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So, I just ran an updated Carnival of Tears and one of my players is a monk. And he's starting to do things that are making me question the rules.
So, for instance, there's a point in the module that has a big field of "Mud" which I treated as difficult terrain (double the movement required).
However, he just jumped over it (his Acrobatics skill is astronomical).
Now, I figure this is fine... same thing happened with ice later on. Instead of running over 40 feet of ice, he'd just jump right to the foe and avoid the acrobatics checks to avoid slipping (which he'd invariably pass, anyway).
Am I doing this right? Jumping is just a part of movement, so if he does a "run" full round action to move times 4, inserting a few jumps in there isn't against the rules, right?
One thing to watch out for.
RunYou can run as a full-round action. If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step. When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you're in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.
Since running is a full round action, the penalty to dexterity persists until the monk's next turn. This means that the monk loses AC, and becomes vulnerable to sneak attack. Other than that, if he has the points in acrobatics to pull it off, I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to do it.
Have him jump over an obstacle to take on a heavy hitting rogue, round 1, the rogue uses a full round action, and gets sneak attack on every attack due to him being denied dex. Now the monk is badly injured and trapped in combat with the rogue with the rest of the party stuck on the other side of the obstacle.
uhh, yeah, kill the character for using a skill for its intended use.
Good idea. Makes me glad the GMG is so big and heavy.. makes for a good weapon, in just such a scenario.
Yes, you can jump over the terrain to avoid the penalty for moving through it- unless the terrain effect is higher than what he could jump over. (a briar patch for example, or something like that).
-S
uhh, yeah, kill the character for using a skill for its intended use.
Good idea. Makes me glad the GMG is so big and heavy.. makes for a good weapon, in just such a scenario.Yes, you can jump over the terrain to avoid the penalty for moving through it- unless the terrain effect is higher than what he could jump over. (a briar patch for example, or something like that).
-S
Who said anything about killing him. Put the fear of death into him yes, but you don't have to kill him to do that. Have the bag guy knock him out, then take him as a hostage.
At the end of the day, separating yourself from the rest of your group and putting yourself at a disadvantage(no dex) to engage the bad guy first is NOT a tactically sound decision. If it plays out badly for the player, then so be it.
Since running is a full round action, the penalty to dexterity persists until the monk's next turn.
Not true. Only actions that take one round are like that. Full-round actions begin and end in the same turn.
Not true. Only actions that take one round are like that. Full-round actions begin and end in the same turn.
Since running is a full round action, the penalty to dexterity persists until the monk's next turn.
Yes, but the penalties from that action still persist for the entire round. See charge. Charge is a full round action, but the penalty to AC lasts until your next turn.
Okay, so this all begs a second question... what is the point of the Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps feats? Anyone who takes those will probably have a decent acrobatics... so they can just jump over the terrain instead of wasting a feat to "ignore" it.
Only seems useful in very low caves (can't jump) or so that you can use a five foot step in difficult terrain (which I guess normally you can not).
Okay, so this all begs a second question... what is the point of the Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps feats? Anyone who takes those will probably have a decent acrobatics... so they can just jump over the terrain instead of wasting a feat to "ignore" it.
Only seems useful in very low caves (can't jump) or so that you can use a five foot step in difficult terrain (which I guess normally you can not).
Because there are times where it is a really bad idea to run. Acrobatic Steps can be uses as part of any movement, so you can use it to withdraw from combat without provoking AoO. Nimble moves allows you to take 5 foot steps in difficult terrain.
A great example would be the players fighting an air elemental in the mud. The air elemental can hover above the mud with perfect manuverability. If a players wants to withdraw, charge, etc they are going to have to deal with the difficult terrain. They can jump over the mud to land right next to the elemental, but after that they are in the mud.
Okay, so this all begs a second question... what is the point of the Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps feats? Anyone who takes those will probably have a decent acrobatics... so they can just jump over the terrain instead of wasting a feat to "ignore" it.
Only seems useful in very low caves (can't jump) or so that you can use a five foot step in difficult terrain (which I guess normally you can not).
Also normally a person cannot make a 5ft adjustment in difficult terrain the feats allow for that which can be huge. I full attack and make a 5 ft adj (thanks nimble moves) enemy: I move up and full attack, no actually you dont so get your one shot in so i can FA you next round. :)
beat to the punch by Charender.
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So... the monk is spending a full round action to move over 40 feet of mud? And giving up his dex bonus to pull it off? Thus leaving him unable to attack, very vulnerable to enemies, and very much isolated from the rest of the party?
