| Liongold |
ok this is only Hypotheical but...
***i know this defenatly breaks RAW but...***
ok i have a Half Dragon- Elf Inquister3/fighter1, with a 24STR (if i can find a belt higher), would yall allow a "2handed weapon" to be weilded 1 handed?
my light load is 233lbs and a Falchion (or greatswords) weighs 8lbs and a Scimitar weighs only 4lbs. plus if their mithral (which matches my fasion style) they would only weigh 4 and 2 lbs. to a 24+str char that should me nothing.
or maybe duel weild a pair of Falchions (or greatswords)...?
I have a Vision a me standing wings open, breathing fire, swinging these 2 Falchions and blood spraying everywhere, Intimidate check anyone...? "Braaa ha ha ha. I WILL DESTROY YOU!!!!"
I'll ask my GM when he gets here in a few min, wish me luck.
PS It will be a while but duel weilding a pair of keen flaming burst falchions would be AWSOME!!
| Mauril |
Well, if I was letting my players start out with the half-dragon template, I'm probably not too concerned with balance. So, why not? I would make my player take massive penalties for dual wielding them (-8/-8 with the TWF feat, -4/-4 with ITWF, -2/-2 with GTWF) but sure. I might impose the -2 penalty for wielding an inappropriately sized weapons to wield just a single one in one hand.
| Liongold |
Dear Mauril,
This is liongold's DM lol. I am sincerely interested in your DM style. Giving the half-dragon template being unbalanced? Well I guess any ignorant person with a little bit of an ego would make that assumption on the grounds of not knowing absolutely anything about the game we are playing.
Please don't think thats a bash I am just really interested in your GM style. Also, I agree witht the penalties on the bigger weapons in each hand. I might tweek the numbers a little to make it a little more... balanced.
| cdglantern |
I wouldn't allow it without the use of another feat similar to Monkey Grip.
That would be the feat cost. Basically we can rationalize tons of real world situations that seem to disagree with the rules, but the game isn't the real world. Sometimes the rules allow us to do things in game impossible in real life, and other times they keep us from doing things that some can do in real life.
Otherwise the +8 Str mod of the half dragon, actually is giving characters more boost than is currently figured into the mathematics of the system.
| Black Fang |
Massive Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can use heavier than normal weapons in each hand.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Str 17+, Dex 15+, BAB +7.
Benefit: You may use any one-handed weapon in your off hand as though it were a light weapon.
Fighter Bonus Feat: Starting at 11th level, if you took this as a fighter bonus feat, you can use a two-handed weapon in your primary hand. However, using a double weapon in this way grants no extra attacks.
You must wield a weapon in your off hand to keep your balance (not a shield or other object.)
Originally from The Collected Book of Experimental Might. I highly recommend it, even with it being 3.5 edition.
| cdglantern |
Massive Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can use heavier than normal weapons in each hand.
Prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting, Str 17+, Dex 15+, BAB +7.
Benefit: You may use any one-handed weapon in your off hand as though it were a light weapon.
Fighter Bonus Feat: Starting at 11th level, if you took this as a fighter bonus feat, you can use a two-handed weapon in your primary hand. However, using a double weapon in this way grants no extra attacks.
You must wield a weapon in your off hand to keep your balance (not a shield or other object.)Originally from The Collected Book of Experimental Might. I highly recommend it, even with it being 3.5 edition.
yeah, I like that. Strength needed and dex, and level requirement to show a degree of training. Cool.
| Mauril |
Not a bash? You might consider not calling me an "ignorant person with a little bit of an ego". That said, no major offense taken. So I shall move on to discuss the ability in question.
The issue with wielding two-handed weapons with one hand isn't an issue of weight, but rather of size. A six foot person whirling around a six foot sword will have trouble making sure it clears vital parts of the body while still being dangerous. Especially for swords. A staff is different, since any section of the round surface can be struck as well as the ends, or a simple spear, which just requires knowing which end is deadly. Using two six foot swords together in a two weapon style is going to be increasingly difficult, not only for the weights involved, but also for the fact that a lot of the space around the wielder is being taken up with one weapon, leaving little room for the second.
Since there haven't been "hurting yourself and your friends on accident" penalty (outside of Crit Decks) since 2nd Edition, this is usually compensated for with penalties to hit. Shooting into melee takes penalties unless you use a feat. Wielding two weapons without a feat (one-handed weapons, mind you) incurs a penalty of -6/-10. Using light weapons makes it -4/-8. One could suggest that the progression would show -8/-12 for two-handed weapons, though I would suggest putting the "inappropriately sized weapons" penalty in as well, to account for the increased size as well as the increased cumbersome nature of the larger weapon.
So, I'd start with -10/-14, which would be crippling for a normal player. But a CR 5 character with a +10 to hit (not counting feats or magic) shouldn't mind them so much. Taking the TWF feat drops the normal penalties to -4/-4 for one-handed weapons. Following the trend of -2 for going up a size and -2 for being inappropriately sized, you get a convenient -8/-8 for TWF with flachions. ITWF lowers those each by 2, and GTWF lowers them again by 2, taking you to -6/-6 and -4/-4 respectively.
