I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?
And there I thought you were thinking about something RPwise...
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?And there I thought you were thinking about something RPwise...
Nope, got that covered.
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?And there I thought you were thinking about something RPwise...
Me too.
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?
mummy rot and other plagues
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?
You are going to have a hard time with this, because its just how the class is designed. Of all the stats, Charisma does the least for the Fighter. (Unless the fighter is doing something fairly different, like picking up Use Magic Device as a skill or something.)
Every class has abilities that are keyed to it, and others that aren't. Wizards need Intelligence, Clerics need Wisdom, etc.
Are you seeking out ways to punish the wizard for having dumped Strength? Or the cleric for dumping Dex?
I'd think you'd have more to worry about as a DM than what your player's dump stats are.
I hope I'm not coming across as too critical, I'm not trying to be. But I just don't think this should really be a concern. If its a RP thing then yes there are issues with that. But the fighters having low Cha? Thats pretty standard. If they want to play martial characters with high to medium Cha they would probably play a different class that might get something out of the ability.
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?You are going to have a hard time with this, because its just how the class is designed. Of all the stats, Charisma does the least for the Fighter. (Unless the fighter is doing something fairly different, like picking up Use Magic Device as a skill or something.)
Every class has abilities that are keyed to it, and others that aren't. Wizards need Intelligence, Clerics need Wisdom, etc.
Are you seeking out ways to punish the wizard for having dumped Strength? Or the cleric for dumping Dex?
I'd think you'd have more to worry about as a DM than what your player's dump stats are.
I hope I'm not coming across as too critical, I'm not trying to be. But I just don't think this should really be a concern. If its a RP thing then yes there are issues with that. But the fighters having low Cha? Thats pretty standard. If they want to play martial characters with high to medium Cha they would probably play a different class that might get something out of the ability.
Dumpage is NOT necessary. You could have something like 9 or more in everything, but I'm pretty sure he is talking about a guy with 7 or lower Cha...
And the guy with low str or con already has a lot of problems, thing is, people dump mostly charisma, cause they think nothing bad can come of it, I hate that.
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?
Why should I not make it a dump stat as a fighter? Do you make casters have a high strength?
With that aside how much a stat is dumped normally depends on what ability score points they have to play with. What point buy does your group use? If they get 25 they can be good at fighting and still put a 10 into charisma. If they only get to use a 15 point buy then I would drop it to an 8 or 7 before racial modifiers come into play.
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I use Charisma Penalties and Dirty Looks from KQ. Works like a charm.
I am sure there are some poison mists that deal charisma damage, fortunately warriors have a good fortitude save overall.
Chaos Beast, if I am not mistaken requires charisma checks to hold your shape together.
An intelligent weapon might cause a personality conflict, or just not accept a wielder with low charisma and refuses to use his special powers for him.
Unfavorable reactions from npc's is the main thing though.
Turn them into undead for a session or two and see them cry over their low hitpoints.
Some kinds of insanity drain charisma I think, curses might lower it too.
I would not make a big deal out of it though, I play in a campaign where wisdom was the low ability of choice rather than charisma, it isnt really better. Especially when people decide to roleplay their wisdom.
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?
Well, if you're using point buy, don't let them take less than 10 in any stat (before racial mods). Done and done. :-) Of course, the optimizers will hate you, but haters gotta hate...
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?Well, if you're using point buy, don't let them take less than 10 in any stat (before racial mods). Done and done. :-) Of course, the optimizers will hate you, but haters gotta hate...
My general point buy rule is that you can't have any stat less than 8 after racial modifiers are applied.
If you want to roll dice, then that's fine too, but even then I would recommend against playing with any stat lower than an 8. Including charisma. Negative charisma is going to hurt characters in my worlds because they will eventually have to interact with other characters or creatures who will take advantage of their own charisma to punish the low-charisma character. One area in particular that they will suffer is in haggling and purchasing things.
Just tell them that you've got control issues and they would be miserable playing with you?
I'm not really sure why you would ever need to ask for a good way to 'get' a player for doing something you don't like. As a GM, I can say with utmost certainty that you should never need to 'find a way' to make someone suffer for an utterly arbitrary reason. It's what we do for a living.
That said, if you're still that desperate, just start making lightning bolts randomly fall on top of characters for being uncharismatic. Roll your charisma to not die seems perfect for the situation, since apparently god hates people with low charismas.
