I know this is a bit of a worst-case scenario, but it's entirely within the realm of the possible for a BBEG to pull this off easily.
If my summoner is traveling with his eidolon beside him, and dismissal is cast upon it just before the BBEG attacks, I'll now have to rely upon my SLA summon monsters to help me fight, since it'll take a full minute to bring the eidolon back (aside from summon eidolon).
Monsters brought into being via the spell-like ability, or the casting of the spell, cannot do ANY damage to an enemy warded by protection from evil. Neither can an eidolon brought back via summon eidolon. And the summoner class is mostly devoid of attack spells to hurl at the BBEG.
So, to sum up:
Can any bad guy basically shut down the entire Summoner class by judicious use of just two spells -- dismissal and protection from evil?
If so, how do you stay alive, and actually useful to the party?
Thanks in advance ... hoping I'm missing something, or misinterpreting something ...
by the level enemies are casting dismiss summoners are pretty solid without their eidolon. just use your sla and drop buffs and controlls and you will be fine.
Protection from evil only protects him from evil summoned creatures. Good and neutral aligned creatures can still attack him. If he has both protection from good and protection from evil up, summon elementals. There is no protection from neutral.
I'd also like to see the Aeons, Agathions, Daemons, Proteans, etc. added to the summon monster list. Would be nice to have this in the back of the Bestiary.
On that note, Bestiary 2 has rules for summoned entropic and resolute creatures (like celestial and fiendish for chaos and law). See if your GM allows you to add these templates to the summoned creature.
Protection from Evil doesn't work against a Edilon but it works against your Summoned creatures if the creature is evil. So if the Dismisal works on you Edilon then summon neutral aligned creatures like Elementals. Protection from Good and Evil doesn't work against them.
Protection from evil only protects him from evil summoned creatures. Good and neutral aligned creatures can still attack him. If he has both protection from good and protection from evil up, summon elementals. There is no protection from neutral.
I'd also like to see the Aeons, Agathions, Daemons, Proteans, etc. added to the summon monster list. Would be nice to have this in the back of the Bestiary.
On that note, Bestiary 2 has rules for summoned entropic and axiomatic creatures (like celestial and fiendish for chaos and law). See if your GM allows you to add these templates to the summoned creature.
Holy moly! I totally missed this rather significant change to this spell from ... <ahem> the other system to Pathfinder.
Great catch ... thanks!
So ... as long as I stick with neutral summoned creatures, I still have a chance to chomp on the BBEG?
-- DP
If you're facing someone who's casting Dismissal at you a level 1 character, that would be the LEAST of your problems.
Agreed!
But I was thinking further down the line ...
Protection from Evil doesn't work against a Edilon but it works against your Summoned creatures if the creature is evil. So if the Dismisal works on you Edilon then summon neutral aligned creatures like Elementals. Protection from Good and Evil doesn't work against them.
Thanks very much for pointing this out.
Protection from evil only protects him from evil summoned creatures. Good and neutral aligned creatures can still attack him. If he has both protection from good and protection from evil up, summon elementals. There is no protection from neutral.
I'd also like to see the Aeons, Agathions, Daemons, Proteans, etc. added to the summon monster list. Would be nice to have this in the back of the Bestiary.
On that note, Bestiary 2 has rules for summoned entropic and axiomatic creatures (like celestial and fiendish for chaos and law). See if your GM allows you to add these templates to the summoned creature.
Holy moly! I totally missed this rather significant change to this spell from ... <ahem> the other system to Pathfinder.
Great catch ... thanks!
So ... as long as I stick with neutral summoned creatures, I still have a chance to chomp on the BBEG?
-- DP
I'd go with Resolute and Entropic creatures, just to mess with the GM. Can you imagine the look on his face when you mention that the Resolute Tyrannosaurus you just summoned is going to Smite Chaos on the BBEG (assuming he is a BBCEG).
problem is you cannot use resolute and entellus creatures by raw with summon. which is an easy fix but will hardly be a surprise since you'd have to clear it by the dm
The DM was already concerned about my protection from evil/dismissal shutdown combo. I suspect he may allow the addition of these templates to give the Summoner a little added oomph.
problem is you cannot use resolute and entellus creatures by raw with summon. which is an easy fix but will hardly be a surprise since you'd have to clear it by the dm
Actually, Bestiary 2 says:
Creatures with the resolute template live in planes where law is paramount. They can be summoned using spells such as summon monster and planar ally.
I know this is a bit of a worst-case scenario, but it's entirely within the realm of the possible for a BBEG to pull this off easily.
If my summoner is traveling with his eidolon beside him, and dismissal is cast upon it just before the BBEG attacks, I'll now have to rely upon my SLA summon monsters to help me fight, since it'll take a full minute to bring the eidolon back (aside from summon eidolon).
Monsters brought into being via the spell-like ability, or the casting of the spell, cannot do ANY damage to an enemy warded by protection from evil. Neither can an eidolon brought back via summon eidolon. And the summoner class is mostly devoid of attack spells to hurl at the BBEG.
So, to sum up:
Can any bad guy basically shut down the entire Summoner class by judicious use of just two spells -- dismissal and protection from evil?If so, how do you stay alive, and actually useful to the party?
Thanks in advance ... hoping I'm missing something, or misinterpreting something ...
Per the class description edilions can attack those protected with protection from evil. Their link to the summoner makes them an exception to this rule.
I'm not sure what it says about Dismissal, but regardless the edilion gets a save. If it fails the save you still have the min/level summon monster available. Even without the edilion the largest earth elemental you have available is going to be a nasty option. If the enemey successfully dismisses that one then you can summon another up to your daily alotment. How many dismissals did the enemy prepare today?
Summary: The Ediolion is your main line fighter, but you should have a back up plan also.
I know this is a bit of a worst-case scenario, but it's entirely within the realm of the possible for a BBEG to pull this off easily.
If my summoner is traveling with his eidolon beside him, and dismissal is cast upon it just before the BBEG attacks,
There are many defenses you have to this.
One would be the 2nd level spell summon eidolon for example. Another would be investing 4k gold on a ring.
-James
What ring would that be? Counterspells?
If you're facing someone who's casting Dismissal at you a level 1 character, that would be the LEAST of your problems.Agreed!
But I was thinking further down the line ...Worry about down the line when you get there. It's about trying something different after all, not making a career change.
Another thing to remember is that centering your role about the Eidolon, while valid is not the only way to play a Summoner. You've got spells, you've got your SLA summons, What I call the YuGuioh model is mainly centered around using those SLA's with the Eidolon a reserve trump strategy employed with the Summon Eidolon spell. While he doesn't have the versatility of the Wizard in that department the Summoner does have some viable battlefield control options as well.
I actually am not in the camp of "make it all about the eidolon". I fully intend for the Summoner himself to be as helpful as possible to other people via the selection of buffs he has. And I will be using the SLAs quite a bit; Augment Summoning is a feat I intend to take early on.