This is probably an already done gripe, but I none-the-less feel like bringing it up anyways.
At least half of the sorceror bloodline powers are essentially the same.
Level 1: A ray.
Level 3: Reach, don't recall seeing that much elsewhere
Level 9: Fortification, also reasonably distinct
Level 15: SR, a few others have this
Level 20: Full fortification, a vision ability, and DR, the standard set of immunities and extra ability
One of the more distinct lines
Level 1: Natural attacks.
Level 3: Resistance and save boost,
Level 9: Stat boost,
Level 15: additional summoning, this is unique
Level 20: Immunities, resistance, and a communication ability, the standard.
At level 15 you get something unique
Level 1: A touch attack
Level 3: You get your move speed bonus early and gets upgraded to the usual resistance and AC. You do get vision ability at a reasonable time
Level 9: Communication, and some compulsion abilities
Level 15: Control water, this is different
Level 20: vision, resistance, dr, and a few more boosts underwater
You get pretty much all the usual stuff but earlier than most at price of it being conditional.
Level 1: Familiar / bond, while you can write it off as a mere extra feat, a familiar is distinct from the rest of the bloodlines
Level 3: metamagic, no other line something similar to this (I'll leave my gripe of longer casting time aside for this)
Level 9: extra spells, nice, distinct, but not too original
Level 15: DC pump, same as above
Level 20: Permanent level 3 ability (not too distinct), but here it has an ability that is unobtainable otherwise. That may be related to the fact that it's completely unbroken.
It's unique, but feels a little bland. It's probably the optimizer's choice too.
Level 1: Enchantment, rather good one actually, both distinct from other level 1's and quite worthwhile
Level 3: Resistance and movement, I had high hopes after the level 1 ability
Level 9: Movement abilities, a bit of overlap with Aquatic but it's distinct enough
Level 15: Control Winds, similar to Aquatic
Level 20: Immunities
While it's very similar to Aquatic, it does come out differently.
Level 1: ranged touch attack
Level 3: resistances
Level 9: You get your flight earlier than most
Level 15: Defensive rerolls, not readily findable period.
Level 20: Immunites, resistances, saves, and unlimited flying
Only unique thing here is flying earlier than other bloodlines and rerolls, otherwise generic.
Level 1: Combat maneuver, quite effective actually
Level 3: vision stuff
Level 9: enchantment, while more potent than the Boreal, coming so late makes actions even more valuable then.
Level 15: Movement
Level 20: DR, immunities
Underwhelming past first level
Level 1: Buff, this is actually one of the few can I could see getting used at high levels.
Level 3: Saves and AC, this one is more substantial boost but at cost of conditional
Level 9: Offensive reroll, good but the celestial is nicer, not to knock it though
Level 15: "I'm not dead yet!" Unique and good.
Level 20: Autopass things and effective fortification. Already seen fortification, but the autopassing is unique
Not very interesting at low level, but one of the better ones for high level play.
Level 1: natural attacks
Level 3: Resistance and AC
Level 9: AoE attack
Level 15: Flying
level 20: Immunities and vision
Pretty bad that there's nothing unique here at all.
Level 1: SLA, not that great
Level 3: Initiative bonus, not that many in the game, but not that interesting
Level 9: SLA, very campaign specific. Absolutely great for RP heavy campaign.
Level 15: SLA, again campaign specific.
Level 20: Incorporeal, there's a number of things that mimic this, albeit not exactly
Mid-levels it's great for RP, mechanically it's lacking for any amount dungeon-crawling
Level 1: Ray
Level 3: Resistance
Level 9: AoE
Level 15: movement
Level 20: Immunities
Yawn.
Level 1: Touch attack, effectively uncapped daze as melee touch, eh.
Level 3: Movement
Level 9: Invis
Level 15: Reroll SR check, worse than destined
Level 20: DR, SLA, but get decent ability to not be attacked by some things. By level 20, animals should not be a problem though.
Aside from the bloodline arcana, not much of a reason to pick this.