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?Well, if you're using point buy, don't let them take less than 10 in any stat (before racial mods). Done and done. :-) Of course, the optimizers will hate you, but haters gotta hate...
My general point buy rule is that you can't have any stat less than 8 after racial modifiers are applied.
If you want to roll dice, then that's fine too, but even then I would recommend against playing with any stat lower than an 8. Including charisma. Negative charisma is going to hurt characters in my worlds because they will eventually have to interact with other characters or creatures who will take advantage of their own charisma to punish the low-charisma character. One area in particular that they will suffer is in haggling and purchasing things.
What point buy do you use? If it is 15, and I am a melee type I would take my chances with the dice.
What point buy do you use? If it is 15, and I am a melee type I would take my chances with the dice.
Well, this is my first Pathfinder campaign and I am using a 15 point buy, since that was listed as "standard fantasy". I might modify that for future campaigns if I feel the characters who used the point buy are ineffective.
Since I'm rolling up all my major NPCs using the same point buy and same rule though, right now I'm not seeing any reason to change. The NPCs I am creating seem completely playable and competent to me.
Hold on, hold on. So, if having cha7 creates all these negative consequences, by the same logic, if I make a character with cha14, I'd be swimming in hot chicks, everyone wants to give me discounts, the clouds move aside to illuminate me and not rain on me?
Because, you know, Cha7 = -2. That is inversely the IDENTICAL modifier to how supremely awesome cha14 is (+2).
I can only imagine what a super-star you automatically become if you get a 18+ in cha. Every woman in the land must be screaming like teenage fangirls once you come within 30 feet.
This is what I hate about the whole "punish the Cha dumpers!" bull-crap.
What point buy do you use? If it is 15, and I am a melee type I would take my chances with the dice.Well, this is my first Pathfinder campaign and I am using a 15 point buy, since that was listed as "standard fantasy". I might modify that for future campaigns if I feel the characters who used the point buy are ineffective.
Since I'm rolling up all my major NPCs using the same point buy and same rule though, right now I'm not seeing any reason to change. The NPCs I am creating seem completely playable and competent to me.
My point is that forcing the PC's to use a certain ability score is no realistic. There are people with ability scores below 10, and forcing them to have it above 10 before modifiers makes players not want to use certain races. Dwarf be gone. If the players know you push social encounters then you should let them take their chances. I push social and combat, but I have players ignore combat relevant stats. I did not agree, but they are happy despite my worry that they would be in constant danger of death. As far as buying items I would just let another PC buy the items for me. It is no different than having someone stronger than you perform a physical task for you.
PS:To be clear my issue is not with 15 point buy. It is with 15 point buy + "must be 10 after racial modifier". That means you have lost 2 points at the beginning to counteract the race, meaning they(the pc's) really only have 13 point buy.
edit:changed tack to task
This is what I hate about the whole "punish the Cha dumpers!" bull-crap.
The perceived problem is that CHA has the least negative consequences for dumping. INT loses you skill points, WIS loses you Will saves, DEX loses you AC and Reflex saves, STR loses you attack and damage, CON costs you HP and Fortitude saves...and CHA loses you what, exactly?
Given that all stats cost the same in point buy, that's a serious flaw in the game design. The solution would be to make CHA more significant by giving an extra advantage associated with CHA. But what?
Monster with Charisma drain.
My point is that forcing the PC's to use a certain ability score is no realistic. There are people with ability scores below 10, and forcing them to have it above 10 before modifiers makes players not want to use certain races. Dwarf be gone.
I think people were proposing the idea of 'not below 10 before modifiers'. Being a dwarf costs you nothing, you just put no points in CHA, making it 10, which gets adjusted down to 8 after racial. What it does do is make for more stereotypically heroic characters with no glaring flaws. Usually people stat dump for min/max reasons anyways - sure, there are exceptions, but that's the general rule...
PS:To be clear my issue is not with 15 point buy. It is with 15 point buy + "must be 10 after racial modifier". That means you have lost 2 points at the beginning to counteract the race, meaning they(the pc's) really only have 13 point buy.
Nobody was proposing this, I think.
