| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I was reading a grapple clarification Web site when I found the following passage:
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.You can give the target of your grapple, the Secondary Grappler, the pinned condition, while you remain grappled. Awesome. Remember though, pinned does not stack with grapple. To keep the target pinned, you must choose the pin grapple action each round that you maintain a grapple, or you can tie them up!
Is the Web author correct in this? Can't it just as easily be interpreted that the guy stays pinned until I let him go or he escapes. In the meantime, I'm free to take other actions (such as the damage grapple action) while he is pinned.
What’s this? So you can tie up a Secondary Grappler straight from a grapple, without pinning first? Yes, but: you don’t get to do it automatically when you maintain the grapple. You (the Primary Grappler) must maintain the grapple, and then you must succeed on another CMB check at a -10 penalty. It’s still all one standard action, but it requires two checks.
Again, is he right in regards to the TIE UP rules? I don't think he is. There's no evidence supporting his claim.
If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.
I just noticed this. Does the bolded section of the rules above mean that, if you choose to escape, you can't do anything else for the round? If that's the case, my friends and I have been doing it all wrong (like trying to escape, and then pulling out a weapon for the following round once we failed).
Note: Not all modifiers that you may have to a grapple check will apply to a Break attempt. For example, a creature’s grab ability imparts a +4 bonus on grapple checks made to start or maintain a grapple, but not all grapple checks. Improved Grapple, however, provides a bonus to all grapple checks, including those made to break a grapple.
The way monster stat blocks write "CMB +# (+# when grappling)" makes me think otherwise Dorkistan. The bonus applies on all grapple checks. Am I wrong?
(Dorkistan uses an example in which a scorpian grapples two targets simultaneously)
Unfortunately for the scorpion, when the next round rolls around and it’s time to maintain some grapplage, it has to end one of those grapples. Remember, maintaining a grapple is a standard action, and since the scorpion is grappling two targets, but has only one standard action, one of those grapplers is going free.
Regardless of how many people you are grappling, you are only ever in one grapple. I don't see why a single action to maintain can't hold both targets. Has a developer clarified otherwise?
...the scorpion can maintain a grapple, dealing automatic claw damage [per the grab ability], then choose the damage grapple action to deal damage again (maybe stinger this time!).
Really!? We've only ever applied damage once in our games. If he's right, creatures with constrict are x3 as deadly as a similar creature simply making attacks!
i had a player grapple a large white dragon once... the dragon had no chance... i just ruled it died...
Say what?
Doesn't the dragon have a massive amount of bonusses? Besides, isn't there a rule that says you can only grapple opponents your size or smaller?/quirk
Besides, isn't there a rule that says you can only grapple opponents your size or smaller?
/quirk
Nope. That limit is for tripping.
Is the Web author correct in this? Can't it just as easily be interpreted that the guy stays pinned until I let him go or he escapes. In the meantime, I'm free to take other actions (such as the damage grapple action) while he is pinned.
You must make a grapple check to keep someone pinned. It is nothing more than a more severe form of bring grappled. That is why the bonus from the improved grapple feats apply to them trying to escape.
Again, is he right in regards to the TIE UP rules? I don't think he is. There's no evidence supporting his claim.
I think he is incorrect on the 2 checks rule. There is nothing to even suggest this in the rules.
I just noticed this. Does the bolded section of the rules above mean that, if you choose to escape, you can't do anything else for the round? If that's the case, my friends and I have been doing it all wrong (like trying to escape, and then pulling out a weapon for the following round once we failed).
No it does not mean you lose your other actions. Note that it only takes a standard action to attempt to escape. The rules say nothing about you losing your other actions.
The way monster stat blocks write "CMB +# (+# when grappling)" makes me think otherwise Dorkistan. The bonus applies on all grapple checks. Am I wrong?
He is incorrect. Remember that the CMD is equal to the CMB+10+dex+other modifiers. The bonus from the grab ability is a part of the grapple CMB.
Regardless of how many people you are grappling, you are only ever in one grapple. I don't see why a single action to maintain can't hold both targets. Has a developer clarified otherwise?
I wish this were possible, but a grapple is still an attack, and attacks normally require you to choose targets so unless a rules change or errata comes into affect you have to choose. I would also think that grappling two creatures would be harder than grappling one, and so some type of penalty should come into play if such a rule is made. I can see some 10-armed monstrosity TPK'ing a party.
