Wizards and their Apprentices


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


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At what point in his/her career would a wizard consider taking on an apprentice? How does the relationship look different when it is one wizard with one apprentice than one instructor in one of the arcane schools (i.e. Arcanamirium)? It's a trope of the genre, and am curious to hear thoughts on how others think about the relationship in their games or general musings on Golarion.


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Jason Lillis wrote:
At what point in his/her career would a wizard consider taking on an apprentice? How does the relationship look different when it is one wizard with one apprentice than one instructor in one of the arcane schools (i.e. Arcanamirium)? It's a trope of the genre, and am curious to hear thoughts on how others think about the relationship in their games or general musings on Golarion.

This is an interesting topic. To answer your questions:

In game terms, I'd say 7th level is when a wizard who is interested in an apprentice will start taking one. 7th is the minimum level needed for the Leadership feat, and while I don't think that Leadership is necessary for an apprentice, I do think that 7th is a perfectly workable benchmark. 7th level wizards have a nice bit of power, and a decent bit of renown. Wizards with less of either won't be as attractive to potential apprentices. There's certainly nothing to prevent a less powerful wizard from taking on an apprentice, but on average I think that it starts at 7th level.

As for the one-on-one relationship, I'd say that it depends on the wizard. A wizard who is being well-paid to train an individual student will be much nicer (comparatively speaking) than one who sees the apprentice as a glorified lackey. Either way, the apprentice is likely to have strong feelings about the master before long, whether positive or negative.

The relationships are different when a school is involved. Instructors will have their favourite students (and vice versa) but there usually won't be the closeness that is the hallmark of the one-on-one relationship. Instead, that closeness will be transferred to the school as a whole. Institutionally trained wizards may be inclined to view other wizards from the trained school favourably (or as special rivals, depending on the wizard), and they may have negative reactions to wizards from a rival school.

I don't think that any of this would be different on Golarion.

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Evan Tarlton wrote:


In game terms, I'd say 7th level is when a wizard who is interested in an apprentice will start taking one. 7th is the minimum level needed for the Leadership feat, and while I don't think that Leadership is necessary for an apprentice, I do think that 7th is a perfectly workable benchmark. 7th level wizards have a nice bit of power, and a decent bit of renown. Wizards with less of either won't be as attractive to potential apprentices. There's certainly nothing to prevent a less powerful wizard from taking on an apprentice, but on average I think that it starts at 7th level.

+1

I would say your cohort doesn't need to be your apprentice though. Because at 7th level with a leadership score of 7, your apprentice would be at 5th level, far beyond a novice apprentice. At 7th level you could easily have a leadership score of 10 (+1 Cha, +2 for having a base of operations = wizard tower) and gaining 5 1st level followers. They could be your apprentice(s).

Alternately, you could take on an apprentice that would not follow the cohort/follower rules. He should be played by the GM since he is independent of you and may not follow your wishes.


Jason Lillis wrote:
At what point in his/her career would a wizard consider taking on an apprentice?

In my world ... any time.

A 1st level wizard working as an "urban mage" casting spells for hire or scribing scrolls or whatever might desire an apprentice simply to help with the drudge-work around the house. In return, the wizard pays the apprentice's upkeep, let's the apprentice help out around the lab and occasionally shows the apprentice a genuine "magic trick" or two (something less than a cantrip, yet still distinctly "magic").

Mechanically, I allow characters (meaning PCs, basically) to train "apprentices" to within three levels of their own, thus a 4th level PC wizard can train an apprentice/cohort up to 1st level. In reverse, the PC's own starting "Mentor" will have been 4th level or higher (generally 4th-6th).

In this way, if a PC seeks training from a more powerful wizard, they must generally seek out a "master" who is 4+ levels above them in order to benefit from the training and potentially advance under tutelage (rather than adventuring).

I can easily see situations in which a 20th level archmage has a 15th level "apprentice", who in tern has a 10th level "apprentice" who has a couple of 5th level "apprentices" who each have a 2nd level "apprentice" who are each responsible for overseeing the management and training of 3-5 "genuine-apprentices" who do the work about the home of the afore-mentioned archmage.