Level 1: Touch attack
Level 3: resistance and saves
Level 9: AoE
Level 15: Flying
Level 20: immunities, resistance, vision
It seems pretty bad in spoiler block, but I like it because all of it's abilities fit together into a nice flavorful package. Some people are going to go "draconic does that too". All the things in the draconic line are things I would expect a dragon to do. However, a person simply with draconic blood? Not quite so much, I just don't see draconic blood manifesting that way. I can see someone who themselves or their ancestors made a pact with a devil doing those things. Probably the big thing that makes the Infernal line more "real" to me is the nice touch of making the touch attack and AoE add the shaken effect. So if you don't think the Infernal bloodline is flavorful, you are wrong.[/rant]
Level 1: buff, not quite as good as the destined one. The destined buff worked out of combat where action economy isn't that important.
Level 3: Saves and AC, immunity to fear later.
Level 9: Stat boost
Level 15: Combat buff
Level 20: Immunity, DR, and SLA
I give this a decent rating because all of it's abilities all point in one direction, and in a direction I see orcs going. Which is smashing things. Not one that I'd really suggest for a PC, but more for an interesting NPC.
Level 1: Tanglefoot bags, very good early on, but losses effectiveness like most other level 1 abilities
Level 3: Resistance and Saves
Level 9: Asymmetric Solid Fog, nice, but solid fog has lost much of it's glory from 3.5. A little underwhelming since it is centered about you.
Level 15: Tentacles + dim door, not bad. A little tough to take advantage of but very good when it works.
Level 20: Immunities
Not bad, but not good, at least it is fairly distinct
Level 1: natural attacks
Level 3: Speak with animals, hard to get with sorcerors and rather than expanding how you can communicate it expands what you can communicate with, so that's a difference from others
Level 9: AC, saves, escape artist
Level 15: SLA, fairly good SLA too.
Level 20: Immunities, infinite level 1 ability, but the interesting part is the shapechanging.
This has a similar problem that the draconic line has except a bit less severe since the level 3 and 20 is a bit more believable, however mechanically it just isn't as good.
Level 1: touch attack
Level 3: Darkvision
Level 9: Similar to hide in plain sight and later get a dim door
Level 15: SLA with additional effect
Level 20: Shadow line of spells more effective
While mechanically very weak until mid-levels, it catches up. What sells me on this is similar to Infernal. Everything fits together into one idea, this includes the spell selection, arcana, class skill, and feats. You want your sneaky sorceror, look no further. If I were to come up against any Drow sorcerors, there ought to be a real good reason why they wouldn't have this bloodline. That's flavor.
Level 1: Minor SLA
Level 3: Resist and vision. What makes this one interesting is that it progresses to not needing to breathe.
Level 9: Improved wall of fire
Level 15: Better teleports, and a SoD
Level 20: Immunities, vision, and fast healing
It's a minor fit of abilities to idea, mostly at level 9 and 15. Rest of it doesn't really mesh.
Level 1: Good enchantment
Level 3: Resistance and reduced wind effects, later vision in fog
Level 9: AoE
Level 15: Zip around on a lightning bolt, need I say more?
Level 20: Immunities, and absorbtion, and vision.
Really just the level 15 ability is cool. Decent flavor, but not great; I could see how could love it.
Level 1: fear touch
Level 3: Resist and DR
Level 9: AoE
Level 15: Incorporeal
Level 20: Look undead, Undead are not hostile to you. This is typically more relevant than the Fey one as there are more nasty high level undeads. Immunities, DR, and saves.
Maybe my love for the 3.5 Dread Necromancer made my expectations too high, but I was kinda hoping that you'd turn into a lich or something like that. Oh well.
Level 1: Combat maneuvers, also strictly better than the deep earth one.
Level 3: Saves and free ring of sustenance
Level 9: Plantmorphing
Level 15: Gain buffs if not moving as a tree
Level 20: Immunities even if not a tree
I like it because it does exactly what I would expect it to do.
Overall, there are a lot of repeats of abilities. There's some true gems in list like Infernal and Shadow. They just didn't pull things together a lot of the time. Even one with rather generic abilities turned out great because they fit well, however it's hard to hit a home run like that. There's a number of bloodlines that I simply don't see people using because they're neither flavorful, distinct, or powerful (elemental). Granted when I started this thread I expected to be harsher than I was, but still there were enough that I could just completely write off.
