How do you determine what increases when adding class levels to a monster? The Monster advancement section is pretty clear about basic stats (HP, saves, skills, feats, etc.), but is not at all clear about other abilities.
Take an azer for example, it is CR 2 creature with 13 SR. That makes sense as creatures with SR usually have 11 + their CR. If I were to give it 5 levels of fighter, it would become a CR 7 creature. Would it's SR therefore in crease to 18? What if I were to allow one of my players to play an azer? Would the SR increase at the same rate?
What if I were to advance a spellcasting creature, such as a dragon? A gold dragon can cast cleric spells as arcane spells. Does that mean that if I add 10 levels of sorcerer to a very old gold dragon, it would have a CL of 23 AND be able to select cleric spells as its sorcerer spells known?
What about a creature capable of casting spells without somatic or material components, such as a naga? Would adding sorcerer levels to such a creature suddenly force it to need somatic components for its class spells? If so, how does one differentiat between race and class spells? They are supposed to stack, aren't they? What about creatures that cast spells, but the spell list isn't defined, as is the case for the Rakshasa. Would adding druid levels to a Rakshasa increase it's natural spellcasting ability? How would that work exactly?
Do the HD-based DCs for various abilities (such as distraction, trample, web, whirlwind, etc.) increase with class levels?
How do you determine what increases when adding class levels to a monster? The Monster advancement section is pretty clear about basic stats (HP, saves, skills, feats, etc.), but is not at all clear about other abilities.
Take an azer for example, it is CR 2 creature with 13 SR. That makes sense as creatures with SR usually have 11 + their CR. If I were to give it 5 levels of fighter, it would become a CR 7 creature. Would it's SR therefore in crease to 18? What if I were to allow one of my players to play an azer? Would [/quthe SR increase at the same rate?
I prefer tying it to HD, like stuff like drow do, but if it's based on CR then I'd use the new CR. Some SR = HD + X, some = CR + X, so I'd use whichever is appropriate (for example, I'm fairly certain a fiendish human with 13 levels of Fighter is a CR 13 creature with 18 SR).
What if I were to advance a spellcasting creature, such as a dragon? A gold dragon can cast cleric spells as arcane spells. Does that mean that if I add 10 levels of sorcerer to a very old gold dragon, it would have a CL of 23 AND be able to select cleric spells as its sorcerer spells known?
If a creature casts spells "as a <class>" then their spellcasting abilities stack. The dragons say that they can cast those particular cleric spells, so yes, the dragon-sorcerer would be able to learn cleric spells with his sorcerer levels; by virtue of being a dragon (those cheeky bast-lizards).
What about a creature capable of casting spells without somatic or material components, such as a naga? Would adding sorcerer levels to such a creature suddenly force it to need somatic components for its class spells? If so, how does one differentiat between race and class spells? They are supposed to stack, aren't they? What about creatures that cast spells, but the spell list isn't defined, as is the case for the Rakshasa. Would adding druid levels to a Rakshasa increase it's natural spellcasting ability? How would that work exactly?
If a creature specifically says they don't need to be able to cast with somatic components, then they don't have to. If they are simply using spell-like abilities (which don't require components) then they cannot. In the case of the Rakshasa, they are supposed to cast spells as a sorcerer (this seems to be overlooked or left out for the PF Rakshasa) so in this case, I guess you'd have to make a GM call on it, or assume it stacks with no class. However, if you don't choose a class that it casts as, then its spells are neither arcane nor divine, which causes a glitch.
As a GM, I'd say the Rakshasa defaults to casting as a sorcerer; though you might be able to reverse-engineer the class it casts as by checking their spells and caster level vs their ability scores and feats to see which modifies the save DCs. If Cha = Sorcerer, if Int = Wizard, if Wis = Cleric or Druid; possibly bard, paladin, or ranger, depending on their caster level and spell selection.
Do the HD-based DCs for various abilities (such as distraction, trample, web, whirlwind, etc.) increase with class levels?
If a creature specifically says they don't need to be able to cast with somatic components, then they don't have to.
Most, like the naga, don't. However, I think it fairly obvious they are capable of doing exactly that.