My point is that forcing the PC's to use a certain ability score is no realistic. There are people with ability scores below 10, and forcing them to have it above 10 before modifiers makes players not want to use certain races. Dwarf be gone.I think people were proposing the idea of 'not below 10 before modifiers'. Being a dwarf costs you nothing, you just put no points in CHA, making it 10, which gets adjusted down to 8 after racial. What it does do is make for more stereotypically heroic characters with no glaring flaws. Usually people stat dump for min/max reasons anyways - sure, there are exceptions, but that's the general rule...
Nobody was proposing this, I think.
PS:To be clear my issue is not with 15 point buy. It is with 15 point buy + "must be 10 after racial modifier". That means you have lost 2 points at the beginning to counteract the race, meaning they(the pc's) really only have 13 point buy.
I think I combined both posters comments by accident.
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?You are going to have a hard time with this, because its just how the class is designed. Of all the stats, Charisma does the least for the Fighter. (Unless the fighter is doing something fairly different, like picking up Use Magic Device as a skill or something.)
Every class has abilities that are keyed to it, and others that aren't. Wizards need Intelligence, Clerics need Wisdom, etc.
Are you seeking out ways to punish the wizard for having dumped Strength? Or the cleric for dumping Dex?
I'd think you'd have more to worry about as a DM than what your player's dump stats are.
I hope I'm not coming across as too critical, I'm not trying to be. But I just don't think this should really be a concern. If its a RP thing then yes there are issues with that. But the fighters having low Cha? Thats pretty standard. If they want to play martial characters with high to medium Cha they would probably play a different class that might get something out of the ability.
Not critical at all....I just want some ideas on how to exploit a low charisma. This is not for malicious purposes but only for my information & everyone else as well. The title of my post may be misleading...can I rewrite it? ;)
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?
Aside from providing an intelligent weapon that the fighter would love to have but doesn't want to be wielded by someone ugly, the answer is "you don't, you make them punish themselves". I'm running an XCrawl game now, where the characters are on tv, and have fans, and all, that. If they dumpster charisma, they grace a harder time earning fame, so they don't get sponsorship deals, have less positive a reaction from thebfans, and so on. My players knew this going in, so if they dumptated charisma, it was knowing theyd be making this aspect of th game harder on themselves.
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?You are going to have a hard time with this, because its just how the class is designed. Of all the stats, Charisma does the least for the Fighter. (Unless the fighter is doing something fairly different, like picking up Use Magic Device as a skill or something.)
Every class has abilities that are keyed to it, and others that aren't. Wizards need Intelligence, Clerics need Wisdom, etc.
Are you seeking out ways to punish the wizard for having dumped Strength? Or the cleric for dumping Dex?
I'd think you'd have more to worry about as a DM than what your player's dump stats are.
I hope I'm not coming across as too critical, I'm not trying to be. But I just don't think this should really be a concern. If its a RP thing then yes there are issues with that. But the fighters having low Cha? Thats pretty standard. If they want to play martial characters with high to medium Cha they would probably play a different class that might get something out of the ability.
Dumpage is NOT necessary. You could have something like 9 or more in everything, but I'm pretty sure he is talking about a guy with 7 or lower Cha...
And the guy with low str or con already has a lot of problems, thing is, people dump mostly charisma, cause they think nothing bad can come of it, I hate that.
PERFECTLY SAID! In my game I allow one or two two for ones ( 2 for 1 ) and they almost always choose to dump charisma into the negatives. I have a character who is a half orc barbarian with a 5 charisma! lol.
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?Why should I not make it a dump stat as a fighter? Do you make casters have a high strength?
With that aside how much a stat is dumped normally depends on what ability score points they have to play with. What point buy does your group use? If they get 25 they can be good at fighting and still put a 10 into charisma. If they only get to use a 15 point buy then I would drop it to an 8 or 7 before racial modifiers come into play.
We roll 4d6 and get a 2 for 1. Its pretty high powered but thats what we chose to do. I'm only asking this question b/c I and maybe others would like to know what in the D&D universe debilitates Charisma? We all know what cripples str, dex or con but not much out there for charisma. Lets not get into a discussion on the logic of dumping charisma is your a fighter type or strength if your a spell caster.
I use Charisma Penalties and Dirty Looks from KQ. Works like a charm.
LOVE IT!!! lol.
I'm only asking this question b/c I and maybe others would like to know what in the D&D universe debilitates Charisma? We all know what cripples str, dex or con but not much out there for charisma.
