Animal Shaman Wildshaping?

[xn0o0cl3]

Animal shamans gain the ability to use wildshape at their druid level +2 for their respective animal, while taking a -2 to anything else. I'm kind of confused as to what exactly this affects and why it is useful. From what I can tell the only thing that is level dependent in wild shape is the level of beast shape you can use. However, this means that the ability works at level 6 when animal shamans get the ability, increasing their wild shape to beast shape III rather than beast shape II, but after level 8 when beast shape no longer increases, all this ability does is hinder you.

This raises another issue: the bird shaman, for example, gains the benefit of the increased wild shape level when turning into eagles or rocs. Rocs are gargantuan, a size category which wild shape doesn't grant access to. Is this to say that you can use wild shape to turn into a large category roc, as per the druid animal companion, or a huge category roc? Can druids alter the size of ANY animal they wish to turn into?

I'd like to think I'm just missing something about wild shape, but this animal shaman ability seems fairly pointless. Could someone enlighten me? Please?

[MinstrelintheGallery]

xn0o0cl3 wrote:

Animal shamans gain the ability to use wildshape at their druid level +2 for their respective animal, while taking a -2 to anything else. I'm kind of confused as to what exactly this affects and why it is useful. From what I can tell the only thing that is level dependent in wild shape is the level of beast shape you can use. However, this means that the ability works at level 6 when animal shamans get the ability, increasing their wild shape to beast shape III rather than beast shape II, but after level 8 when beast shape no longer increases, all this ability does is hinder you.

This raises another issue: the bird shaman, for example, gains the benefit of the increased wild shape level when turning into eagles or rocs. Rocs are gargantuan, a size category which wild shape doesn't grant access to. Is this to say that you can use wild shape to turn into a large category roc, as per the druid animal companion, or a huge category roc? Can druids alter the size of ANY animal they wish to turn into?

I'd like to think I'm just missing something about wild shape, but this animal shaman ability seems fairly pointless. Could someone enlighten me? Please?

This ability affects more than just the power and size of your wildshapes. It also affects the time spent wildshaping and times per day wildshaping.

For Example: When a Cat Shaman hits level 6 he can wildshape, and when he wildshapes into a cat this ability functions as a druid level 8- that is, he can do it three times a day, eight hours each transforming into a cat size tiny-huge. If he wants to wildshape into anything else, he is considered to be druid level 4- that is, He can do it once a day, as any small or large animal, for four hours.

This means a sixth level Cat Shaman can wildshape three times per day, but two of those can only be a wildshape into a cat, and each time he wildshapes into a cat it lasts eight hours and can be any size, but if he wildshapes into anything else it's only for four hours and has the limitations of a fourth level druid.

This page has this subject described in detail, including comments from the person who created the druid's archetypes.

The big weakness of wildshape as a whole is that there aren't enough huge animals, in fact, I'm not sure if any animal shamans have a huge transformations (maybe snake, from the Bestiary 2) so this ability is kid of a waste. (the only good huge transformation I've found is the allosaurus from the bestiary 2, so no biggie there).

[E I]

Has it been said anywhere that a huge version of that creature needs to exist for you to wildshape into it? For example, a lion shaman at level 6 could just choose to wild shape into a huge dire tiger, scaling up the attack dice of his attacks appropriately, no?

[Cartigan]

xn0o0cl3 wrote:

and why it is useful.

It isn't. There aren't enough animals to use due to the replacing a number of animals with templates of other animals and then not allowing templates to be used for polymorphing and then later you aren't going to be using any animals when you wildshape. So once you exceed the levels where animals are good, all your wildshaping will be done at level -2.

[Cult of Vorg]

I thought this was handled by the spell being a buff now, use the stats of the higher level spell with the abilities limitted by the base form.

[Paul Watson]

Cult of Vorg wrote:

I thought this was handled by the spell being a buff now, use the stats of the higher level spell with the abilities limitted by the base form.

Most people understand it to mean that the buff is determined by the size of creature you become.

[Cult of Vorg]

Oh well, if I've been house ruling I guess I'll continue. I don't mind seeing a huge dog or large eagle or tiny displacer-beast.

[xn0o0cl3]

Thanks for the link, MinstrelintheGallery. The ability still seems less than useful. I can't think of any instance where a druid has run out of time while wild shaped, except for the first level or two after gaining access to it. On the whole, this ability only seems to have any real effect between levels 6-10ish and just becomes a burden in the 'teens.

The earlier access to sizes especially bugs me because of the lack of huge creatures, especially since, as Jason pointed out in that other thread, you can't technically wild shape into templated creatures. This makes the bird shaman's ability fairly useless, as there is virtually no way (without houseruling) to wild shape into a roc. Seems like a big oversight to me. I'll just be houseruling that young/giant animals are fair game, as are other size modifications when they make sense (e.g., no tiny bears. No one wants a fetus in the party).