Lately there have been people in the games that I've been running/playing trying to cast spells with verbal components either while invisible or while hiding. At first people were being allowed to whisper their spells, but I now realize that casters can't do that because they have to cast in a 'strong voice'.
My question is, what sort of penalty should people get to their stealth checks for trying to cast a spell with verbal components while hiding? Maybe they could try to make a 'sniping' check so their spot isn't found...
Lately there have been people in the games that I've been running/playing trying to cast spells with verbal components either while invisible or while hiding. At first people were being allowed to whisper their spells, but I now realize that casters can't do that because they have to cast in a 'strong voice'.
My question is, what sort of penalty should people get to their stealth checks for trying to cast a spell with verbal components while hiding? Maybe they could try to make a 'sniping' check so their spot isn't found...
Straight DC20 perception for me.
Edit:
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check.
Modifier: In combat or speaking –20
20 + 20 - 20 = 20.
Hmm, makes sense. Unless you have some way of blocking your voice (unlikely) there's no way a stealth check will help someone not notice that you're talking. So, it is just a standard perception to notice the talking.
So, if you succeeded on the perception check you would only know the direction the sound was coming from, right? No pinpointing the location of a speaking invisible person?
Hmm, makes sense. Unless you have some way of blocking your voice (unlikely) there's no way a stealth check will help someone not notice that you're talking. So, it is just a standard perception to notice the talking.
So, if you succeeded on the perception check you would only know the direction the sound was coming from, right? No pinpointing the location of a speaking invisible person?
That's what the +20 DC is for.
Base DC 20 to get a sense of where an invisible creature is.
+20 DC to pinpoint.
-20 DC while it is speaking / in combat.
It gets horrific pretty quickly if they actually have the Stealth skill, however.
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I'd make this two checks; check #1 for the perceptor to hear the caster and determine his general location and check #2 a Stealth v. Perception check between caster and perceptor.
As you pointed out, a creature can't Stealth its intoning without Silent Spell or something similar so the caster doesn't get a Stealth check to hide his voice. The DC to hear a spoken conversation begins at 0. I'd almost go so far as to say the DC for hearing a strongly intoned spell being cast would be around a -2 to -5. The DC of any Perception check increases by +1 for every 10ft between the perceptor and the source. For now, I'll set the DC at -5 to hear a spell being cast so, unless the perceptor is beyond 10ft of the caster, the DC is a paltry -5 to figure out a caster is close and in what direction the sound is coming from.
The second check pitting the Stealth of the caster vs. the senses of the perceptor would be handled normally, but don't forget that many spells originate at the position of the caster so things like lightning bolts and burning hands are going to give the caster's general position at time of casting away every time.
I wouldn't penalize the Stealth check for the caster because the first check is going to determine if the perceptor can figure out where he's standing. By casting a spell, the caster has already conceded that he's likely going to give up his general position as soon as he opens his mouth. However, the perceptor still has to spot him (or smell him or whatever) in order to target the caster with an attack.
Hmmm, so I can either increase the DC for pinpoint or allow a separate stealth check. I'll have to think on that. Thanks for the help :D
Unfortunately, the soon-to-be arcane trickster in the group I'm running probably won't be too happy about either option, lol.
Cast ventriloquism, then invisibility. Have fun. :D
Umbral, thats an awesome idea... ;)
It definitely is. I've used this against the PCs several times, yet they've never clued on to it themselves. Invisible Caster stealths as best they can to the high ground, casts Ventrilo, then unleashes their 'Attack' Spell.
Now given that Invisibility will break after a hostile action, the NPC using this trick needs to get their arse out of immediate retaliation range of the PCs. That said, Invisibility in a room full of gongs being rung by Mass Unseen Servants would certainly distract the PCs while the Wizard runs up the staircase, then drops a Chain Lightning or Circle of Death onto the PCs, or hell in the case of a Bard, pull a lever that opens a pit-trap below them or drops a 10-by-10 cube of the ceiling on their head, whichever works.
Personally, I'd also trap the Stairwell, just to be an ass, but give the PCs an option to bring the Caster down, ie destroying the pillar the balcony the Enemy NPC is standing on.
DC20 perception check, modified by range as normal, to pinpoint them to a five foot space. Failure by less than five should give an 'over there-ish' result. Remember that to recognize a spell being cast, the Spellcraft DC goes up by 5 for each missing or unperceived component, thus: Material and Somatic components cannot be seen, because they are invisible, imposes a -10 to the spellcraft check to determine the spell.
DC20 perception check, modified by range as normal, to pinpoint them to a five foot space. Failure by less than five should give an 'over there-ish' result. Remember that to recognize a spell being cast, the Spellcraft DC goes up by 5 for each missing or unperceived component, thus: Material and Somatic components cannot be seen, because they are invisible, imposes a -10 to the spellcraft check to determine the spell.
Action: Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast....."
I don't see anything about still being able to even make the check by RAW if you the caster is invisible. Now if the caster is visible you get to apply the modifiers on the table in the perception skill area.