Stop a moment and ask yourself why there isn't much that cripples charisma before you set to punishing low charisma.
If you have a half orc character with 5 charisma it means he rolled a 5 with 4d6 1's are 2's? That's not even possible, minimum would be 6. Ask yourself would you rather he have 5 int, 5 wisdom, or 5 dex instead? What else is going to do. He has to take the penalty to intimidate and other skill checks instead. Punishing the most obviously unlucky guy in your game group is not attacking a power gamer or a min-maxer, its kicking a guy that's already down. Heck he rolled below possible.
I'm not really sure why you would ever need to ask for a good way to 'get' a player for doing something you don't like. As a GM, I can say with utmost certainty that you should never need to 'find a way' to make someone suffer for an utterly arbitrary reason. It's what we do for a living.
That said, if you're still that desperate, just start making lightning bolts randomly fall on top of characters for being uncharismatic. Roll your charisma to not die seems perfect for the situation, since apparently god hates people with low charismas.
Wow, I guess the "How to get them" touched a sore nerve? It was meant to be a little funny.
This is not at all to "Get" anyone. Its simply to find out what is out there in the wide world of D&D. Call it expanding my D&D knowledge. That is all, so I apologize to all the MIN/MAXERS for hurting their feelings with my "how to get them" title. ;) Love you guys with your low charisma leading the party through every NPC interaction. (Kidding) LOL.
I'm wondering how a DM can make Fighter types think twice about making Charisma their dump stat. Any ideas on Charisma draining effects from creatures, spells, effects, ect...ect..?
Stop being antagonistic towards your players. Charismia is a dump stat, fine. You don't roll strait 18's on a character , the low rolls have to go somewhere and everything else is more useful.
Low roll has to goo somewhere, BUT if you are using point builds, then what happens, eventually is every fighter is built the same, min/max. It gets old.
thats why we moved back to dice rolling and away from the point build, because, after a while, every character of a certain class had the same stats.
Low roll has to goo somewhere, BUT if you are using point builds, then what happens, eventually is every fighter is built the same, min/max. It gets old.
thats why we moved back to dice rolling and away from the point build, because, after a while, every character of a certain class had the same stats.
The same feats or the same ability sores. The ability score issue is not solved by rolling. I am still going to pump STR and dump CHA. I don't see how the rolling affects having enough imagination to play a different fighter either. Are the games so hard that only the builds have a chance to survive, because if not having a slightly weaker build would allow for versatility and offer a change of pace.
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Fighters DO get something out of Charisma: followers and hirelings. You could try pointing that out beforehand and discussing whether your players will ever want to be leaders in the game-world. Unfortunately, that's usually not enough to motivate people.
In my experience, it really only becomes a problem when you have someone with a low CHA PC role-playing somebody who's too charming. Mechanically, I really don't see anything wrong with it.
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PERFECTLY SAID! In my game I allow one or two two for ones ( 2 for 1 ) and they almost always choose to dump charisma into the negatives. I have a character who is a half orc barbarian with a 5 charisma! lol.
And the guy with low str or con already has a lot of problems, thing is, people dump mostly charisma, cause they think nothing bad can come of it, I hate that.
Well, Charisma is not a requirement for most sewer digging operations... i'm pretty sure that you don't need charisma when you're sloshing through a swamp either. Same goes for mountain climbing.
You want to ding them for charisma? when they come to a town, ask them what their plans are. If they want an audience with the lord right away, with ripped/torn clothes and full of goblin bloodstains, don't always roleplay the lord as a bon-vivant who goes "Ha! my lads, how I wish I would have my youth again to smite the filth that hides in dark holes!" because chances are that the lord is a noble and spent his life with a silver spoon (regardless of him having combat ability or not, he will definitely "look down" on any PC that is not dressed the part, high level or not, because that noble has been raised that way... to him, anyone with a stench is some kind of servant at best, or a wet nurse, or some kind of, eeeeuuuuu!, tradespeople... even his grooms or ladies in waiting have the sense to take a daily bath and wear fragrances that are pleasing (i.e. they have, roughly, been trained in achieving a certain level of hygiene that is the equivalent of most modern people -- anyone not in the direct employ of a noble or not in their court can, if generous, be expected to bathe perhaps only once a week, and that's assuming the presence and abundance of local water sources)
It depends on how low you mean by a dump stat. 8 is well within the range of normal, as many people in real life tend to take a -1 on all their interactions with other people; it doesn't really cripple them, it just means that they tend not to be particularly social. Anything lower than that is when you start running into problems, though they are not really insurmountable until you get down to 5.