And your concern is that it's overpowered?
I think you may be reading the acrobatics rules wrong. Relevant text (bold emphasis mine):
Running Jump: For a running jump, the result of your Acrobatics check indicates the distance traveled in the jump (and if the check fails, the distance at which you actually land and fall prone). Halve this result for a standing long jump to determine where you land.
A 40 foot jump is a DC 40 Acrobatics check if the monk uses the run action and he has at least 10 feet of open space to build up speed. If he's just moving or double-moving, the DC is 80.
Assuming a 20th level monk with a 30 dex and skill focus (acrobatics), the monk would still only have a +63 modifier, which means he needs at least a 17 on the die to clear 40 feet. (20 ranks +3 class skill +10 dex +24 from high base speed +6 feat).
I'm going to guess that you and he both missed the "double the DC if not running" bit. Which is easy to do; it only shows up twice, and it's buried in the middle of a paragraph both times.
But yeah, I'm pretty sure that even a 20th level monk isn't supposed to be able to leap a 40 foot wide pit as part of a charge attack and kick a guy on the other side. It's cool, so I'm not against the idea, but it just seems a little too silly.
Okay, so this all begs a second question... what is the point of the Nimble Moves and Acrobatic Steps feats? Anyone who takes those will probably have a decent acrobatics... so they can just jump over the terrain instead of wasting a feat to "ignore" it.
Only seems useful in very low caves (can't jump) or so that you can use a five foot step in difficult terrain (which I guess normally you can not).
5ft steps.
Can't tumble while jumping. (our house rule)
Maybe you're in difficult terrain after jumping in and need to move across 25ft of difficult terrain to get to the next monster. DC to jump it is 25 for a monk-- easy, since he always has a running start. DC for a normal character? 50 since you don't have a running start. Good luck.
I definitely use this tactic as often as possible with high acrobatics characters. Note that there's really only 2 or 3 characters who can do this very well; almost everyone else is screwed after their first like 5ft-10ft leap into difficult terrain and has to slog it out.
The ninja in the playtest definitely has the best chances of doing these kinds of jumps, and has a whole edge on the monk. While the monk can add +20 for a ki point, the ninja just halves distances for jumping and is always treated as if they have a running start. Oh, and they can use a ki point for +20 acrobatics. On the bottom is the rogue, only there because of talents like expert leaper and peerless maneuver.
So, a rogue trying to jump a 50ft chasm? DC 50. No running start? DC 100. Oh, boy. With expert leaper it's DC 50 still, and peerless maneuver lets them roll twice. Hope for a really, really high number on those dice.
A monk trying to jump a 50ft chasm? DC 50. No running start? DC 50. Ki point for +20 to acrobatics, though. Oh, and +12 from their base speed adjustment. So they have a +32 before putting ranks into acrobatics at level 10, and if they have been, they likely have a +45. Well, okay. Easy enough.
A ninja trying to jump a 50ft chasm? DC 50. No running start? DC 50. Over level 10? DC 25. Ki point for +20 if you have the talent; if you don't, a level 10 dex-based ninja (Dex 22) would have like +19-+24 to acrobatics anyways, so you're good. That clause in ninja is absolutely awesome, by the way. 120 foot jump? DC 60. +44 to jump with a ki point at level 10. Let's do this.
Yes, but the penalties from that action still persist for the entire round. See charge. Charge is a full round action, but the penalty to AC lasts until your next turn.Not true. Only actions that take one round are like that. Full-round actions begin and end in the same turn.
Since running is a full round action, the penalty to dexterity persists until the monk's next turn.
Charge is that way because charge says it's that way.
Just like power attack stays on for the whole round (until just before your next turn). Power attack is not a full-round action, but it works with the full-round penalty thing because it says so.
I'm sorry, maybe I confused people by posting two thoughts as one.
He's a monk, so he doesn't need a "running start" once he gets the "high jump" ability.
This monk, whose land speed is 50, was 60 feet from an enemy (30 of which was difficult terrain). He performed two moves (part of this movement was jumping) to land next to the enemy.
I used the "running with multiple jumps" right at the end just as a different example, sorry.
I do now see how those feats can be useful (but still, not very useful).
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One thing to watch out for.
RunYou can run as a full-round action. If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step. When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you're in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.
