When spells give redundant effects, is it that the weaker/older spell is cleared from the stack or is its effects just latent until the stronger/newer spell wears/dispels?
Specifically
Transformation has the description:
Components V, S, M (a potion of bull's strength, which you drink and whose effects are subsumed by the spell effects)
When it talks about its effects subsuming bull's strength, would it remove the buff or just prevent stacking?
If I were a level 20 caster for example and casted both in the same turn (quickening the Bull's Strength), in 11 turns would Transformation wear and let me keep Bull's Strength?
More realistically, before entering a known fight I would like to cast Bull's Strength on myself since the duration would essentially last the entire fight, but intermittently make use of Transformation since its duration is only in rounds. Would that be possible or would Bull's Strength just be removed from the stack?
I know the effects wouldn't stack, just unsure if the spells could stack for duration purposes.
Phage wrote: When spells give redundant effects, is it that the weaker/older spell is cleared from the stack or is its effects just latent until the stronger/newer spell wears/dispels? Latent. Spells in D&D never turn off or are dispelled forcefully after being cast unless one spell cast twice is the same spell, which overrides the other (Two bull's strengths don't make two spells, but one spell that's rewritten).
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When it talks about its effects subsuming bull's strength, would it remove the buff or just prevent stacking?
If I were a level 20 caster for example and casted both in the same turn (quickening the Bull's Strength), in 11 turns would Transformation wear and let me keep Bull's Strength?
To cast transformation, the material component is a potion of bull's strength which is included into the bonuses granted by transformation.
If you cast both, yes, that is what would happen.
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More realistically, before entering a known fight I would like to cast Bull's Strength on myself since the duration would essentially last the entire fight, but intermittently make use of Transformation since its duration is only in rounds. Would that be possible or would Bull's Strength just be removed from the stack?
I know the effects wouldn't stack, just unsure if the spells could stack for duration purposes.
Your idea is correct, except in many cases, an extended bull's strength could last an entire dungeon.
As an aside, Remember that transformation is not (D), so if you transform and the fight ends you are transformed for your CL in rounds. You can't dispel that magic.
Phage wrote: When spells give redundant effects, is it that the weaker/older spell is cleared from the stack or is its effects just latent until the stronger/newer spell wears/dispels?
Specifically
Transformation has the description:
Components V, S, M (a potion of bull's strength, which you drink and whose effects are subsumed by the spell effects)
When it talks about its effects subsuming bull's strength, would it remove the buff or just prevent stacking?
The potion of bull strength is the listed material component for the spell. Like all maerial components it is consumed by the casting. So there is no potion to revert to once the spell has run it's course.
Phage wrote:
More realistically, before entering a known fight I would like to cast Bull's Strength on myself since the duration would essentially last the entire fight, but intermittently make use of Transformation since its duration is only in rounds. Would that be possible or would Bull's Strength just be removed from the stack?
I know the effects wouldn't stack, just unsure if the spells could stack for duration purposes.
Seeing how Bull's Strength is an enhancement bonus, why not simply have a belt of STR +4 (or higher)?
By 11th level (or higher) you should certainly afford such, while you're not likely to be able to cast the spell ahead of combat with any regularity (and even when you do get the option, there are likely better options if you are limited in number of pre-casts).
-James
For casting purposes it would be both spells separately (ideally pre-combat cast of Bull's Strength), the potion would be prepared for Transformation purposes, which I think means if I made the potion that day it would be two Bull's Strength and a Transformation total?
Ice Titan, what is a (D) spell? Is it just a forced duration, ie I wouldn't be able to cast until the remaining rounds worth of time post combat or is there more to it?
Also thanks for pointing out extend spell feat, totally snagging that!
James, that's because I'm still confused on enhancement bonuses and in general what stacks with what.
If I understand you correctly, would that mean the gear enhancement bonus and spell enhancement bonus could never stack? In that case that would indeed be silly to bother with the spell at that point since I would aim for a +4 or +6 belt.