Rakshasas cast as a sorcerer. This is denoted by the term "spells known".
That said, if a monster has innate spell casting ability and it calls out a certain class that it emulates, gaining levels in that class would stack for the purposes of spell casting.
In the case of the Rakshasa, if you added 2 levels of sorcerer the resulting creature would have a CL of 9 and have spell slots and spells known as a 9th level sorcerer. However, it would only gain bloodline abilities as a 2nd level sorcerer.
With the case of the casting from multiple lists, lets look at the Couatl (because I like them).
Spells A couatl casts spells as a 9th-level sorcerer, and can cast spells from the cleric list as well as those normally available to a sorcerer. Cleric spells are considered arcane spells for a couatl, meaning that the creature does not need a divine focus to cast them.
This specifically calls out the caster level, the class the spell progression comes from, and that it can cast from two different lists with the same spell slots. In this case, it tells you that it essentially treats the cleric spell list as part of the sorcerer spell list for the purpose of choosing spells known. It doesn't specify that it can only choose a certain couple of cleric spells, or that it can only choose cleric spells under a certain level. It says that it can cast spells from the cleric list as well as those from the sorcerer list. So, adding two levels of sorcerer would give this couatl the ability to know 5th level cleric spells and 5th level sorcerer spells.
Now, SR is another issue. In the case of some creatures, such as the Drow, it is specifically called out that they gain spell resistance based on their class level. With the alternate dwarf racial trait "Magic Resistant", it also specifies that they gain SR based on level. In the "creating monsters" section in the bestiary, it does suggest that SR on a creature ought to equal 11 + CR. But this is just upon creation. Since the azer entry doesn't specify that it would gain additional SR by being improved, by RAW, it doesn't. It does make sense to boost it if you increase the power of the monster since SR quickly becomes useless if it doesn't scale.
HD based abilities would improve with any increase in HD. Class levels are equal to HD for the purposes of effects. Abilities that are based on racial HD (such as stuff for zombies and skeletons) would not increase with class levels.
With the case of the casting from multiple lists, lets look at the Couatl (because I like them).
Spells A couatl casts spells as a 9th-level sorcerer, and can cast spells from the cleric list as well as those normally available to a sorcerer. Cleric spells are considered arcane spells for a couatl, meaning that the creature does not need a divine focus to cast them.This specifically calls out the caster level, the class the spell progression comes from, and that it can cast from two different lists with the same spell slots. In this case, it tells you that it essentially treats the cleric spell list as part of the sorcerer spell list for the purpose of choosing spells known. It doesn't specify that it can only choose a certain couple of cleric spells, or that it can only choose cleric spells under a certain level. It says that it can cast spells from the cleric list as well as those from the sorcerer list. So, adding two levels of sorcerer would give this couatl the ability to know 5th level cleric spells and 5th level sorcerer spells.
Could I add cleric levels to a couatl and have it stack with their innate spellcasting? Or am I limited to stacking sorcerer levels?
Just sorcerer, since it specifically calls out the spell casting as being from sorcerer spell casting. Adding 2 cleric levels would give you access to all level 1 and 0 cleric spells plus 2 domains and 1d6 channel energy. Your couatl would just also have access to a limited selection of cleric spells known that it could cast in its sorcerer spell slots.
It's sort of similar to stacking wizard and sorcerer levels. Do they share almost identical spell lists? Yes. (Almost identical because there are a few sorcerer-only and wizard-only spells.) Does that mean that adding 2 wizard levels to the couatl allows it to cast as an 11th level wizard? It does not. The couatl gets an interesting exception to its sorcerer spell list, but those cleric spells are specifically called out at being arcane sorcerer spells.
Could I add cleric levels to a couatl and have it stack with their innate spellcasting? Or am I limited to stacking sorcerer levels?
Only sorcerer levels would stack with its innate spellcasting.
Thank you everyone. If anyone else knows of any gray areas within the rules pertaining to monster class advancement, by all means share them so that we can find the answers.
How do you determine what increases when adding class levels to a monster? The Monster advancement section is pretty clear about basic stats (HP, saves, skills, feats, etc.), but is not at all clear about other abilities.