Dorkistan wrote:...the scorpion can maintain a grapple, dealing automatic claw damage [per the grab ability], then choose the damage grapple action to deal damage again (maybe stinger this time!).
Really!? We've only ever applied damage once in our games. If he's right, creatures with constrict are x3 as deadly as a similar creature simply making attacks!
That is incorrect. It takes a standard action to maintain the hold. That hold should do claw damage, and the constrict damage on top of it.
The proof is in the quotes from the PRD below.Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Constrict (Ex) A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, when it makes a successful grapple check (in addition to any other effects caused by a successful check, including additional damage). The amount of damage is given in the creature's entry and is typically equal to the amount of damage caused by the creature's melee attack.
i had a player grapple a large white dragon once... the dragon had no chance... i just ruled it died...
yeah, the grapple rules have been streamlined but are still stoopid....how it stops the dragon have a tail attack for example is beyond me....need to change the bit that says "with one hand"
im sure this has been much discussed
we have a monk in two of our parties and nothing grinds the game more than a grapple
has anyone grappled a behir yet?
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I think he is incorrect on the 2 checks rule. There is nothing to even suggest this in the rules.
The suggestion comes from tie up being the only grapple action that requires a grapple check. If you attempt to tie up a target that you are only grappling, it requires another CMB check with a -10 penalty after you have maintained the grapple.
He is incorrect. Remember that the CMD is equal to the CMB+10+dex+other modifiers. The bonus from the grab ability is a part of the grapple CMB.
Except the grab ability specifies what it applies to, and break/reverse isn't on that list. Should it be? Yes, the article suggests that's the way to run it, since that is easier, but a stickler for the rules would be right to deny a creature its +4 grab bonus when attempting to break a grapple.
That is incorrect. It takes a standard action to maintain the hold. That hold should do claw damage, and the constrict damage on top of it. The proof is in the quotes from the PRD below.
I suggest anyone questioning the accuracy of this section of the article re-read that section of the article as well as the relevant grab, constrict, and grapple entries.
The scorpion does not get extra damage from grab because (presumably) it uses constrict. If (for whatever reason) the scorpion chose not to use constrict, it could do grab damage. Either of those can be combined with damage from a natural attack (as per the damage grapple action).
Thanks Concerro.
Found this:
Constriction damage does indeed kick in as soon as the CMB check to grab the target is successful.
I think he is incorrect on the 2 checks rule. There is nothing to even suggest this in the rules.The suggestion comes from tie up being the only grapple action that requires a grapple check. If you attempt to tie up a target that you are only grappling, it requires another CMB check with a -10 penalty after you have maintained the grapple.
He is incorrect. Remember that the CMD is equal to the CMB+10+dex+other modifiers. The bonus from the grab ability is a part of the grapple CMB.Except the grab ability specifies what it applies to, and break/reverse isn't on that list. Should it be? Yes, the article suggests that's the way to run it, since that is easier, but a stickler for the rules would be right to deny a creature its +4 grab bonus when attempting to break a grapple.
That is incorrect. It takes a standard action to maintain the hold. That hold should do claw damage, and the constrict damage on top of it. The proof is in the quotes from the PRD below.I suggest anyone questioning the accuracy of this section of the article re-read that section of the article as well as the relevant grab, constrict, and grapple entries.
The scorpion does not get extra damage from grab because (presumably) it uses constrict. If (for whatever reason) the scorpion chose not to use constrict, it could do grab damage. Either of those can be combined with damage from a natural attack (as per the damage grapple action).
I looked for the verbage so I will need a quote.
You are incorrect about the constrict damage. I quoted it above.
Constrict says it happens in conjunction with normal damage.
When you make a successful grapple check you can choose to do normal damage.
Grab damage is natural attack damage.
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Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).
I'm not one for debating, so I resign the issue if you still disagree.
Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. Unless otherwise noted, grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on its CMB check to make and maintain the grapple, but does not gain the grappled condition itself. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).I'm not one for debating, so I resign the issue if you still disagree.
James said the constrict damage happens on the check so I am assuming a creature can choose to not constrict, but otherwise the damages stack which makes sense with the words "as well" which normally mean "in addition to".
I think this site needs a rules of the game article which they are supposed to start something similar soon.
I think this site needs a rules of the game article which they are supposed to start something similar soon.
Agreed.
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Dorkistan wrote:
Pin rules wrote:
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Conditions). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.You can give the target of your grapple, the Secondary Grappler, the pinned condition, while you remain grappled. Awesome. Remember though, pinned does not stack with grapple. To keep the target pinned, you must choose the pin grapple action each round that you maintain a grapple, or you can tie them up!
