So does anyone else think it is strange that the servent of a powerful being would have to prepare in advance spells?
Does the god just load him up with godly power in the morning?
Why would the god whose servent is furthering its goals not be granted a spell it needs because they did not prepare it in advance?
Why would a god not prevent a character from using its magic for a purpose contradictory to the god's ethos?
Long story short I let clerics cast whatever spell they want to or need. They must rest and pray but they can cast whatever they need.
If they need a more powerful spell they can call for aid but the penalties for this often means it is a last ditch effort.
I find your argument intresting, I know MY DM would NEVER go for it but all in all it is an intresting take on the divine classes. \
Do you allow all divine classes IE druid and ranger or pally's the same le way?
How do you handle the fact that a cleric is ALWAYS prepared for just the right situation.
For example you guys have been fighting some undead or even just regular ol human bandits and so far so good but then you drop a nasty surprise on the party in the form of Demon X.
Well the wizard is hosed because he loaded up on fire and electric for the day, the fighter can still do his job of being a HP sponge and the theif can do whatever theives do but the cleric doesn't even bat an eyelash, he whips out the Book Of uberness and thumbs through the list and when it's his turn he slays said creature rather handily.
Mind you the above example was grossley simplistic but it was to make a point.
Paraphraseing from the 1st ed players handbook "a cleric demonstartes his wisdom by knowing what spells to prepare for the day to further the aims of his church"
I am playing a cleric of Wee jass in our next game when we start the Shackled City and the sheer number of spells available to me is mind bogleing if I could cast as needed I would be unstoppable.
I see the OPs reasoning but disagree whole-heartedly. It would simply be too much. The downfall of spontaneous casters is their limited spell selection.
If you would give a caster full-access to their spell list AND spontaneity it is just asking for trouble. You'll have all the other casters wanting the same thing and it'll get way out of hand.
By all means if you wanna give it a try as a DM then go for it. Just be ready for the headache that will certainly follow shortly thereafter.
Although the OPs topic of a deity not allowing their clerics cast certain spells is somewhat already covered with the alignment oriented spells. Oh and I ran a cleric of Pelor in AoW and I was forbidden the use of negative energy spells. I didn't mind at all it fit the flavor of the deity. If you wanna houserule deities who don't allow certain spells then I think that is a decent idea.
I have actually had no problem with it working for the past 5 years. :)
Clerical spells are rarely earthshattering. They offer buffs and defense for the most part if you stick to core rules.
I tend to limit spells based on diety and alignment. I have stoped a player from healing a half-orc because he was a dwarf that worshiped a dwarven god.
I have made players make knowledge religon checks and diplomacy checks to cast spells that there god may not approve of.
Divine magic just never worked for me as a prepared approach. Clerics have no power themselves. They act as a conduit for divine power. Wizards tap power and control power. Clerics do not they are but a vessel. Higher level means the Gods can pump more power through you and not kill / drive insane/ blow you up.
I have actually used it for years in 2nd ed but stoped for awhile in 3.XX and have just put it back in.
I give all divine casters the ability to cast at will from the spell list.
So does anyone else think it is strange that the servent of a powerful being would have to prepare in advance spells?
No, you're not the only one who thinks it's strange. But it comes with the D&D experience, just like invisility's obviously gamist no-attacking proviso, atheists generally not being allowed to heal, and vancian magic as a whole.
A lot of D&D magic doesn't make sense, even considering that it's magic, but most gamers just go with it for the sake of balance. (As much as 3.x can be balanced.)
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I have actually used it for years in 2nd ed but stoped for awhile in 3.XX and have just put it back in.
In Dragonlance fiction, that was the assumption, it seemed, as the cleric of Takhisis would decide what spell he needed at the time of casting, and request it on the spot. (and the nice clerics always seemed to have whatever spell they prayed for, right on the spot, as well)
I remember thinking that this made a lot more sense for someone channeling the power of a god, and not 'memorizing' spells in the morning, since Clerics (and Druids) were not Intelligence-based book-carrying spellcasters, who could more logically be seem as poring over tomes and 'memorizing' spells every morning.
But with the spell selection in 3rd edition, Clerics and Druids now having nine levels of spells, and Domains that give them access to an assortment of Wizard spells, etc. I'm not as comfortable with a free-for-all.
My solution for 3.X was to allow *all* spellcasters to choose at 1st level whether they were going to be prepared spellcasters or spontaneous spellcasters.
Those that chose prepared, kept a spellbook, and gained 2 spells per level, just like a Wizard. (And could add/scribe others found or purchased, like a wizard). They might call their book a hymnal, songbook, prayerbook, ogham record, etc, etc. but it was a collection of rituals and incantations just the same as any wizard's spellbook.