Take an azer for example, it is CR 2 creature with 13 SR. That makes sense as creatures with SR usually have 11 + their CR. If I were to give it 5 levels of fighter, it would become a CR 7 creature. Would it's SR therefore in crease to 18? What if I were to allow one of my players to play an azer? Would the SR increase at the same rate?
What if I were to advance a spellcasting creature, such as a dragon? A gold dragon can cast cleric spells as arcane spells. Does that mean that if I add 10 levels of sorcerer to a very old gold dragon, it would have a CL of 23 AND be able to select cleric spells as its sorcerer spells known?
What about a creature capable of casting spells without somatic or material components, such as a naga? Would adding sorcerer levels to such a creature suddenly force it to need somatic components for its class spells? If so, how does one differentiat between race and class spells? They are supposed to stack, aren't they? What about creatures that cast spells, but the spell list isn't defined, as is the case for the Rakshasa. Would adding druid levels to a Rakshasa increase it's natural spellcasting ability? How would that work exactly?Do the HD-based DCs for various abilities (such as distraction, trample, web, whirlwind, etc.) increase with class levels?
Most creature's follow CR + 10 or 11 = sr, I use this when I advance the monster as well, keeping it's SR from becoming a redundant feature that is accounted for in it's boosted CR seems logical.
Otherwise monsters arent made with the players in mind, if you want to make it a player race it is probably best to assume SR = 13+ class levels.
Any spellcasting ability that stacks should follow the same rules and benefits, as far as I have seen at least in 3.5, cant recall a precedent in pathfinder.
HD based DC's use racial HD only, but can be enhanced by raising the corresponding ability modifier and ability focus feat.
HD based DC's use racial HD only, but can be enhanced by raising the corresponding ability modifier and ability focus feat.
I have found this to not always be the case. In fact, ALL of the example abilities I listed specifically don't say racial HD like many others (such as poison and petrify) do.
HD based DC's use racial HD only, but can be enhanced by raising the corresponding ability modifier and ability focus feat.
Can you provide a source for this?
How about if you were to add racial HD levels to a creature with spellcasting ability?
For example a Nymph is 8 HD (fey) and casts spells like a L7 druid
Advancing druid levels would raise the druid caster level, oki I get that. But what if I wanted to create say a "Nymph Queen" that ruled a forest (thinking of Syntira from Darkmoon Vale here) and wanted to simply advance her to say 15 HD. Would her druid casting level stay at L7, or would her caster level (and thus max spell level, and spells per day) rise too? If so at what rate, HD-1 or +1 per level?
Thanx
How about if you were to add racial HD levels to a creature with spellcasting ability?
For example a Nymph is 8 HD (fey) and casts spells like a L7 druid
Advancing druid levels would raise the druid caster level, oki I get that. But what if I wanted to create say a "Nymph Queen" that ruled a forest (thinking of Syntira from Darkmoon Vale here) and wanted to simply advance her to say 15 HD. Would her druid casting level stay at L7, or would her caster level (and thus max spell level, and spells per day) rise too? If so at what rate, HD-1 or +1 per level?
Thanx
Racial HD are not class levels. If you only bump racial HD the druid levels do not increase by the rules. You would be better off giving her druid levels or just bypassing the rules and saying "I am the GM".
By the rules, spellcasting doesn't increase when you add racial HD.
When I use my house rules, I increase innate spellcaster level by 1 for each point of CR added via racial HD.
By the rules, spellcasting doesn't increase when you add racial HD.
When I use my house rules, I increase innate spellcaster level by 1 for each point of CR added via racial HD.
Sounds a bit daft to me that they don't improve as a creature of that type gets more powerful... and I think your house rule makes sense.
Don't like the idea of "one of the 11 eternal monarchs" being 'just' a Nymph stats-wise. I want to have my players clash with a nymph (problems with Lumber Consortium encroaching on their territory), ao that when eventually my players meet the Nymph Queen she'll tell them that the nymph they faced was but a youngling, and she's a queen. Doesn't make sense to me that the queen of the forest would be magically equal to a normal nymph, but just more hp, attacks, et al. So guess I'll prolly have to give her druid levels instead of racial ones then...
Thanx!