I'm only asking this question b/c I and maybe others would like to know what in the D&D universe debilitates Charisma? We all know what cripples str, dex or con but not much out there for charisma.Stop a moment and ask yourself why there isn't much that cripples charisma before you set to punishing low charisma.
If you have a half orc character with 5 charisma it means he rolled a 5 with 4d6 1's are 2's? That's not even possible, minimum would be 6. Ask yourself would you rather he have 5 int, 5 wisdom, or 5 dex instead? What else is going to do. He has to take the penalty to intimidate and other skill checks instead. Punishing the most obviously unlucky guy in your game group is not attacking a power gamer or a min-maxer, its kicking a guy that's already down. Heck he rolled below possible.
Two for ones are when a players takes 2 from a stat and adds 1 to another stat. He did this twice, reducing his charisma by -4 to add +2 to str. In addition he takes a -2 to charisma b/c he is a half orc.
Keep in mind, my intentions are not to punish anyone. If I want to punish someone I would be a jerk and just work "DM Magic" on them...which I have never, EVER done. Not cool at all. Aside fromthe Chaos Beast that reduces charisma what else is out there for PC's to worry about?
Since there seems to be some confusion, let me repeat my current rules for building characters for my first Pathfinder campaign.
15 point buy with no ability score lower than an 8 after racial modifiers.
For the individual who read that as "no score lower than a 10" I will point out that is not accurate. You can have multiple scores lower than 10. Five of them in fact, if you want to. But none lower than 8.
For the individual who said this is unfair to dwarves, it is odd to me that two of my players have chosen to play dwarves and are using the point buy system.
For anyone who has said that a 15 point buy is too low, all I can say is that the game designers who created, published and support this game have made that the "standard fantasy" setting. Somehow I managed to think that means "standard fantasy" was designed to be a 15 point buy. I'm pretty literal that way sometimes.
And as I said, I've built about a dozen characters now with the 15 point buy, including wizards, rogues, sorcerers, bards, monks, clerics and a druid and so far all of them seem quite playable and effective to me on paper. I'll see how they turn out in game, but at least for now they appear to be totally effective. All of the spellcasters are able to benefit from all the normal bonus spells, all of the melee characters have managed to have level-appropriate AC and to hit bonuses and all of the players who need two or even three decent stats have ended up with two or three decent stats.
I have come to conclude that there are people who believe that if your melee character can't scrape together an 18 and at least two 16s for the physical stats that they just aren't worth playing. I don't agree with this at all. Besides all the ways to boost stats with magic items, there are dozens of ways to buff characters to increase their stats for critical fights. That's always been, to me, one of the key aspects of the game.
Since there seems to be some confusion, let me repeat my current rules for building characters for my first Pathfinder campaign.
15 point buy with no ability score lower than an 8 after racial modifiers.
For the individual who read that as "no score lower than a 10" I will point out that is not accurate. You can have multiple scores lower than 10. Five of them in fact, if you want to. But none lower than 8.
For the individual who said this is unfair to dwarves, it is odd to me that two of my players have chosen to play dwarves and are using the point buy system.
For anyone who has said that a 15 point buy is too low, all I can say is that the game designers who created, published and support this game have made that the "standard fantasy" setting. Somehow I managed to think that means "standard fantasy" was designed to be a 15 point buy. I'm pretty literal that way sometimes.
And as I said, I've built about a dozen characters now with the 15 point buy, including wizards, rogues, sorcerers, bards, monks, clerics and a druid and so far all of them seem quite playable and effective to me on paper. I'll see how they turn out in game, but at least for now they appear to be totally effective. All of the spellcasters are able to benefit from all the normal bonus spells, all of the melee characters have managed to have level-appropriate AC and to hit bonuses and all of the players who need two or even three decent stats have ended up with two or three decent stats.
I have come to conclude that there are people who believe that if your melee character can't scrape together an 18 and at least two 16s for the physical stats that they just aren't worth playing. I don't agree with this at all. Besides all the ways to boost stats with magic items, there are dozens of ways to buff characters to increase their stats for critical fights. That's always been, to me, one of the key aspects of the game.