Since running is a full round action, the penalty to dexterity persists until the monk's next turn. This means that the monk loses AC, and becomes vulnerable to sneak attack. Other than that, if he has the points in acrobatics to pull it off, I see no reason why he shouldn't be able to do it.
Have him jump over an obstacle to take on a heavy hitting rogue, round 1, the rogue uses a full round action, and gets sneak attack on every attack due to him being denied dex. Now the monk is badly injured and trapped in combat with the rogue with the rest of the party stuck on the other side of the obstacle.
Or the monk just gets the run feat, which when combined with the monk ability high jump lets him do so with out any penalties.
The biggest stop with the mud or ice is this:
You can't run across difficult terrain or if you can't see where you're going.
He can run up to the difficult terrain, but not over it. So, no landing and then jumping in the middle of a large field of mud or ice as a run.
That being said, I am surprised that the monk had to do a x4 run to cover the distance. A level 5 human monk can fairly easily make a 33' jump (5 ranks acro, +3 class skill, +5 high-jump monk ability, +20 by spending 1 ki point) without taking dex stat or die roll into effect. If they have at least a +2 mod for dex, they can cover 38' by rolling a 1 on the die. So, a level 5 monk could "standing long jump" that 40' field of ice as a move action, and then still get a hit off when they land.
A 40 foot jump is a DC 40 Acrobatics check if the monk uses the run action and he has at least 10 feet of open space to build up speed. If he's just moving or double-moving, the DC is 80.
I don't think that's right. The rules never mention the run action. They do say "running start", but that just means that you need to move 10 feet before the jump.
And I don't know what level that monk is, but remember that at level 5, they get the "high jump" ability, meaning they're always considered to have a running start.
Assuming a 20th level monk with a 30 dex and skill focus (acrobatics), the monk would still only have a +63 modifier, which means he needs at least a 17 on the die to clear 40 feet. (20 ranks +3 class skill +10 dex +24 from high base speed +6 feat).
At that level, they definitely have running start.
They get:
20 ranks
+ 3 class skill
+10 dex
+ 6 skill focus
+20 level
+24 speed (assuming human monk with a base speed of 90)
=83 (and they can add another +20 with a ki point)
That means that with an average roll, they can clear their base speed in a jump. From a standing jump.
The same usually holds true at lover levels. I played a monk up to level 12 recently, and I usually didn't bother to make jump checks.
I'm going to guess that you and he both missed the "double the DC if not running" bit. Which is easy to do; it only shows up twice, and it's buried in the middle of a paragraph both times.
I'm going to guess that you missed the high jump ability ;-P
But yeah, I'm pretty sure that even a 20th level monk isn't supposed to be able to leap a 40 foot wide pit as part of a charge attack and kick a guy on the other side. It's cool, so I'm not against the idea, but it just seems a little too silly.
But I am. In fact, they can jump twice as far (and more) and kick their enemy in their (usually baffled) face. Considering that they could also do the "Every journey begins and ends with the first step" zen thing and abundant step out of longbow range after hitting the guy again next round, I have no problem with it seeming silly.
The funniest thing I did with my monk was abundant step up a tower in one round and then next round jump most of the way across a castle yard - way up in the air there) to do a flying tackle on a vrock. Grappled him and then pinned him the next round. I fell, too, sure, but the guys with the big, nasty-looking weapons waiting for us on the ground were not MY enemies....
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Stuff
Not sure I buy that.
I have always interpreted "running start" to mean you have to use the run action, which in turn mean you must lose you dexterity for the round is you do not have the run feat.
StuffNot sure I buy that.
I have always interpreted "running start" to mean you have to use the run action, which in turn mean you must lose you dexterity for the round is you do not have the run feat.
I've always read it as the first 10 feet of movement you haven't jumped yet. You take the penalty if you need to jump before you can move 10 feet, as you can't get a little bit of a run before hand. Not referencing a "run" action.
I've always read it as the first 10 feet of movement you haven't jumped yet. You take the penalty if you need to jump before you can move 10 feet, as you can't get a little bit of a run before hand. Not referencing a "run" action.StuffNot sure I buy that.
I have always interpreted "running start" to mean you have to use the run action, which in turn mean you must lose you dexterity for the round is you do not have the run feat.
Then why call it a running start, why not call it a moving start?
Charge is a full round action that you must be able to move 10 feet before you get the bonuses of charging.
For acrobatics, you must run, and you have to move a minimum of 10 feet before you get all of the bonuses for running.
Definately, sounds like FAQ material to me.