Note that NPCs are always allowed to break the rules/mechanics for PCs if it fills the functions of the culture/story/mood/tone/plot, so 1st-3rd level wizards can always take and train apprentices though PCs can't. This is also functionally necessary since most characters in my world max at 3rd level and the presence of a steady stream of 1st level wizards from 2nd-3rd level "masters" needs to occur simply to self-perpetuate the class.

FWIW,

Rez


Here's my take, which hearkens back to OD&D/1E.

Apprentice: 1st-4th levels. You learn to manipulate magic here, including cantrips and basic spells that will serve you all of your life (detect magic, read magic, sleep, charm person, detect thoughts, etc.).

Journeyman: 5th-8th levels. You know enough to (generally) not blow up the lab and now understand a bit more about how magic really works, including how to disable it (dispel magic), create explosions (fireball), know when you're being watched (detect scrying), manipulate negative energy (enervation), and so on. You can be trusted to watch over the apprentices, but not to use your mentor's staff of power.

Master: 9th-16th. A big range here. You begin with the ability to translocate yourself anywhere, within reason (teleport), improve your ability to disable magic (greater dispel magic), have your whims met by reality in a small way (limited wish), even begin plane travel (ethereal jaunt, shadow walk). You certainly can train apprentices on your own; you likely know a bit of metamagic and/or can create magic items (note in 1E, 9th was a key level for learning to make simple magic items). You've probably already made a few by now.

Archmage: 17+. You know some of the greatest secrets of magic. You can remove your enemies from mortal realms forever (imprisonment), blast creatures to bits (meteor swarm), call upon the mightiest of angels and demons to serve you (gate), and now bend reality even more to your desires (wish). You likely have crafted spells and magic items alike and are highly sought after for advice by other magi of all levels.

These aren't hard and fast. I've divided Master into a 9-12 range and added another rank for 13-16 before, as well as tinkered with the idea of an epic-level position (Grand Archmage or somesuch). I find that when you put it this way, it makes a bit more sense as to when you could train apprentices. A Journeyman knows enough about magic to deal with it at a fundamental level, so he'd be acceptable as a teacher.

In the 3.5 DMG 2, the mentor feat required the mentor to be 6th level, IIRC, so this meshes well with that. You need to bump up the limits by 1 if you're dealing with a sorcerer, btw; it's based on what level spells a rank can cast.


Jimmy, do you like movies about gladiators?

Sorry, first dirty thing that sprang to mind. Hmmm... To my mind, it would depend on where the story's headed. To me, it seems an older, high level wizard will have the wisdom to make for a good mentor, whereas a younger mentor is a perfect setup for an apprentice gone bad (Obi-Wan/Anakin).

But that's me speaking from the GM's side.

No sure any of my players would care for an apprentice, so it's hard to come up with a good answer.


According to the Faction Guide:
Arcanamirium ranks
1st-2nd level: Apprentice
3rd level: Journeyman
4th-5th level: Maven (akin to a grad student, can become a teacher's assistant)
6th+ level: Arcanscenti (not explicitly a full mage, but on par with visiting professors)


In the 2E Complete Necromancer Guide a wizard gains apprentice(s) at level 9. (Which is close to name level for 2E)

The 3.5 DMG2 had rules for apprentices inculding the mentor and apprentice feats.

Grand Lodge

Thanael wrote:

In the 2E Complete Necromancer Guide a wizard gains an apprentice at level 9. (Which is close to name level for 2E)

The 3.5 DMG2 had rules for apprentices inculding the mentor and apprentice feats.

Which I thought was an excellent example of putting in rules where none were needed.


Well you can always use them as guidelines without actually using the feats.

Shadow Lodge

Lathiira wrote:

Here's my take, which hearkens back to OD&D/1E.

Apprentice: 1st-4th levels.

Journeyman: 5th-8th levels.

Master: 9th-16th.

Archmage: 17+.

These aren't hard and fast. I've divided Master into a 9-12 range and added another rank for 13-16 before, as well as tinkered with the idea of an epic-level position (Grand Archmage or somesuch). I find that when you put it this way, it makes a bit more sense as to when you could train apprentices. A Journeyman knows enough about magic to deal with it at a fundamental level, so he'd be acceptable as a teacher.
...

