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No save is allowed.
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The "Philter of Love" wondrous item from the APG has no save info one way or the other.
Does this mean no save is allowed, or does this mean the save should calculated based on the highest level spell in the requirements? I.e. should the be save: none, or save: DC 17 will (permanency is a 5th level spell)?
If no save is allowed, the price seems a bit low, no?
I don't see anything about a save, so assume there is none.
at 3,000gp for a one shot item that you need to convince/trick someone to drink, and then be the first person they see. I don't think they are -that- underpriced. If you can con someone into slugging it back, you could probably bluff/diplomacy them into being helpful anyway.
For getting rid of the effects, break enchantment is not to hard to cast.
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The rules for 'Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers' are on page 459 of the core book. Basically DC 10 + level of spell effect + Minimum ability Score modifier to cast the spell. Permanency has no save, so it'd be reasonable to base it off the Charm Monster portion (so DC 14 Will Save, based on the Bard version of Charm Monster)... although it's a weird one to leave the exact Save DC out of on the descriptive text... but to have it 'no save' means that lobbing these things down an ancient dragon's throat has just gotten you a new best friend...
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I actually kinda' like the two saves idea: one Vs the Charm Monster 'spell effect' and, if that works, another against the Permanancy 'spell effect' - that way you can get three possible results: 1. it fails to work, 2. it works... but only for a few days, and 3. it works... forever! The trick being, of course, that it's hard to know if it was result 2. or result 3. your victim got...
Unless something says it allows a save, it doesn't.
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Unless something says it allows a save, it doesn't.
Right... and the Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers bit says that you do get a save, even if it's not written directly in the text (but 'most' happen to be), based on the spell or spell-like effect the item produces.
Put another way, unless it specifically says you don't get a save, then you do.
Unless something says it allows a save, it doesn't.Right... and the Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers bit says that you do get a save, even if it's not written directly in the text (but 'most' happen to be), based on the spell or spell-like effect the item produces.
It does not.
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
It provides formula how to calculate saving throw DC when needed. Not saying that you get saving throw by default.
Put another way, unless it specifically says you don't get a save, then you do.
There is lot of rules where is not specifically said that you don't get a save. If your reasoning was correct one should get save against everything and everytime.
Can you give an example or PRD reference to back this up? It seems lots of experienced people have differing views on this, and the PRD seems to disagree with you on this.
I am sorry, but disagree with what? That you don't make a roll unless a rule specifically states that you make a roll?
Don't get me wrong. I've always played the "no save" way, and personally, I like it. But this is an official rules question, not a question about what one person or another prefers.
1. There is no rule that says that you always get a saving throw against effects of magic item.
2. Some items do not need that rule explicitly stated because they mimic effects of spells (like scrolls or wands) and thus they by default use rules for the spells they replicate.3. The philter of love do not mimic specific spell (its effects are different than charm monster and the description does not states that it works like charm or any other spell).
4. The philter of love description do not contain mention of saving throw.
EDIT: It might be possible that philter of love should allow saving throws but its current description do not support it - it might be deliberate option or simply mistake.
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Bingo! Is there any chance a developer could weigh in on this thread?
Does it really matter that much that you need an official ruling from a developer? The only time that I could see this making a difference is if a BBEG tricked a PC into drinking it. Even then, you're probably in DM fiat territory, so you might as just roll with it and see where it takes you.
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Easy enough. Lets look at it this way.
The Philter of Love is effectively a potion. From the rules on potions:
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn't get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
So, with drinking a potion, you are casting the spell on yourself.
From the PRD on magic:
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
If the target of a spell is yourself (the Target line of the spell description includes “You”), you do not receive a saving throw, and spell resistance does not apply. The saving throw and spell resistance lines are omitted from such spells.
Thus no saving throw for potions, elixirs, or philters unless specified.
And thus the syringe spear + philter of love combo was born... ;P
or just, y'know, Beguiling Gift >.>
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sorry for casting resurrection on the thread, but was doing a search for this EXACT subject to see if PF had changed it
i'm glad they haven't ... it's a great roleplaying fluff magic item, it's a shame that some just look at how the item MIGHT be used to manipulate SOMETHING in their game
if it's the Players, then why are you whining about worrying they may sneak by the BBEG, you are the DM?
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but I am not without mercy so I shall provide the alternate witch-brewed version (with an added ST) from the 1986 October Dragon magazine (#114 i think)
Brew Love Potion
The witch can brew one special form of philter of love per week.
