 16
Con: 13
Int: 7
Wis:7
Cha:19
The DM is giving us 1 trait and forcing the other to be Heirloom. We start with 1 MW weapon (from the heirloom), 1 free mundane item of any type (which has to get passed by him) and then 450gp of gear. I figure I'll pick up like...a MW heavy repeating crossbow or something to help out at low levels. The 450 will go toward a MW greatsword for the Eidolon. The free mundane will be a large-size greatsword for when he's enlarged.
The rest of the character:
Skills: Diplomacy (from the Fiendish Presence trait), Use Magic Device, Linguistics (for Ignan to talk to summons in the future. Recommendations on what else to take would be helpful. I'll probably go through the summon monster list again before settling on something.)
Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Spells:
0: Guidance, Message, Read/Detect Magic
1: Grease, Mage Armor
Eidolon:
Quadruped
Skills: Perception, Acrobatics, Climb, Stealth
Feats: MWP(Greatsword)
Evolutions: Imp. Nat armor, Limbs (arms)
The DM may be allowing armor to be used on the summon so I may take Shield instead of Mage armor.
Ok first of all when you enlarge your weapons enlarge too, so you won't need to have a large weapon at hand.
Second if you are taking the heirloom trait why not take a longbow?
Also i think that allowing armor for the eidolon isn't a good idea.
leo1925 wrote: Ok first of all when you enlarge your weapons enlarge too, so you won't need to have a large weapon at hand.
Second if you are taking the heirloom trait why not take a longbow?
Also i think that allowing armor for the eidolon isn't a good idea.
This is true. You might have a backup as if disarmed the weapon will shrink back to size and won't grow back when picked back up.
Disarming enlarged opponents is a nice tactic that way (especially if they don't have backup weapons).
Also if you're going to spend a feat for proficiency, while not an exotic weapon over the greatsword?
-James
leo1925 wrote: Ok first of all when you enlarge your weapons enlarge too, so you won't need to have a large weapon at hand.
Second if you are taking the heirloom trait why not take a longbow?
Also i think that allowing armor for the eidolon isn't a good idea.
There's no point taking a longbow if you have no strength.
I didn't know about that Enlarge person would enlarge weapons also. That's good to know!
I took the greatsword over an exotic weapon because of damage dice. It didn't seem as if the Elven Curved Sword was any better than the greatsword, although it did have a 18-20 crit range.
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