In the situation where I did have a +6 belt and casted Transformation, would my strength go down by 2 or would I net +6str/4dex/4con between the two? Is it always the stronger of the buff or do I choose the stack order? Is it the individual buff's bonus or the source's equivalent level (Transfomation would be a higher tier spell)?
Thanks for the answers and advice. Still learning the rules, so unfortunately I keep running into ambiguous situations that I know general rules for, but not overlapping rules.
Also another quick buff question,
Can I cast Rage (spell) on myself and then cast other buffs or does the non-casting feature of the ability also affect the buff?
Could I ever have Rage (spell) and Transformation active on me together (me being the caster for both)?
Phage wrote: Ice Titan, what is a (D) spell? Is it just a forced duration, ie I wouldn't be able to cast until the remaining rounds worth of time post combat or is there more to it?
Whenever a spell duration end with a (D) that means the spell is Dismissable. Meaning you can choose to end the duration at anytime by dismissing the spell. You dont have to wait for the spell to run its entire duration if you want it to end sooner.
Phage wrote: Also another quick buff question,
Can I cast Rage (spell) on myself and then cast other buffs or does the non-casting feature of the ability also affect the buff?
Could I ever have Rage (spell) and Transformation active on me together (me being the caster for both)?
Contingency would be the only way, unless you had an ability to allow you to cast while raging.
Mind you you need not be the caster for rage.
You would do well to find the section where they detail named bonuses and read that, as well as the section (which could be very close to that one) where they talk about overlapping effects.
In general you take the highest benefit. So if you had a +6 enhancement bonus to STR and two +4 enhancement bonuses to STR then you would have a +6 enhancement bonus to STR.
-James
Phage wrote: For casting purposes it would be both spells separately (ideally pre-combat cast of Bull's Strength), the potion would be prepared for Transformation purposes, which I think means if I made the potion that day it would be two Bull's Strength and a Transformation total? Technically. You want to buy a potion. It costs 300 gold. By high levels, 300 gold is not a lot.
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Also thanks for pointing out extend spell feat, totally snagging that!
I truly suggest you don't! Look into Chapter 15: Magic Items at the Rods section. You can buy a rod of extend metamagic, lesser for 3,000gp, or a normal rod of extend metamagic for 11,000gp and it will apply the metamagic for you three times per day whenever you cast a spell without increasing the level of the spell. Extend spell is one of the cheapest metamagic rods. If you're still going with a sorcerer, metamagics are a full round action to cast, so the rod is even more valuable.
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If I understand you correctly, would that mean the gear enhancement bonus and spell enhancement bonus could never stack? In that case that would indeed be silly to bother with the spell at that point since I would aim for a +4 or +6 belt.
Indeed. Transformation doesn't just give you strength, though. A +4 to Con and Dex is handy, +4 natural armor bonus stacks with enhancement bonuses and other natural sources of armor, such as a dragon disciple's bonuses, +5 competence on Fortitude is a huge bonus, and it raises your base attack bonus from what it might be (1/2 or 3/4) to full BAB, likely giving you extra attacks and more benefit from power attack.
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In the situation where I did have a +6 belt and cast Transformation, would my strength go down by 2 or would I net +6str/4dex/4con between the two? Is it always the stronger of the buff or do I choose the stack order? Is it the individual buff's bonus or the source's equivalent level (Transfomation would be a higher tier spell)?
You always take the largest of each type of bonus.
The only bonuses that stack are dodge bonuses and untyped bonuses from different sources. For instance, the dodge feat's +1 dodge to AC would stack with a theoretical spell's +3 dodge bonus to AC. If a spell, like transformation, granted a +4 untyped bonus to natural armor, it would stack with another spell that granted a +4 untyped bonus to natural armor, such as form of the dragon or beast shape, but you could not cast transformation twice to gain +4 and +4 to natural armor.
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Thanks for the answers and advice. Still learning the rules, so unfortunately I keep running into ambiguous situations that I know general rules for, but not overlapping rules.
No problem.
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