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You can get Dex mod to attack rolls and CMB, but I can't seem to find a way to get dex mod to damage for melee attacks. Is it possible? I'm asking in particular for a monk, but I'm also interested just in general too.
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No, there is no way to add dex to damage.
Dex-based characters are pretty much non-starters. You need several feats to get roughly even with a strength char (so you are always several feats behind), there's no way to get dex added to damage as you've noted, and you can't grab power attack - which is the single biggest source of damage that two-hander melee characters have.
Of course, just letting dex characters do it without needing anything at all can break the game, too.
While I haven't done the math for Monks, I've spent the last week thinking (and ranting) about dex based Rogues. My original idea was a single talent that gave Weapon Finesse, Agile Manuevers, Improved Feint, and dex to damage, but it's too powerful. Under the right circumstances, a Rogue with an Elven Curved Blade outdamages a Fighter with a Greatsword.
The objective is not to match a Barbarian's or Paladin's normal damage, and certainly not to exceed a Raging Barbarian or Smiting Paladin. The objective is to get close enough.
Right now, I'm thinking that dex to damage is just too good, given that dex also adds to Reflex saves and increases character mobility (does NOT actually increase AC, since all armor is net +10 or +11, but does let the char wear lighter armor and maintain the same AC, so higher mobility).
What the dex classes need - the Rogue and the Monk, and maybe a Bard alt path - is Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers bundled together as a single "feat equivalent", since if you want one you'll want the other, and Agile Maneuvers doesn't do anything on its own.
Pathfinder in general also needs a feat like Power Attack or Deadly Aim, but with dex as its key stat and the bonus damage only applying to finesseable weapons.
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The Dervish Dance is one way, but it is limited to scimitars.
actually, it's limited to scimitar, one-handed, with absolutely nothing in the off-hand (no two-hander, no dual-wielding, no buckler).
Still, not bad. Didn't know about the feat, so thanks for pointing it out.
You can get Dex mod to attack rolls and CMB, but I can't seem to find a way to get dex mod to damage for melee attacks. Is it possible? I'm asking in particular for a monk, but I'm also interested just in general too.
On page 84 Dragon issue #304 contains the Dead Eye feat, which allows you to add your Dex bonus to damage done on ranged attacks with ranged weapons for which you have the Weapon Focus feat, but only within 30 feet. The damage doesn't affect creatures immune to critical hits. It requires Dex 13, BAB +1, Point Blank Shot, and Weapon Focus (any ranged weapon).
I have a similar feat in my campaign world:
"*Exact Shot [General]
You’ve learned how to place your shots more accurately.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, base attack bonus +2, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (any ranged weapon)
Benefit: When you shoot from within your precise damage range (normally 30’) you gain your Dexterity modifier, if positive, as a bonus to the damage you inflict. The bonus from Exact Shot stacks with the bonus from Point Blank Shot.
Special: Exact Shot does not increase the damage you deal to creatures that are immune to critical hits.
Special: You may take Exact Shot as a bonus feat from the elite archer, fighter, Nindurai or Nintonese samurai classes. "
I have feats in my campaign that allow you to extend your precision range, so that my feat allows the Dex damage to extend when you extend your precision range.
(Edit: I figured I'd better add a sentence clarifying that my feat doesn't allow the damage to apply to creatures immunity to critical hits either. I think it's implicit in the "precision range" text, but just in case, I made it explicit. :-))
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You can't add Dex to damage officially.
In my house rules, I've created a feat, Greater Weapon Finesse, that's only available to 4th level Bards, Rogues, and Monks, that allows the character to add his Dex bonus as PRECISON damage to attacks made with light weapons, rapiers, and monk weapons.
As you know, precision damage (such as sneak) attack, can be ruined if you cannot reach the opponents vitals (very large creature), the opponent has no vitals (oozes), or has concealment. So precision damage is not quite as good as straight Str damage (but I'm sure it depends on the DM).
So far in my playtesting it's worked out great and hasn't been unbalancing. It actually sucks quite a bit losing 2 feats (3 feats counting CMB) just to do this. In some cases it's still better to make Str based rogues. But at least Dex based rogues are somewhat viable now.
I was inspired by the fact that 4E rogues do all their damage just based on their Dex, and that the game is still quite balanced.
If your DM lets you use 3.5 book you can always take one level of swordsage and the feat that allows you to add dex to damage but only with shadow hand weapons.
This is all in the Tome of battle. Its pretty fun but I've abandoned it all when I bought my pathfinder corerulebook.
The Dervish Dance is one way, but it is limited to scimitars.actually, it's limited to scimitar, one-handed, with absolutely nothing in the off-hand (no two-hander, no dual-wielding, no buckler).