I'd have to agree with KaeYoss, I've never in 11 years of 3.0ish rules heard of the Run action specifically being invoked to reduce the DCs on jump checks. While I could see the "running start" now as causing confusion, to me it has always just meant normal movement.In the 3.0 SRD it is "The character must move 20 feet before jumping."
In the 3.5 SRD it is "All Jump DCs given here assume that you get a running start, which requires that you move at least 20 feet in a straight line before attempting the jump."
The 3.5 rules do start to blur things.
The in Pathfinder PRD it is "These DCs double if you do not have at least 10 feet of space to get a running start."
I'm still inclined towards it not requiring a Run action. If at the very least, I want to see PCs jumping about and doing cinematic action. Adding disincentives doesn't make the game any cooler.
I see someone taking a running start as focusing on the jump, and thus them lowering their guard makes perfect sense to me. I just can't see someone making a jump like that without lowering his guard.
If he doesn't want to lower his guard, then he doesn't take a running start, and thus his DC doubles.
Then why call it a running start, why not call it a moving start?
Because it's a running start! That's what you call these things.
I applaud Paizo for not going the MMO way and inventing new words or definitions for words for everything.
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I just want to point out that it's well within the GM's role to add circumstantial penalties to rolls. If the monk is at the edge of the mud and makes a jump check to clear a mud-pit that's fine. If the same monk is waste deep in a bog there should be a circumstantial penalty to his jump check... -4 or maybe as high as -8 depending on how deep in he is in the mud. Likely it won't make a difference in the case of monks with their super jumps but worth mentioning.
Also, there is no reason difficult terrain needs to be confined to the ground. In thick jungles vines and branches may make it difficult terrain to fly and add other penalties to jump checks.
In general though, let the monk shine in situations like this. You shouldn't strive to penalize players for investing in a skill/ ability.
In general though, let the monk shine in situations like this. You shouldn't strive to penalize players for investing in a skill/ ability.
I definitely don't want to penalize him. He doesn't shine that much in combat because his damage is lower than the two brutes in the party and he forgets about his stunning fist pretty frequently.
So anything where he can feel like a superhero is fine with me.
Then why call it a running start, why not call it a moving start?Because it's a running start! That's what you call these things.
I applaud Paizo for not going the MMO way and inventing new words or definitions for words for everything.
Yeah, I'd see a subtle assumption of the Run action being invoked through "running start" as being very poor system design writing on the part of Paizo.
If they wanted the Run action to be invoked then a proper way of writing it would be something like:
"These DCs double if you do not perform a Run action with a minimum of 10 feet of movement before the acrobatics check is made."
The point of the system design key words is that they need to be stated clearly if they are to be triggered and cascade through the system.
Looking at the history of jump from 3.0 and 3.5 makes me think you are probably right, but it is still some really muddy water here.
That and I have no problem with a guy jumping a 100 foot chasm. I have a problem with the guy jumping a 100 foot chasm while dodging arrows in mid air. The latter is a step too far for my willing suspension of disbelief.
That and I have no problem with a guy jumping a 100 foot chasm. I have a problem with the guy jumping a 100 foot chasm while dodging arrows in mid air. The latter is a step too far for my willing suspension of disbelief.
You're joking, right? You find it believable that someone can jump 100 feet, but it's not believable that they can dodge while in mid air?
That and I have no problem with a guy jumping a 100 foot chasm. I have a problem with the guy jumping a 100 foot chasm while dodging arrows in mid air. The latter is a step too far for my willing suspension of disbelief.
Except for the fact that it is the denegrated maligned wuxia influenced monk that is really the only person wiht any real chance of making the 100 ft jump i would agree with you a rogue, fighter, ranger or a barbarian(the Hulk- Jump Good style)would be all jacked looking in air. The Monk I go woo hoo boy/girl you do what you are the undisputed master of.
That and I have no problem with a guy jumping a 100 foot chasm. I have a problem with the guy jumping a 100 foot chasm while dodging arrows in mid air. The latter is a step too far for my willing suspension of disbelief.Except for the fact that it is the denegrated maligned wuxia influenced monk that is really the only person wiht any real chance of making the 100 ft jump i would agree with you a rogue, fighter, ranger or a barbarian(the Hulk- Jump Good style)would be all jacked looking in air. The Monk I go woo hoo boy/girl you do what you are the undisputed master of.
Nah, most of the wuxia stuff has people making lots of smaller hops and jumping off of things they really cannot support their body weight(bouncing on tree branches, your opponents sword, water, etc). If the guy ran across the surface of the mud like running on water, that would be ok to.