I might break it up a little bit more. Often in guild-style environments (which your breakdown resembles), you'll see Senior Apprentices and other sub-divisions within the broader terms. Perhaps to cross this one with Rezdave and Evan's ideas, you could use this (spoilered for length):

jlighter's Arcane Guild Education:
Initiate: 1st-2nd levels. Introductory to magic, lets you grasp the basics, but not a full Apprentice yet, given that that requires more study. More open to public to test aptitude for progression, or just to dabble and learn some basics. Equivalent Education: 6th-8th grade.

Apprentice: 3rd-4th levels. Formal students who have chosen to dedicate more time to the pursuit of magic instead of merely dabbling. Apprentices know more advanced tricks than mere Initiates, but not the more advanced techniques. Able to do some low-level crafting. Equivalent Education: 9th-11th grade.

Senior Apprentice: 5th-6th levels. Senior Apprentices can often be seen teaching groups of younger students, overseeing Initiates and teaching the basics while continuing their own studies. This level could be sufficient to teach Initiates, and among settlements with much lower magic levels this could the be senior teacher at a school. These students could begin to do more advanced crafting, such as basic magical weapons and armor and crafting wands. Equivalent Education: 12th grade to junior college (13th grade).

Journeyman: 7th-8th levels. These are the bulk of your magic users. They'll be able to handle most of the common things, and they'll teach the majority of classes for Initiates and Apprentices. If you plan on establishing a new school somewhere in a rural area, this is probably who you would want to get things started. These students could begin forging rings, and perhaps a test to achieve Journeyman's statu could be the forging of a basic ring. Equivalent Education: University (14th-16th), Bachelor's degree.

Senior Journeyman: 9th-10th levels. In most schools, you'll have professors of this level. They're able to handle most problems created by the low-level magic users, being able to dispel curses and enchantments/hexes placed on accident or in jest and to inflict more solid education on the students. These would also be assistants to the Masters (what student wouldn't be impressed after being a dog for a time?). The could also be the means of communication with outlying schools or settlements, and these casters could begin rod-crafting. Equivalent Education: Beginning Graduate student (17th-18th grade), or multiple Bachelor's degrees.

Master: 11th-16th levels. These are your upper level teachers and most dedicated students. Classes by Masters would be taught to the Journeymen, and these teachers would likely rarely be seen by Initiates and Apprentices. These are the people who can dismiss the more powerful enchantments and who know enough to do real harm to people. The dean of a magical college may be of this the upper range of this level, but a school is unlikely to have many Masters above 12th level unless it is truly huge in scope. Masters can begin to shape reality to their will, can begin crafting the most powerful magical items, and have hopefully learned enough not to abuse their power. Equivalent Education: Graduate student, early PhD studies (19th-24th grade).

Archmage: 17th level and above. These are the people who have truly mastered what it means to be Wizards. Able to bend reality to their will to great degrees, Archmages wouldn't teach lower-level students. They likely wouldn't even teach Journeymen, although may teach and educate upper-division Masters. These are the people who shape the fates of nations and alter the world in very lasting ways. Equivalent Education: PhD, multiple PhD, Nobel Prize Winner, etc.

The education system I'm equating to is the American one. It's a rough approximation, especially given the transposition into a more medieval era. For the most part, it's broken up by spell-level. There's a broader range for Master and Archmage because those levels of magic-user are more varied, and fewer people would make it that far so it can be broader to encompass more people.

It is just an idea. Still, it seems detailed enough to cover most scenarios. Depending on the size of the settlement and the Arcane Guild/Academy/University, titles might change, but the skill levels would be approximately the same in terms of responsibilities and power levels. Personally, I'd let a Wizard begin to train an apprentice at around 5th level if they asked. If I was playing a Wizard, that's probably about when I'd first ask to begin training one. Sorcerers could also study at the school, although the level requirements would go up. One extra level of Initiate.


In 3.5 the archmage prestige class was available at level 13.

Shadow Lodge

Just after level 13, but point. Still, if you think about it, NPCs and "regular" people never make it that far. The title of Archmage is akin to a Pope, War Master, or Master Thief. Not necessarily the class, mind, which is a pursuit of superior knowledge of Magic, but the title of Archmage. Would you prefer that title be changed to something else? We could always call it Mage-Lord, High Wizard(-ess), or perhaps Paragon of (Specialty)? Point being it covers the most learned and/or powerful of Wizards.

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