Those that chose spontaneous gained a limited number of Spells Known like a Sorcerer, from their class list, and could cast them flexibly, like a Sorcerer, and gained some extra castings a day, like a Sorcerer. (Although they might gain access to cure wounds / inflict wounds or summon nature's ally as 'bonus spells known,' for clerics and druids.)
Clerics and Druids (and Paladins and Rangers) no longer had access to every spell on their list. They had to pick a small fixed list from which they could cast spontaneously, or have theoretical access to their entire list, but acquire and purchase and record the spells just like a Wizard.
Since a Wizard could choose to be a spontaneous caster, and retain his casting progression (2nd level spells at 3rd 'Wizard' level, etc.) and his bonus feats, the Sorcerer class became redundant, and was ditched. This made the spontaneous Wizard a superior choice to the 3.O/3.5 Sorcerer, but I was fine with that, since I felt that the Sorcerer class had been crippled right out of the gate, by a design team that seemed overly-worried about the uncertain potential of non-Vancian spontaneous casting, and beat it silly before allowing it to see print.
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So does anyone else think it is strange that the servent of a powerful being would have to prepare in advance spells?
Does the god just load him up with godly power in the morning?
Why would the god whose servent is furthering its goals not be granted a spell it needs because they did not prepare it in advance?
Why would a god not prevent a character from using its magic for a purpose contradictory to the god's ethos?
Long story short I let clerics cast whatever spell they want to or need. They must rest and pray but they can cast whatever they need.
If they need a more powerful spell they can call for aid but the penalties for this often means it is a last ditch effort.
Why would the God of Healing allow his servant to Inflict Wounds?
One of these days I'll finish my Cleric/Druid spellcasting revamp.
So does anyone else think it is strange that the servent of a powerful being would have to prepare in advance spells?
Does the god just load him up with godly power in the morning?
Why would the god whose servent is furthering its goals not be granted a spell it needs because they did not prepare it in advance?
Why would a god not prevent a character from using its magic for a purpose contradictory to the god's ethos?
Long story short I let clerics cast whatever spell they want to or need. They must rest and pray but they can cast whatever they need.
If they need a more powerful spell they can call for aid but the penalties for this often means it is a last ditch effort.
Why would the God of Healing allow his servant to Inflict Wounds?
One of these days I'll finish my Cleric/Druid spellcasting revamp.
Thats easy, who knows more about how to take someone apart than a healer dedicated to putting the body back together. Just because your supposed to be a healer doesn't mean you can't defend yourself with magic.
If a evil presit of a God of Undeath and necromancy doesn't deny his followers the ability to memorise and use cure spells why would Sir Cuddlebug the healer be unable to defend himself useing his magic?
So does anyone else think it is strange that the servent of a powerful being would have to prepare in advance spells?
Not really. Your average deity will have thousands of followers, who would be constantly begging him/her for spells if you remove the preparation. See this Order of the Stick strip for the reason why that would be a bad idea :)
I consider it this way: By praying to her deity for the required hour, the cleric opens herself up to the divine energy and can thus prepare common spells (ie, those of the appropriate level on the cleric spell list).
If at some point the cleric finds herself in dire straits, needing more powerful magic, she would have to directly request divine intervention through either a miracle or a ritual of some sort. This would then be in direct contact with the deity.
My solution for 3.X was to allow *all* spellcasters to choose at 1st level whether they were going to be prepared spellcasters or spontaneous spellcasters.Those that chose prepared, kept a spellbook, and gained 2 spells per level, just like a Wizard. (And could add/scribe others found or purchased, like a wizard). They might call their book a hymnal, songbook, prayerbook, ogham record, etc, etc. but it was a collection of rituals and incantations just the same as any wizard's spellbook.
This idea is made of awesome. :)
It's worth mentioning that WotC too has an official variant for those who don't like divine prepping. Link.
Casters are trained as empty buckets that they only have the strength to fill once a day (8 hours of rest).
Arcane gets their bucket filled by either concentrated study (mages) or it recharges automatically when the character sleep (spontaneous casters).
Clerical casters(druid/oracle/ranger) have their bucket fille by a diety at specific times. Usually morning, but it's relative to the diety.
If I were a diety, I wouldn't want have to concentrate on all of my followers ALL THE TIME. "Here are your spells go and use them in my name. Off you go. Shoo Shoo" Then I (the deity) can concentrate my efforts on other matters, like the constant war for souls.
Just a quick point here.
Most deities have like a ton of avatars so what if a dozen or so are just there to look after the faithful and grant spells the other ones are battleing their direct oposite somewhere or ruleing in their divine realm.
I think the divine caster should be a mem'ed caster because if not thye just become a little too powerfull.
Funny things about gods in games they should be able to regulate their at all times since they gave it to them in the first place.