Is the Web author correct in this? Can't it just as easily be interpreted that the guy stays pinned until I let him go or he escapes. In the meantime, I'm free to take other actions (such as the damage grapple action) while he is pinned.
The pinned and grappled conditions do not stack in the sense that the penalties and conditions inflicted by pinned are a more severe version of the grappled conditions. The tie up option in the grappling rules tends to suggest that once pinned the other guy needs to escape / break the grapple to relieve that condition (otherwise you could never use the pin + tie up combo by yourself, since you'd have to use your successful grapple check that round to maintain the pin... and therefore not to tie up...). Basically, if you take the extra round to inflict the pinned condition you're trading a round's worth of inflicting damage for putting the other guy in a continuing, long term, worse situation (after which, yes, you can move, damage, tie up, and generally harass his sorry pinned self during the following rounds).
Dorkistan wrote:
What’s this? So you can tie up a Secondary Grappler straight from a grapple, without pinning first? Yes, but: you don’t get to do it automatically when you maintain the grapple. You (the Primary Grappler) must maintain the grapple, and then you must succeed on another CMB check at a -10 penalty. It’s still all one standard action, but it requires two checks.Again, is he right in regards to the TIE UP rules? I don't think he is. There's no evidence supporting his claim.
Using the tie up option with a guy who's grappled, but not pinned, takes a CMB roll (seperate from the one you'll just have made to maintain the grapple), yes. It's a rubbish option - pin him first, if possible.
RULES wrote:
If You Are Grappled: If you are grappled, you can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making a combat maneuver check (DC equal to your opponent's CMD; this does not provoke an attack of opportunity) or Escape Artist check (with a DC equal to your opponent's CMD). If you succeed, you break the grapple and can act normally. Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that requires only one hand to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you. See the grappled condition for additional details. If you are pinned, your actions are very limited. See the pinned condition in Conditions for additional details.I just noticed this. Does the bolded section of the rules above mean that, if you choose to escape, you can't do anything else for the round? If that's the case, my friends and I have been doing it all wrong (like trying to escape, and then pulling out a weapon for the following round once we failed).
An escape attempt is, win or lose, a standard action. What you do with your move action is (within the limits of the grappled or pinned condition you may be under at the time) up to you. Drawing a light weapon is usually a good option... you did remember to buy a dagger, right... right? ;)
Dorkistan wrote:
Note: Not all modifiers that you may have to a grapple check will apply to a Break attempt. For example, a creature’s grab ability imparts a +4 bonus on grapple checks made to start or maintain a grapple, but not all grapple checks. Improved Grapple, however, provides a bonus to all grapple checks, including those made to break a grapple.The way monster stat blocks write "CMB +# (+# when grappling)" makes me think otherwise Dorkistan. The bonus applies on all grapple checks. Am I wrong?
Grab gives a +4 bonus to start and maintain a grapple only.
Dorkistan wrote:
(Dorkistan uses an example in which a scorpian grapples two targets simultaneously)Unfortunately for the scorpion, when the next round rolls around and it’s time to maintain some grapplage, it has to end one of those grapples. Remember, maintaining a grapple is a standard action, and since the scorpion is grappling two targets, but has only one standard action, one of those grapplers is going free.
Regardless of how many people you are grappling, you are only ever in one grapple. I don't see why a single action to maintain can't hold both targets. Has a developer clarified otherwise?
If the scorpion used the only grapple with that one attacking body part, but at -20 option for its grabs then each one only 'locks up' the activity of that specific body part / attack / limb. If it didn't use that option, then it didn't grab two guys at the same time in the first place.
Dorkistan wrote:
...the scorpion can maintain a grapple, dealing automatic claw damage [per the grab ability], then choose the damage grapple action to deal damage again (maybe stinger this time!).Really!? We've only ever applied damage once in our games. If he's right, creatures with constrict are x3 as deadly as a similar creature simply making attacks!
No. If its using the this claw only but at -20 option, then it does the claw's damage when maintaining the grapple (plus Constrict, if it had it) because that's the only option it has for a limited one-limb grapple. If it was doing a normal grapple then it'd be able to damage the grappled character with one (only) natural attack, as per the normal grapple rules.
I stand corrected the last sentence of the grab ability basically rules that it does not apply to CMD. Somehow I missed that.