Still, not bad. Didn't know about the feat, so thanks for pointing it out.
It's very restrictive, though. While I don't think it's a good idea to allow two-weapon fighting with it, allowing it with other weapons than the scimitar would be fine. I hope the devs think about such a feat for Ultimate Combat.
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Good Stuff
I like the idea. The Precision Damage bit is very clever.
Personally, I'd do it more like Power Attack: requirements dex 13, BAB +1, and weapon finesse; take a -1 on attacks to add +2 precision damage when wielding a finesseable weapon, +1 to off-hand, +3 to two-hand; BAB +4, and every +4 after, attack penalty increases by -1, bonus increased by +2 (+1 off-hand, +3 two-hand).
Meh, to each his own. Either version is good. I'm not sure both letting both in, though; can someone crunch the numbers?
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Here are two versions of a homebrew feat for this very thing that I am working on. Let me know what you guys think (I play 3.5, but that shouldn't matter...)
Free Hand Master [Combat]
You are adept at fighting with a weapon in one hand while the other is empty.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Weapon Finesse, Base attack bonus +1
Benefit: While wielding a one-handed weapon for which the weapon finesse feat applies in one hand, with nothing in the other, you may apply your Dexterity modifier to damage instead of your Strength modifier. This feat only applies if you are wearing light or no armor, and not using a shield.
--OR--
Free Hand Master [Combat]
You are adept at fighting with a weapon in one hand while the other is empty.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Weapon Finesse, Base attack bonus +1
Benefit: While wielding a one-handed weapon for which the weapon finesse feat applies in one hand, with nothing in the other, you may apply half of your Dexterity modifier to damage in addition to your Strength modifier. This feat only applies if you are wearing light or no armor, and not using a shield. Considering adding this caveat: This damage is considered precision damage.
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I think it's okay as it is now, although a few more feats like Dervish Dance wouldn't hurt.
Dexterity already a lot thinks tied into it. Initiative, AC and Reflex Save. Acrobatics and Disable Device are probably more important than Climb and Swim.
I have seen quite a few characters with low Strength, but Dexterity, together with Constitution is rarely used as a dump stat.
Making the stat even more useful would seem rather unbalancing.
Thanks everyone. I didn't think it was likely, but I thought I'd ask as dex can be swapped in place of strength for almost everything else.
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And hey, there's nothing in the Power Attack writeup that restricts it to strength builds. You need 13 Str and +1 BAB and that's it. Which means Power Attack can be a decent investmen for even Dex-based characters, except for perhaps small races, since it requires a 7(!) to take care of the racial adjustment first. Your attack stat increases you defenses and your damage is based on PA.
A mere 13 Str and a finesseable two-handed weapon gives you a nice damage boost ranging from 3 to 18. That's pretty damned good even taking account of the fact that it requires a rather rare type of weapon. Only Elven Curved Blades, Spiked Chains and Aldori Dueling Swords currently apply, but if you can manage a proficiency somehow, for instance being an Elven Swashbuckler and taking ECB as your extra martial proficiency, it's a decent alternative to juggling with two stats.
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You might want to check this out. It's from some odd publication by paizo.
Piranha Strike (Combat)
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose to take a -1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (-50%) if you are making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4, and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by -1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage. This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
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Tying dex to damage would be too powerful IMO, and since dex would then do about everything. It's better to tie it to charisma or intelligence - both can be motivated, both fit the archetype, and both are decent-but-not-good ability scores to put some points in to begin with.
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That's from the Sargava Companion feat chapter. It's a nifty one, but I kind of wished they'd just made a general "substitute dex to damage with finesseable arms"-feat. I don't think the lesser conversion rate of 2 damage per -1 makes, since you can't use it two-handed, it worthwhile enough to be picked. Maybe if you use Str as a dumb stat.
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That's from the Sargava Companion feat chapter. It's a nifty one, but I kind of wished they'd just made a general "substitute dex to damage with finesseable arms"-feat. I don't think the lesser conversion rate of 2 damage per -1 makes, since you can't use it two-handed, it worthwhile enough to be picked. Maybe if you use Str as a dumb stat.
The issue is that currently, the stats main functions are like this (disregarding class features):
Str - Melee attack, weapon damage.Dex - AC, ranged attack, initiative, reflex save, tons of skills
Con - Hit points, fort save
Int - Skill points, tons of skills
Wis - Will saves, perception
Cha - Social skills, leadership
Weapon Finesse already moves melee attacks to dex, which means dex becomes a quite high-loaded stat - the only thing strength is good for then, is weapon damage. Moving that away from strength into dex means dex becomes the stat to go to for everything offensive, and strength a total dump stat.