My sorcerer is of the Arcane Bloodline, and I really don't see what you're saying about it being conditional at all. I've found that my bloodline abilities are some of the most downright useful tricks I have up my sleeves. Being able to spontaneously cast metamagic is awesome, and getting a Ring of Wizardry II at essentially half price (see the rules for adding magical effects to a bonded item) was really nice. The bonus spell is lackluster, I admit, but that's only because I'm a human sorcerer (Favored Class ability no way!) and that didn't exist when Sorcerer was first printed. For the DC increase, I picked Transmutation, which stacked nicely with my Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, making my Baleful Polymorph, Slow, and Disintegrate (among others) downright deadly and Arcane's capstone, in my opinion, is one of the best bloodline capstones in the game, single-handily removing one of the Sorcerer's biggest drawbacks.
In terms of roleplaying, a good player shouldn't have to rely on game mechanics for roleplaying in the same way that RP fluff should never over-complicate the game mechanics in a good game. For example, my Sorcerer uses his bonded object as his family's signet ring, since he comes from a wealthy family of arcanists. It was a theme I continued when I added his sister, a Magician-Bard, as his cohort; she got the ability to gain a ring as a bonded object as well.
This is probably an already done gripe, but I none-the-less feel like bringing it up anyways.
At least half of the sorcerer bloodline powers are essentially the same.
*spoilers omitted*
Overall, there are a lot of repeats of abilities. There's some true gems in list like Infernal and Shadow. They just didn't pull things together a lot of the time. Even one with rather generic abilities turned out great because they fit well, however it's hard to hit a home run like that. There's a number of bloodlines that I simply don't see people using because they're neither flavorful, distinct, or powerful (elemental). Granted when I started this thread I expected to be harsher than I was, but still there were enough that I could just completely write off.
I don't really have a problem with a number of the powers being similar to one another. Some things like ray attacks, touch attacks, and flight are generally useful to adventurers, and worth repeating. (Vary the flavoring, of course.)
I also don't have a problem with some of the ones you call boring. Of course, I like some of those, and am not interested in some of the one's with flavor that appeals to you. I'm just glad they made more than a dozen of them, so that there's be at least a couple that appeal to any given player. The shotgun approach was certainly a good way to go with this.
Where I very much agree with you is that the power level should have been evened out a bit. I would like it if, no matter which flavor you pick, you get the same amount of power for it.
My sorcerer is of the Arcane Bloodline, and I really don't see what you're saying about it being conditional at all.
He said that the aquatic bloodline powers were conditional. About arcane he said, "It's unique, but feels a little bland. It's probably the optimizer's choice too."
The spacing around spoilers is kinda wonky.
I think arcane is supposed to be bland, it is the default if nothing else really fits or is utterly redundant.
Giving a dragon draconic bloodline might fit thematically, but is utterly redundant for just about everything, so Arcane would be a better fit.
I think players generally are attracted to the bloodlines with the juicy power bits, the unique powers and flavor. Making unique powers has a habbit to overcompensate quickly and while I like bloodlines I do not want them to define a character completely by default.
I would like to see some optional powers for existing bloodlines though, something like an archetype elemental earth sorc.
(because I really hate the earth = acid theory mostly)
I rather see some DR/- or adamantine instead of acid resist, or rather see a sharp rocky or metallic missile rather than an acid attack as a ranged attack, penetrating different kinds of DR at higher levels.
It doesn't bother me that much though I can easily swap out a few powers I do not like for similar level powers without going overboard, I am free to use houserules anyway.
This is probably an already done gripe, but I none-the-less feel like bringing it up anyways.
At least half of the sorceror bloodline powers are essentially the same.
How do you rate Kobold Quarterly's #13 Shadow bloodline?
I love the sorcerer bloodlines, it's one of my favorite changes/additions from 3.0/3.5. But I do like the idea of alternate ability choices/bonus spells for sorcerers.
What do you mean about the Fey bloodlines ability to penetrate spell resistance is weaker than Destined bloodine, you can use it at will while Destined is limited use.
Also you forgot the Pestiliance bloodline.
An interesting review of Paizo's bloodlines.
How do you rate Kobold Quarterly's #13 Shadow bloodline?