Philter of Love: (Source: Dungeon Masters Guide, 2nd Edition):
This potion causes the individual drinking it to become charmed (see charm spells) with the first creature seen after consuming the draught. The imbiber may actually become enamored if the creature is of similar race and of the opposite sex. Charm effects wear off in 1d4+4 turns, but the enamoring effects last until a dispel magic spell is cast upon the individual.
Exceptions: The victim is affected only by the witch. The victim gains a ((( -4 to save against being charmed))). The effect lasts for 8 + 2d4 turns. The potion has a chance of affecting a victim of the same HD/level or less of the witch who brewed the potion. Only humans/demi-humans/humanoids are affected.
These add a save, a humanoid only, and a level limit ...
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I recall fondly an adventure involving trying to help a girl who had lost her boyfriend to a woman who'd given him a philtre of love (this was in 3.0... and I don't think the item has had a saving throw in any edition). This was a Forgotten Realms campaign and I was playing a cleric of Sune, who of course was convinced that true love would conquer all and somehow the girl would get her love back.
Somehow the events that ensued involved three drunken, angry dwarves (my fellow party members) bashing down the front gate to a dinner party at the mayor's house, the girl being ennobled by a remove fear spell, me flying half naked (well with no armor) carrying the girl through the house and to the party in the back, and my character ending up wrestling mid-air with a cleric of Shar who'd shown up at the party and was certain I was after her, not trying to help resolve a love triangle.
As I hurled the dark priestess into a fountain 80 feet below us (she did not survive), the girl grabbed her love and kissed him.
The GM rolled a few dice, looked up and said, "Well, Sune's with you on this one. True love does conquer after all." (The GM allowed divine intervention to bypass the permanent effects of the item.)
We were fairly certain Sune was in fact rolling on her (dainty and perfect) ass laughing at the whole thing (including the confused and then very dead Sharite), but when you amuse the gods enough, sometimes they answer your prayers.
The girl got her boyfriend back.
And we were permanently kicked out of the city of Loudwater. A small price to pay for a couple's happiness.
That's hilarious.
Strangely, I feel bad for the Sharite. Death by poor communication is my least-favourite story trope. I hated Romeo and Juliette for the same reason.
I think if a named character in my fantasy story is going to die, I damned well want them to be killed by someone :S
Strangely, I feel bad for the Sharite. Death by poor communication is my least-favourite story trope. I hated Romeo and Juliette for the same reason.
I think if a named character in my fantasy story is going to die, I damned well want them to be killed by someone :S
Going OT, so
Flame of Sune was damn well someone, thank you very much. ;)
And the Sharite didn't die by poor communication. She died because she was self important enough to think my character was after her and attacked her. My character made it as clear as possible she had no interest in a fight--she was even trying to ignore her and stay with the girl--and the Sharite's answer was to try to cut my character's throat.
It was only after the part where the Sharite refused to listen and tried to kill my character that my Strength 17 fighter-cleric under the influence of a fly potion (3.0 so the duration was long) grappled and than carried with her 80 feet in the air, and then released her. "My faith will save me!" were the Sharite's last words, I kid you not.
B*##$ died of a hugely bad case of the dumb and little more.
Heh, I suppose its OK if villains die from an acute swelling of the ego :p
I really liked that story by the way. It sounded really cool.
If anybody cares, three years after the previous posts, I thought these kind of potions are best used when the group finds a wounded or dying individual. You administer the healing potion (Philter of Love) or a real healing potion and something to drink sangria (Philter of Love). So then you don't have to worry as much about them lying to you.
... Also, of course, it's for those special prisoners who you feel you can redeem with lots of one on one interaction. So, it's suitable for paladins too.
Some more points: Which save would it be? Reflex, Fortitude, or Will? Nothing in the text supports a save, let alone give you the type.
As to assigning a DC 17, that is for a 5th level effect. While Permanency is 5th level, the wondrous item's effect is not duplicating a spell. Permanency cannot be removed with Break Enchantment or Remove Curse, so it is not the same. Since you cannot use the base spells, you must use the CL of the object. CL 15 -> SL 8 -> DC 22.
/cevah
Another 3 years have passed and it is time to raise the thread once again with more input. A lot of DMs will make the player's that take leadership go out and recruit a cohort on their own. This item is pretty good for that, especially if there is already a good bond in game between the PC and NPC. Evil PCs will also be able to finally use the Vile leadership without having to worry about betrayal haha.