Moving damage to Intelligence or Charisma might be solutions since those ability scores are already kind of weak for warrior-type characters, but it still leaves strength as a total dump stat. With Pirhana Strike, you CAN make a viable dex-based fighter-type (viable as in, can contribute meaningfully to combat). You'll still be behind a strength-based fighter in damage, but that's only natural - since you have better saves, better AC, and, more importantly, higher initiative. You're also much better at picking up a ranged weapon if you need to.
Dex-based fighter types aren't that problematic, IMO, unless you run in a very optimized group against encounters that are harder than normal.
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A lot of Str-dumbing goes away if players are made to account for their gear. It's also feat intensive if you want to retain some basic combat viability, meaning having damage and not dropping to Str-draining effects, like Chill Touch, through the first few levels. I agree about Dex being too much of an "All-Stat" to begin with. Relying on it sets you up for a devastating flat-footed status and Reflex saves don't matter as much the other ones, but apart from those Dexterity has just about everything going for it.
Phneri, I'm not so sure rogues apply for Arcane Strike. Sure, the talents are written in the sense of you having a caster level for each talent, but rogues as such do not gain caster levels through their class abilities. I don't think the Feat was intended to work with rogues. However, since you'd allow it for them, would the reading also support Oracles(for instance through Wind mystery invisibility), Monks(abundant step) and Horizon Walkers(some terrain dominances) to be able to pick Arcane Strike. They all gain some arcane ability.
Using Pathfinder material, then no I don't think there is a way to obtain Dex to melee damage.
Firstly, theres the Drow of the Underdark supplement has an alternate fighter class feature called Hit and Run.
You give up proficiency in Heavy Armour and Shields and in return, you get your Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents (must be within 30ft though).
Also...
Shadow Blade feat from the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords that allows you to add Dex to your meele attacks using a Shadow Hand weapon while in a Shadow Hand stance. This requires knowledge of 1 Shadow Hand maneuver and 1 Shadow Hand stance
Also...
There is a feat in the Complete Book of Feats Vol. 1 called Superior Finesse. Requires a Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse, Dex 15 (i believe) and allows you to exchange your Dexterity modifier for damage instead of Strength.
Perhaps instead of trying to modify DEX so much that it almost becomes a stand alone skill, why not try to find a way to boost up STR along with it? For instance, creating a feat that alows you to apply DEX to your DMG, but you must trade your DEX bonus to your STR when figuring AC?
The problem with that is that it just doesn't make much sense. Being strong doesn't make you harder to hit, but being able to position your blade just right (DEX or INT) would do more damage.
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If you and your group allow house rules or homebrews, here's a feat mine created some time ago:
It works for my group. Some can argue it as a feat tax, but I don't think of it that way. It's more representing the time it takes to learn how to best finesse the weapon you wield to maximize damage based on speed and skill. Kinda like how fighters can go down the Weapon Spec/Great weapon Spec and so on to become better with their chosen weapons.
If you and your group allow house rules or homebrews, here's a feat mine created some time ago:
I almost forgot. One of parts of my Improved Weapon Finesse feat had a clause. Negative Str bonuses reduce weapon damage. So dex characters can't completely dump Str.
Skin is no match for a blade. Even a small child with a sharp blade can severly cut or stab a person.
It stands to reason that a well trained person can easily kill someone without ever having to be strong.
I have used "Extra Finesse" or Improved Weapon Finesse or Greater Finesse for a long time and it has never affected the game in an unbalancing way.
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If you and your group allow house rules or homebrews, here's a feat mine created some time ago:
It works for my group. Some can argue it as a feat tax, but I don't think of it that way. It's more representing the time it takes to learn how to best finesse the weapon you wield to maximize damage based on speed and skill. Kinda like how fighters can go down the Weapon Spec/Great weapon Spec and so on to become better with their chosen weapons.
Awesome feat, thanks!
It stands to reason that a well trained person can easily kill someone without ever having to be strong.
And they can. With 11 strength, the average damage of a shortsword is enough to put the average person (commoner 1) into "disabled" status - severely wounded and has a large risk of dying unless they seek medical aid.
I think the idea, too, is high dex goes with things that have sneak attack and broader crit threat ranges - so 'killing with skill rather than brute force' kind of thing.