Or, for that matter, Wayfinder #1's Shadow Bloodline (the original shadow bloodline) created by our very own Ogre and graciously updated for the current rules by him here.
I stuck with this one for my character after having reviewed all three versions. I should admit however that, seeing as how I'd always intended to multiclass into mystic theurge after only four levels of sorcerer, I looked at the various bloodlines in respects of their lower level powers only.
I would love to see feats that enhance or add new bloodline abilities(like a feat tree for each bloodline) after all Witchs get the extra hex feat and Oracles get the extra revelations feat.
The spacing around spoilers is kinda wonky.
It looked a lot better when I was typing it.
I love the sorcerer bloodlines, it's one of my favorite changes/additions from 3.0/3.5. But I do like the idea of alternate ability choices/bonus spells for sorcerers.
What do you mean about the Fey bloodlines ability to penetrate spell resistance is weaker than Destined bloodine, you can use it at will while Destined is limited use.
Also you forgot the Pestiliance bloodline.
I like that they gave the sorceror something in the intervening 19 levels too, and it is one of my favorite additions as well. That being said, some of them were executed poorly.
How many times are you going to need to penetrate SR each day? or more accurately, how times are you going to roll poorly on SR rolls each day? The big thing about the destined one is that it allows rerolls for hitting with rays, and rays are a good way to get around saves.
I haven't heard of the pestilence bloodline. It's not on the SRD or PRD so I don't have it.
How do you rate Kobold Quarterly's #13 Shadow bloodline?
I am poor, therefore I only have SRD / PRD.
Or, for that matter, Wayfinder #1's Shadow Bloodline (the original shadow bloodline) created by our very own Ogre and graciously updated for the current rules by him here.
Pre-breakdown: feels narrow and forgets a few key ideas. (I'll use you just to be shorthand for Ogre)
Spell list: I like the switches to SI and invis. I think deeper darkness is a superior fit and something the bloodline as whole is lacking. More on the level 3 ability. The switch between greater conj and blind is a toss up.Arcana: I like that it scales a lot better was you go up.
Level 1: Big improvement, while a stealthy guy ought to be able to sneak up to melee range, when they do, it ought to do more than some damage and dazzle.
Level 3: This is what comes to my head: http://www.myspace.com/buvie/photos/21866830#{%22ImageId%22%3A21866830}
This is the big point that I'm going to hammer on. What your line does is min/max stealthiness. Being able to work in shadows well is not very helpful when you can't make it dark (before level 20). While the level 3 from paizo has the issue of not working with it's own deeper darkness, at least it tries to makes an attempt at having your character deal with the darkness himself. I am very surprised that you dropped the ball on the very simple fix to make it work. Just simply add in the darkvision working in magical darkness at level 9. This is one aspect where I don't buy the fact that this shadow blooded sorceror spends a lot of time in shadows and darkness. It is a little reminiscent of Splinter Cell and my opinions about that are accurately summarized by Zero Punctuation (google it).
Level 9: I like the improvement. The Paizo one is little unwieldy.
Level 15: I am a fan of boosting realness of the shadow spells, but comparing it to the fact that Paizo's addresses the issue of needing to see in one's own shadows while also giving you tactical advantage is nice. Afterwords I have a word on boosting shadow reality.
Level 20: I like the mechanics of it and what it is going for, but it fails to deliver. While boost illusion DC's is nice, typically you don't want to be next to your illusions. While the arcana patches the issue of them seeing you cast an illusion, it doesn't patch up the fact that it is when people are up close to your illusions that they fall apart. If you want to take advantage of the DC boost, you have to look something like this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0210.html Sure they don't see you there, but they see something is there. Meanwhile the Paizo version gives you perfect vision in all darkness, which is something that a shadowy sorceror ought to achieve. Your sorceror is still defeated by someone else's deeper darkness. Hell even regular darkness since he doesn't get any darkvision. You shouldn't be able to defeat a shadow sorceror by making it dark.
Bonus: Ogre's Shadow Scout PrC
In two words: Dragon Disciple.
