I have a couple questions regarding grapples:
1) Are successful Grappling Combat Maneuver checks that are used to apply damage to a target considered "natural attacks" for the sake determining if Rend can be applied?
(A grappler with the Greater Grapple Feat can attempt two grapple checks in one round.)
2) Does the following scenerio sound legal (or have I missed an aspect of a rule or two that would prevent this).
A creature ("Grabber") with rend, grab and 3 claw attacks (and a very respectable CMB) takes a full attack action vs a single target at least one size smaller than itself:
first attack w/ claw hits, claw damage is applied and grab gives Grabber a free grapple check. The Grabber attempts the check at a -20 penalty to leave other limbs free and the check succeeds (the target is now grappled but Grabber is not)
second attack with claw hits target, claw damage and rend damage is applied and the Grabber gets another free grapple check. Since the target was already grappled The Grabber gets a +5 circumstance bonus on this check. The Grabber again opts for to take the -20 penalty to his CMB to leave all limbs free except the one already grappling. The check succeeds and the Grabber pins the target.
third attack with claw hits target, claw damage is applied. The Grabber gets another free grapple check with the same +5 circumstance bonus as before but this time opts to use all limbs for grappling so no -20 penalty is involved. The check succeeds and the Grabber ties the target up.
amscrey wrote:
1) Are successful Grappling Combat Maneuver checks that are used to apply damage to a target considered "natural attacks" for the sake determining if Rend can be applied?
Not sure. For the example crab monster, he's hitting with normal attacks then getting a free grapple via Grab. So the normal attacks would hit and qualify for Rend, the grapple would be irrelevant.
amscrey wrote:
second attack with claw hits target, claw damage and rend damage is applied and the Grabber gets another free grapple check. Since the target was already grappled The Grabber gets a +5 circumstance bonus on this check. The Grabber again opts for to take the -20 penalty to his CMB to leave all limbs free except the one already grappling. The check succeeds and the Grabber pins the target.
Grab only works to start a grapple, and the +5 bonus only applies in subsequent rounds after the target has failed to break. (bold mine)
"Grab (Ex) If a creature with this special attack hits with the indicated attack (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity."
"Grapple: If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds."
amscrey wrote: I have a couple questions regarding grapples:
1) Are successful Grappling Combat Maneuver checks that are used to apply damage to a target considered "natural attacks" for the sake determining if Rend can be applied?
(A grappler with the Greater Grapple Feat can attempt two grapple checks in one round.)
No. Remember that checking to maintain a grapple is different than establishing a grapple. Also notice the language of rend (it requires successful attacks) and the language of the damage grapple action (it inflicts damage without an attack roll).
amscrey wrote: 2) Does the following scenerio sound legal (or have I missed an aspect of a rule or two that would prevent this).
A creature ("Grabber") with rend, grab and 3 claw attacks (and a very respectable CMB) takes a full attack action vs a single target at least one size smaller than itself:
first attack w/ claw hits, claw damage is applied and grab gives Grabber a free grapple check. The Grabber attempts the check at a -20 penalty to leave other limbs free and the check succeeds (the target is now grappled but Grabber is not)
All good up to this point.
amscrey wrote: second attack with claw hits target, claw damage and rend damage is applied and the Grabber gets another free grapple check. Since the target was already grappled The Grabber gets a +5 circumstance bonus on this check. The Grabber again opts for to take the -20 penalty to his CMB to leave all limbs free except the one already grappling. The check succeeds and the Grabber pins the target. It gets sticky here. While you could execute the second grapple attempt (in order to gain the benefits of constrict, if you had it), you would not get the +5 circumstance bonus; that bonus only appears when attempting to maintain a grapple, never when establishing a grapple. (In this corner case, think of the two limbs, each with -20 on the grapple check, as separate instances of grapple, despite the fact that they originate from the same torso.) Since you are only establishing a new grapple, you cannot pin.
The same applies to the third attack.
Thanks for the replies guys, I totally missed the "subsequent rounds" language under the grab description, however I still have some questions relating to combat maneuvers and their relations to "normal" attacks.
This was Tom's reply to my first question about using rend during a grapple: (the bold is mine)
Tom Baumbach wrote: No. Remember that checking to maintain a grapple is different than establishing a grapple. Also notice the language of rend (it requires successful attacks) and the language of the damage grapple action (it inflicts damage without an attack roll). I have not found any wording in the Grapple/Damage Option description that states the option "inflicts damage without an attack roll". It seems clear that an attack roll does not need to be made using the grappler's "normal attack bonus" but the language here does not seem to me to weigh in on the question of whether the grapple maintenance check itself is considered an attack roll.
It seems to me there is some support for considering CM checks in general to be attack rolls: (this thread is now intersecting a bit with another I started: [url=http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/grapplingBlink[/url])
(under Combat->Combat Maneuvers->Performing a Combat Maneuver)
src wrote: When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Tom Baumbach wrote: No. Remember that checking to maintain a grapple is different than establishing a grapple. Also notice the language of rend (it requires successful attacks) and the language of the damage grapple action (it inflicts damage without an attack roll). (the bold is mine)
I recognize now that this difference (between initiating and maintaining) is very important in the context of using grab, but does it also have bearing on the rend question? Is the initiating CM roll considered an attack roll but a maintaining roll not?