I am the dwarf defender, and I got your statement mixed up with another posters who did say no lower than a 10 after racial modifiers, but I cleared that up a few post ago, so your rules are not an issue, not with me anyway.
The solution would be to make CHA more significant by giving an extra advantage associated with CHA. But what?
Make it more like a Luck stat. It increases critical range, or buys off fumbles, or crits on the person, or is at 1/2 mod for across-the-board +/-, or something of that ilk.
EDIT: Though, a "harder" or more thorough application of the existing rules (reaction table) would probably do it, it's just generally not where people are at.
It's probably been said but it's easier to get players to your side if you offer a reward of they do, rather than punishing them if they don't. If you give tangible benefits to players who make characters with a higher charisma people will think twice before dumping it. Of course, then you have to worry about people who play bards and sorcerers. Are you punishing a sorcerer for having a low strength alongside the fighter with the low charisma?
It depends on how low you mean by a dump stat. 8 is well within the range of normal, as many people in real life tend to take a -1 on all their interactions with other people; it doesn't really cripple them, it just means that they tend not to be particularly social. Anything lower than that is when you start running into problems, though they are not really insurmountable until you get down to 5.
Looks like you get to be the voice of reason.;-) You're right, 8 isn't "Too Low" for a character, and easily countered by skill ranks where needed. It just gets tiresome when every melee character (sans Paladins) automatically buys back CHA to get 'one more point' of ever-precious STR.
For point buy especially, I tend to look at it the opposite way. Going from 16 to 17 costs a lot of points (3 to be exact), those 3 points could get another stat from 12 to a 14. While in the long run that 17 might be the better investment, in the short term that 14 will probably help you stay alive to reach the long term. And stat dumps hurt you the worst at the low end, where you don't have skills or magical items to compensate, which is probably why I avoid them. I want my characters to survive the lower levels, not plan for their eventual 15th level awesomeness.
It's probably been said but it's easier to get players to your side if you offer a reward of they do, rather than punishing them if they don't. If you give tangible benefits to players who make characters with a higher charisma people will think twice before dumping it. Of course, then you have to worry about people who play bards and sorcerers. Are you punishing a sorcerer for having a low strength alongside the fighter with the low charisma?
Low STR is self-punishing. Low anything but CHA is self-punishing, actually.
It's probably been said but it's easier to get players to your side if you offer a reward of they do, rather than punishing them if they don't. If you give tangible benefits to players who make characters with a higher charisma people will think twice before dumping it. Of course, then you have to worry about people who play bards and sorcerers. Are you punishing a sorcerer for having a low strength alongside the fighter with the low charisma?Low STR is self-punishing. Low anything but CHA is self-punishing, actually.
What is self punishing about a low strength sorcerer or wizard that isn't also self-punishing for a fighter with low charisma? That they can't carry as much? Even if your game includes encumbrance, which many do not, what sort of things do those characters have to weigh them down? At least a wizard needs a spellbook, a sorcerer doesn't even need that.
Just be sure that they are roleplaying their low CHA and that your NPCs in the game world react accordingly, and it will all sort itself out. You don't need to go out of your way to punish anyone who creates a character with a dump stat, the game will take care of that for you.
Looks like you get to be the voice of reason.;-) You're right, 8 isn't "Too Low" for a character, and easily countered by skill ranks where needed. It just gets tiresome when every melee character (sans Paladins) automatically buys back CHA to get 'one more point' of ever-precious STR.
For point buy especially, I tend to look at it the opposite way. Going from 16 to 17 costs a lot of points (3 to be exact), those 3 points could get another stat from 12 to a 14. While in the long run that 17 might be the better investment, in the short term that 14 will probably help you stay alive to reach the long term. And stat dumps hurt you the worst at the low end, where you don't have skills or magical items to compensate, which is probably why I avoid them. I want my characters to survive the lower levels, not plan for their eventual 15th level awesomeness.
It can get tiresome, but as long as they don't buy back those points and than lower it even further with racial penalties, I don't think too many people will honestly say anything. I personally don't see the desperate need for 17's or higher myself, but others do, and it is a legitimate way to build a character, however tiresome and blatant min/maxing it may be. Especially in a 15 point buy, you will see fighters, wizards, and other single attribute classes that have no business adventuring assuming that the DM wouldn't possibly kill them before they can mitigate all of their weaknesses.