Here's how people will play the PrC: 1 sorc / 4 ranger / 5 scout / 10 ranger or 2 sorc / 3 ranger / 4 scout / 11 ranger for the 3rd level spells. While it isn't as big of a boon as the sorc / pal / DD because of the different stats, I still see it being done. You can't go 1 ranger / 4 sorc / 5 scout / 10 sorc because you'll still lose the capstone, meanwhile you can go 5 sorc / 10 DD / 5 sorc and capstone. Sure you'll suck up the casting, but you capstone. The ranger simply has much more to gain from the PrC than the sorc. It is a step in the right direction though, or maybe I'm just accustomed to 3.5 PrC's.
Yeah, I read partway down before realizing which comments were for which bloodline.The spacing around spoilers is kinda wonky.It looked a lot better when I was typing it.
If that edit button lasted longer I'd clean it up, but I had something to do immediately after I finished it.
The Pestiliance bloodline is in the AP called "Mother of flies" for the Council of thieves.
At level 15 and up you will see a lot creatures with spell resistance and the Fey bloodline lets you choose to roll twice and take the better of the two rolls. but I think the Celestial bloodline's 15th level ability is weak and doesn't fit well and that is why having alternate choices for your abilities would rule.
The Pestiliance bloodline is in the AP called "Mother of flies" for the Council of thieves.
At level 15 and up you will see a lot creatures with spell resistance and the Fey bloodline lets you choose to roll twice and take the better of the two rolls. but I think the Celestial bloodline's 15th level ability is weak and doesn't fit well and that is why having alternate choices for your abilities would rule.
If you write it up I'll look at it.
What sells me on the celestial reroll is the fact that it covers saves. Making a save usually matters more than making a hit. The rest of the uses are mediocre for casters, though making that occasional missed ray can be nice.
What do you mean about the Fey bloodlines ability to penetrate spell resistance is weaker than Destined bloodine, you can use it at will while Destined is limited use.How many times are you going to need to penetrate SR each day? or more accurately, how times are you going to roll poorly on SR rolls each day? The big thing about the destined one is that it allows rerolls for hitting with rays, and rays are a good way to get around saves.
Don't forget that the fey bloodline gives +2 save DC on compulsion spells. This bloodline is what you'd want for a classic enchanter/enchantress or mind control specialist, because that entire range of spells allows both save and SR as defenses. If you're playing a Save-or-Obey build, you're going to want all the Save DC and SR penetration you can get!
Save at level 17:
9th level spell + Fey bloodline + Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus + charisma = Save DC 33 with a re-roll from Persistent Spell = about a 75% chance to work against a CR 20 monster.
SR at level 17:
Spell Penetration + Greater Spell Penetration + Fey Bloodline = +4 and a re-roll vs SR = 80 % chance vs a CR 20 monster.
Chance to mind control (dominate monster) a CR 20 BBEG at level 17 = 60%
(Chance to mind control a mook/minion = 90% or higher)
What do you mean about the Fey bloodlines ability to penetrate spell resistance is weaker than Destined bloodine, you can use it at will while Destined is limited use.How many times are you going to need to penetrate SR each day? or more accurately, how times are you going to roll poorly on SR rolls each day? The big thing about the destined one is that it allows rerolls for hitting with rays, and rays are a good way to get around saves.Don't forget that the fey bloodline gives +2 save DC on compulsion spells. This bloodline is what you'd want for a classic enchanter/enchantress or mind control specialist, because that entire range of spells allows both save and SR as defenses. If you're playing a Save-or-Obey build, you're going to want all the Save DC and SR penetration you can get!
Save at level 17:
9th level spell + Fey bloodline + Spell Focus + Greater Spell Focus + charisma = Save DC 33 with a re-roll from Persistent Spell = about a 75% chance to work against a CR 20 monster.SR at level 17:
Spell Penetration + Greater Spell Penetration + Fey Bloodline = +4 and a re-roll vs SR = 80 % chance vs a CR 20 monster.Chance to mind control (dominate monster) a CR 20 BBEG at level 17 = 60%
(Chance to mind control a mook/minion = 90% or higher)
Yes mechanically it's a good line because that +2 DC is going to matter. The problem with the bloodline is that it is trying to do too many different things. I get the idea that it's supposed to represent a very mystical harmony with nature (as opposed to the druid's more overt defense and worship of it). It's just that the mechanical reasons to play it don't line up very well with what it is representing; compare the match up to that with the shadow line.