"Tweaking" the numbers much more, especially intending to lower them as your post suggests to me, would make it foolish to both with dual wielding one-handed weapons.
As far as my GM-ing style, I feel that the half-X creature templates are underrated in terms of CR. Especially since it stacks with the base race. You aren't just a "half-dragon" in the same way you are a "half-elf". You are a half-dragon and a human, or elf, or grippli or drow. So I have to assume that your player took another base race, gaining the abilities of that race as well. Taking a core race opens up racial feats, alternate racial abilities and favored class options. When done for right, templates can be very, very powerful.
Also, concerning my GM-ing style, I prefer to power my characters with gear and opportunity, especially intangibles like connections with important figures or secrets. I don't like giving them powerful races or usurping the rules as written (as much as possible) just because a character thinks an idea would be cool. I will work within the rules as much as I can to let them play their concept, but I'm not going to disregard sections of them so I can make a player happy. If I have to do it for one, then I have to do it for all, and that quickly unbalances a game. I know that I am not omniscient and therefore won't be able to understand all the potential implications of altering/ignoring a rule. So, because of that, I like to leave the rules intact as much as possible, so that as many flaws of balance as possible can be attributed to the system and not my favoritism.
All that said, I do like to develop rules and have done so for my games. We have slightly tweaked iterative attacks and created our own domains (for the gods of our homebrew setting), among other things. We test and retest them as much as we can, and consistently evaluate our changes to see if they improve ease and quality of play.
| Liongold |
Not a bash? You might consider not calling me an "ignorant person with a little bit of an ego". That said, no major offense taken. So I shall move on to discuss the ability in question.
whoa there sparky, hes gone now.
Balance is not much of an issue in that story. were all monstras humanoids, or templated. were all freaks and we try to balance with each other.
i wasn't realy looking to find pleople to bash my idea. i wasn't looking to have rules quoated at me.
**i know this defenatly breaks RAW but...***
I have a Vision a me standing wings open, breathing fire, swinging these 2 Falchions and blood spraying everywhere, Intimidate check anyone...? "Braaa ha ha ha. I WILL DESTROY YOU!!!!"
wouldnt that be awsome?
yesterday a spent the day at work shovling snow. i was walking back the the shop, and i was carring 2 large snow shovels one in each hand (as if they were swords) before anyone noticed my geekieness i swong them a few times. (they were not balanced to be swong like that. lol) and i thought if these were balance like a sword would be. and i was stronger... much stronger like a hulk of my 24str char in one of the games i play... how awsome would that be... Im a dork and i play inside my head, while the rest of the world does what they do. (sometimes i wonder...what do they think about...?)
anyways... when i got home i typed my vision to people who understand what it is to have an imanagination. i was asking what yall thought, i know it breaks the rules, not if it would be balanced.
anyways... what do yall think?
| nicklas Læssøe |
personally i would find that feat unbalancing, for to reduce the penaltys for wielding normal dual wield to -0/-0 is effectively giving +2 to hit to both hands with just a single feat.
But if you arnt concerned with raw as much, and dont mind unbalancing the game, then go for it, i just wouldnt want to use it for my games.
I do have one question for you though, and one i would suggest to my players if they approched me with that idea, how about bastard swords? they can effectively be wielded in 1 hand if you have the feat, and they are still quite large swords, and big enough to terrify anyone. That and couppled with the fact its within raw, i would personally go with that. but hey its your and your gms choice.
| Mauril |
I understand that you wanted to break RAW. I did read your post. However, breaking RAW doesn't mean throwing both common sense and balance out the window. If I were intent on addressing RAW only, I would have simply said "it can't be done, don't be silly" and moved on. However, hoping to help you and your GM figure out a way to make your ideal (which doesn't really work in RAW without Dazzling Display and Intimidating Prowess anyway) of dual wielding two-handed weapons and being intimidating, I presented a logical explanation of how I would rule what you asked for based on the game mechanics already in existence.
Since you didn't actually ask a question in your opening post, but just sort of made a statement, I had to assume that you were asking for advice. I offered you my advice and was mocked for it. I then explained myself, with the only hint of any ill feelings being addressed in the first sentence of my second post.
All that said, your game seems to have little care for book-balance and, one can only hope, your GM is very good at completely re-designing a game that took dozens (if not hundreds, since it was based on WotC content) of people to create and went through years of alpha and beta testing. I would suggest that the feat you are wanting to use is horridly broken, but I would say the same thing about getting flight at level 1, or a strength of 24 (16 base +2 racial +8 half-dragon) at level 1. So, I bid you the best of luck with your game and I truly hope that you all enjoy yourselves and your gaming style. I would not, but the world would be very boring if everyone was the same.
| HJ |
Massive Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
<SNIP>
This has been re-written as Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting in Complete Adventurer I believe.
I'd probably suggest that feat together with a Homebrew variant on Monkey Grip to allow the use of a two-handed weapon with one hand.
I have done something similar with Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword) & Oversized Two-weapon fighting. Its fun playing a character with a bad-ass big sword in each fist :P