It seems to me that the wording in the srd supports the notion that both the initiation check and the maintenance check are CM checks and that all CM checks are attack rolls (just not made with the "normal attack" bonus)
Of course even if the CM check that is made to damage a grappled foe is considered an attack roll I think the question still remains: Does that attack qualify for Rend's "If it hits with two or more natural attacks" requirement.
Read through the grapple rules again, checking out the bolded parts specifically.. in short, to maintain a grapple, you have to use a standard action, and as part of that action you can do certain things... one of those things being damage an opponent = to a single unarmed attack, or with a light or 1 handed weapon. No attack roll needed, as the roll was to maintain the grapple, and the damage is part of that roll if you so choose.
EDIT: wrapping quoted text so it wont be a tower.
srd wrote: Grapple
As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. If you do not have Improved Grapple, grab, or a similar ability, attempting to grapple a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. Humanoid creatures without two free hands attempting to grapple a foe take a –4 penalty on the combat maneuver roll. If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices). If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails). Although both creatures have the grappled condition, you can, as the creature that initiated the grapple, release the grapple as a free action, removing the condition from both you and the target. If you do not release the grapple, you must continue to make a check each round, as a standard action, to maintain the hold. If your target does not break the grapple, you get a +5 circumstance bonus on grapple checks made against the same target in subsequent rounds. Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Move: You can move both yourself and your target up to half your speed. At the end of your movement, you can place your target in any square adjacent to you. If you attempt to place your foe in a hazardous location, such as in a wall of fire or over a pit, the target receives a free attempt to break your grapple with a +4 bonus.
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Appendix 2). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If you are grappling the target, you can attempt to tie him up in ropes, but doing so requires a combat maneuver check at a –10 penalty. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target’s CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check
Ah, I get it. Lets see:
Grapple: Once you are grappling an opponent, a successful check allows you to continue grappling the foe, and also allows you to perform one of the following actions (as part of the standard action spent to maintain the grapple).
Damage: You can inflict damage to your target equal to your unarmed strike, a natural attack, or an attack made with armor spikes or a light or one-handed weapon. This damage can be either lethal or nonlethal.
Rend (Ex) If it hits with two or more natural attacks in 1 round, a creature with the rend special attack can cause tremendous damage by latching onto the opponent's body and tearing flesh. This attack deals an additional amount of damage, but no more than once per round.
I guess that I would say if Crabber uses his greater-grapple double move action maintains to deal damage with his claws, and hits with both claws, he would get rend damage. I think it falls pretty soundly in the "Ask the DM" category, though.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Provided a creature can make multiple grapple attempts in the round, and damages the creature the appropriate number of times with the rend weapon, they ABSOLUTELY CAN do rend damage as well. After all, grapple checks and other combat maneuvers are attack rolls.
This is a fringe case, however, as there isn't really a monster with greater grapple AND a 2 claw rend unless you stat one up.
EDIT: IF you guys are talking about a crab, aren't they mindless vermin and therefore ineligible for feats?
If the creature had the grab ability, and took a -20 on his grapple check to maintain, he could full attack with everything but the limb used for grab. It seems like that is what you are gunning for.
Ravingdork wrote: EDIT: IF you guys are talking about a crab, aren't they mindless vermin and therefore ineligible for feats? I used name "Grabber" to represent a creature with rend, grab and 3 claw attacks in my example. Thinking about Eidolon builds is what led me to my original questions posted in this thread (and some others that I have posted recently) but I would guess that any creature with rend could be advanced to have the 3 Feats needed.
Ravingdork wrote: This is a fringe case, however, as there isn't really a monster with greater grapple AND a 2 claw rend unless you stat one up. With summoners part of the official rules it might not be fringe anymore. Sure, it won't happen until the Eidolon gets 3 feats, but they seem like 3 good feats for Eidolons to take to me. (at least bipeds)
Ravingdork wrote: After all, grapple checks and other combat maneuvers are attack rolls. Are they? This question arose in my other thread as well. As I said above the language in the Combat->Combat Maneuvers portion of the srd encourages me to believe this but I have not heard any one else weigh in solidly on this yet and it seems to me some people are uncomfortable with this ruling. Under this ruling true strike can be used for a Combat Maneuver, correct?
EDIT: Ravingdork dork responded to essentially the same question as I had posted it in another thread:http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/path finderRPG/rules/grapplingBlink
Sorry for bridging threads.
Does anyone disagree and feel CM checks are not attacks? (I felt that was the implication of some of the posts I saw)
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
From the Combat Maneuver section in the Combat Chapter:
"When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll and add your CMB in place of your normal attack bonus. Add any bonuses you currently have on attack rolls due to spells, feats, and other effects. These bonuses must be applicable to the weapon or attack used to perform the maneuver. The DC of this maneuver is your target's Combat Maneuver Defense. Combat maneuvers are attack rolls, so you must roll for concealment and take any other penalties that would normally apply to an attack roll."
Can't get any clearer than that my friend.
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