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It's just that there's very little incentive to build a critical-based character on just Dexterity, since you have just about nothing to multiply with those crits. They need stacking, hard damage to to be devastating. A dex-based critical build with 2 kukris will only get up to speed once the critical-status-causality feats get into play past +11 bab. Before that, you are possibly stuck on 1d4+1(+ weapon training or favored enemy or challenge), which is negligible damage and certainly not enough to warrant he crit build. Now, a falchion or scimitar character with high strength or some buffs to multiply, that's workable. Pure Dex is not.
Really, the only thing that simulates killing stuff in a maelstrom of sharp cuts or a few vital strikes, is sneak attack and so far only three classes get that. For everyone else, killing someone intelligently and with panache means distancing oneself from game mechanics and just being decisive with damage. For instance, I could make a decent Iaijutsu master with the barbarian rage powers only. Enough damage to kill any a normal person with a single hit.
I don't think winning someone with guile and skill requires the hits to be based on dexterity.
I made this feat for my campaign. Between three games going on the the same world we have a rogue, an agent (homebrew class), a monk and a small druid who use this. It isn't broken at all folks.
You are trained in using your agility to deadly effect in melee combat, as opposed to raw strength.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, Base Attack +1
Benefit: You may activate this stance as a swift action that does not provoke. This stance is lost and must be reactivated on your next turn if you run or become incapacitated in someway (stunned, unconsious, paralyzed and so forth). You gain the following benefits while in this stance. With a light weapon, elven curve blade, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Add 1 ½ times your Dexterity modifier to damage when wielding any of these weapons in one hand while nothing occupies the other. While wielding two weapons you only add ½ your Dexterity modifier to damage with your off hand if it is a light weapon. You must be wearing light or no armor and no shield to use this feat. This damage is treated as precision damage.
Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons. You may not activate and automatically lose access to this stance while raging or using flurry of blows.
FAQ: a Str penalty will still reduce your damage while in this stance.
NOTE: None of the characters in my games have Power Attack, but none have a Str below 10. I've made several NPC's that have combined PA with this feat and they are no better than a Str based two hander (slightly less damage, but only a slightly better AC, max Dex on armor can be a beich sometimes).
Overall the view that it's too powerful is completely unsupported, but it's so controversial that Paizo would never create such a feat.
Weapon Finesse already moves melee attacks to dex, which means dex becomes a quite high-loaded stat - the only thing strength is good for then, is weapon damage. Moving that away from strength into dex means dex becomes the stat to go to for everything offensive, and strength a total dump stat.
Of course, RAW means that they take penalties to damage for low strength. If you look at it like taking a shot to the guy's heart, hitting it is massive damage regardless of what you slam into it, but you have to force your weapon through the ribcage, or spear all the way up the abdomine to get to it. The precision is what does the main part of the damage, but if you are scrawny (10 being the average) you are going to have to fight to get it to that place, and that's ignoring their armour. And as mentioned, dealing with armour and weapons alone can be a pain for a high dex character, so those combined should ensure Strength is NEVER a dump stat, in the same way it isn't wise to dump Wisdom.
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You can get Dex mod to attack rolls and CMB, but I can't seem to find a way to get dex mod to damage for melee attacks. Is it possible? I'm asking in particular for a monk, but I'm also interested just in general too.
The Agile enchant. I'm not sure if that allows ALL dex or just the weapons enhancement damage in dex.
You can get Dex mod to attack rolls and CMB, but I can't seem to find a way to get dex mod to damage for melee attacks. Is it possible? I'm asking in particular for a monk, but I'm also interested just in general too.The Agile enchant. I'm not sure if that allows ALL dex or just the weapons enhancement damage in dex.
it allows full dex.
my problem with it, is that it is available as a weapon enchantment but not as a feat.
it should have the option to be available as both.
and monks with an Agile AoMF suck even more because they cannot get the full enhancement and will be perpetually screwed by DR x/alignment, and the -1 to hit and damage on a MAD class that has no way to augment it's attack bonus
the rogue is also fairly MAD and has no way to augment it's attack bonus, it needs wisdom for will saves, constitution for hit points and fortitude saves, dexterity for armor class and initiative, intelligence for skill points, and strength for DPR. if the rogue is a ninja, it needs all these plus Charisma for Ki. so a rogue's attack bonus (especially a ninja's) is lower than even a monk's unless they completely neglect either skills, will saves, or Ki.
what's the name of this feat?There is a feat in the Qadira book for Dex to damage. It is for scimatar only though, Dervish Dance.
Others may know of more feats. Im a pathfinder newb.
Dervish Dance
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat
That's because they don't get it. Instead, they get their class level to damage.
You realize Duelists can get dex to damage on rapiers right?How? I don't see anything about that in the Duelist class.
You might be thinking of the Aldori Swordlord prestige class.
Thread Necromancy to the max.