Also since they are gods they should have no problem if nothing else figure they are on auto pilot and unless something is funny it is automatically granted.
Then again it is just a personel issue I have with the game.
If you want all casters to be equal that is a fine choice to keep it as memorized spells.
Personally I think it is not logical even for a fantasy setting.
Clerics are the instruments of powerful beings and as servents must follow certain rules. They should be powerful.
That being said there are no rules for actually keeping faith in games so it really does not matter if the casting rules make sense or not.
Just a quick point here.
Most deities have like a ton of avatars so what if a dozen or so are just there to look after the faithful and grant spells the other ones are battleing their direct oposite somewhere or ruleing in their divine realm.
I think the divine caster should be a mem'ed caster because if not thye just become a little too powerfull.
They're Gods. By definition they can do whatever the DM want's them to.
However for game reasons they should have some sort of metaphysical reasoning behind it.All the novels I've read the gods split their consious to handle various tasks including granting spells. It marginally weakens them, but they don't need all of their power all the time. When you discuss the time management of a gods schedule it's a very relative thing.
I still say fill the cup (caster) and move on to the next task. No need to further split one's consious to constantly watch every cleric just in case they need to cast a spell.
P.S. I'm aware my spelling is crap, but try to look past it.
Novels are the issue I never see a divine caster ever not have the proper spell even in d&d books. They may not have the strength but never the right spell. But to each their own.
I was just asking a question not asking for approval:)
Certainly you can run it that way, but you have to be aware that you're taking one of the unquestionably very strongest classes in the game and making it even stronger thereby.
If balance among character options in your game isn't important to you, that may not matter. People have different opinions on it.
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So does anyone else think it is strange that the servent of a powerful being would have to prepare in advance spells?
Does the god just load him up with godly power in the morning?
Why would the god whose servent is furthering its goals not be granted a spell it needs because they did not prepare it in advance?
Why would a god not prevent a character from using its magic for a purpose contradictory to the god's ethos?
Long story short I let clerics cast whatever spell they want to or need. They must rest and pray but they can cast whatever they need.
If they need a more powerful spell they can call for aid but the penalties for this often means it is a last ditch effort.
Well I always hated the idea they were little more than magicusers. I like to have PC clerics pray as they need a spell instead of loading up pre-emptively. It allows a God to 'deny service' to a cleric who stuffed up.
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No, it doesn't make a lot of sense. However, the alternative is either allow them to cast spontaneously, or have the god decide on the spot.
I can't see most gods being that involved in their cleric's day to day life. Yes, they might take special interest in a particular cleric, but they're not going to watch him 24/7. You also have the added problem that some groups would not take a cleric being denied his spells well.
Spontaneous cleric casting is just a Bad Idea. Unless you want the cleric to dominate the game, overshadowing everyone, just don't do it. Our cleric in RotRL was casting spontaneously, and he was cheesy and overpowered. Granted, he was also casting from pretty much any of the 3.5 books we had, and I think there were a couple of spells being stacked that shouldn't have, but even without that it's too much. I don't like the current cleric system, but I've yet to see a satisfactory alternative.
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No, it doesn't make a lot of sense. However, the alternative is either allow them to cast spontaneously, or have the god decide on the spot.
I can't see most gods being that involved in their cleric's day to day life. Yes, they might take special interest in a particular cleric, but they're not going to watch him 24/7. You also have the added problem that some groups would not take a cleric being denied his spells well.
Spontaneous cleric casting is just a Bad Idea. Unless you want the cleric to dominate the game, overshadowing everyone, just don't do it. Our cleric in RotRL was casting spontaneously, and he was cheesy and overpowered. Granted, he was also casting from pretty much any of the 3.5 books we had, and I think there were a couple of spells being stacked that shouldn't have, but even without that it's too much. I don't like the current cleric system, but I've yet to see a satisfactory alternative.
Then you realize that a Cleric charged up on immortal batteryjuice might be grabbed by the BBEG and nailed to an altar who conducts a ceremony to draw off spell capacity and channel it into some Object.
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Then you realize that a Cleric charged up on immortal batteryjuice might be grabbed by the BBEG and nailed to an altar who conducts a ceremony to draw off spell capacity and channel it into some Object.
Isn't that how one becomes a god? Draining clerics of their stored up divine energy and infusing it into oneself until you've absorbed 1,000,000 spell levels and gain Divine Rank 0?
Or have I been doing it wrong...
<sorry padre, I misread the instructions>
So does anyone else think it is strange that the servent of a powerful being would have to prepare in advance spells?
Yes, although I don't think it's any more strange than wizards having to prepare spells in advance. I.e., it's Vancian spellcasting that's strange, not the fact that it applies equally to arcane and divine casters.