100 foot leaps are one step shy of flying. It is the thought of any person in a state of pure projectile motion changing course in mid-air to avoid an attack that I have a problem with.
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Nah, most of the wuxia stuff has people making lots of smaller hops and jumping off of things they really cannot support their body weight(bouncing on tree branches, your opponents sword, water, etc). If the guy ran across the surface of the mud like running on water, that would be ok to.
100 foot leaps are one step shy of flying. It is the thought of any person in a state of pure projectile motion changing course in mid-air to avoid an attack that I have a problem with.
I understand and respect your opinion. However, we are talking about a fantasy game with dragons, faeries, and people who wield magic. =)
I understand and respect your opinion. However, we are talking about a fantasy game with dragons, faeries, and people who wield magic. =)Nah, most of the wuxia stuff has people making lots of smaller hops and jumping off of things they really cannot support their body weight(bouncing on tree branches, your opponents sword, water, etc). If the guy ran across the surface of the mud like running on water, that would be ok to.
100 foot leaps are one step shy of flying. It is the thought of any person in a state of pure projectile motion changing course in mid-air to avoid an attack that I have a problem with.
And archers who can accurately fire 6 arrows in 7 seconds, 2 of those arrows at the same time. I know there is a lot of crazy stuff, but sometimes it is a matter of something being just a half step too far.
he char the op is talking about is doing something the class excells at he should be allowed to do it and feel badass.
I'm a little confused about all the talk of the run maneuver it is in no way required to jump. my lvl 9 monk has +36 before the ki point. with the ki point were looking at 65 foot jumps from a stand still as one move action when take 10 is allowed. I think from a stand still I can hit the roofed of 2nd story buildings but dc40? (I think)
anyhow let him do his thing and hopefully he won't accidentally separate himself and suffer for it.
Actually, it would be more fun to get a running start, hit the mud, and slide into your opponent with a stunning fist to the jibblies, but thats just me.
But I am. In fact, they can jump twice as far (and more) and kick their enemy in their (usually baffled) face. Considering that they could also do the "Every journey begins and ends with the first step" zen thing and abundant step out of longbow range after hitting the guy again next round, I have no problem with it seeming silly.
The funniest thing I did with my monk was abundant step up a tower in one round and then next round jump most of the way across a castle yard - way up in the air there) to do a flying tackle on a vrock. Grappled him and then pinned him the next round. I fell, too, sure, but the guys with the big, nasty-looking weapons waiting for us on the ground were not MY enemies....
Because of you, KaeYoss, I'm considering playing a monk as my next character. :)
I totally agree with those that say you do NOT need to take the run action to make a running jump. That's just silly.
Another thing I often see people miss, is the fact that you can take multiple jumps in a single move. There's nothing that says you can't.
Even a monk might have difficulty jumping 50 feet straight up to the top of a tall tree, but if has 50 foot speed, he can jump from branch to branch all the way to the top in a single move action (provided he succeeds on all the checks).
It takes more Acrobatics checks, but they are all at smaller, more manageable DCs. Armed with this knowledge, I find it surprisingly easy to replicate an Assassin's Creed style character that gets around quite easily.
Two thoughts ($0.01 each):
- The "running start" bit. I too agree that a "running start" is merely taking a couple steps to acquire the required speed for regular jumps. On the other hand, I can remember the Olympic Games where long jumps are made with a looooong running start. So, house rule: taking a real Run action before jumping halves the DC.
- The "avoid arrows while in mid-air" bit. I initially thought "this is a turn-based game" but there is the possibility of Readied actions. Even so, however, people can still flail their arms around while in mid-air, making it even more difficult (not easier) to shoot them. This cancels that, I say.
*beats horse*
I'm fairly sure that the "running start" bit is Paizo's attempt to use descriptive language in an instance where things probably could have adhered to the rules terminology a bit better.
While I applaud their creativity, it sounds much cooler than "move 10 feet before the jump", this is not the first time it has caused confusion because they're creating key words/concepts with pretty common words. This is another instance in the PF rules where proceedures and rules interactions can become muddled due to unimtentionally similar wordings.
Arrows cannot, under normal circumstances, be fired as an AoO. For that reason the only reason you'd want to tumble-jump is if you were doing so over the heads of people who threaten you with melee weaponry; and tumbling can't save you from readied actions at all, since it just negates movement-based AoOs.