Complete disagreement with cranewings -- much to antagonistic to me.
The ability is supernatural -- which means it isn't bound by the 'normal' rules of stealth in many ways. hide in plain sight states that it works when you are near the correct lighting conditions, not that it is dependent on the viewers sight. As such it will function regardless of the viewers optical senses (in general).
It is not explained (in a fluff sense) how the ability works, this leaves it completely up to the players and GM on that point, meaning it can make as much or as little "sense" as the players and GM imagination allows.
|
so i know darkvision has no effect on hips, but low light vision might, i dont think it does but one of my players does. my stance is that hips works on the light conditions of the room and not how those light conditions are seen, i just need a final answer outside of my group.
thanks, also i brought up its a supernatrual effect but that got me nowhere.
There is no direct description on how HIPS works. There a lot of flavour about the shadowdancer's weaving together of shadows to become half-seen artists of deception. Even in the class feature description is says "she cannot, however, hide IN her own shadow." (my emphasis) yet the rules lawyers on many boards have stated that the shadows don't directly conceal or cover the shadowdancer.
If you're ruling that darkvision doesn't effect HIPS I dont' see why low light vision would.
low light vision has no effect on hide in plain sight. sure the viewer sees better in shadows but dies nit change the existence if shadows which is all that is required.
Dim light is a fixed condition. And some one is hiding in plain sight. No, they don't see them - darkvision or low-light vision.
|
Going to have to disagree with you there Trista. I say HIPS allows you to make your stealth check, but you don't get the additional plus to stealth from being concealed in low light that you would normally get versus a creature without low-light vision. This would also include creatures with darkvision. It'll be a hard check, but you at least get a check.
As far as the concealment from smoke and fog. That's obscured vision by something physically blocking your vision, not the absence of light. Fog doesn't effect the level of light in the area, just how far you can see. For the most part, this is just semantics, because a rogue in fog, and a rogue in low light can make a stealth check regardless.
|
Just let them have it. It's a high level ability, and by then everything will have either darkvision, true sight, see invisibility, or detect magic on constantly. Meaning as long as they don't have cover made of lead, they are going to light up like a torch as long as they are carrying a few unobscured magic items.
As for mooks, let em sneak past. The lich in the room will point him out to the bugbears soon enough.
OMG NOT THIS AGAIN
*RUNS AWAY SCREAMING PULLING HAIR OUT*
Given how many ridiculous topics there are about the Shadowdancer HiPS, I am surprised there isn't at least one a day about the Ranger. He can hide anywhere any time in a favored environment! I mean, right in the middle of the day in a savannah 5 feet away from an Ogre. I have normal sight; I can see him right?!
|
|
Given how many ridiculous topics there are about the Shadowdancer HiPS, I am surprised there isn't at least one a day about the Ranger. He can hide anywhere any time in a favored environment! I mean, right in the middle of the day in a savannah 5 feet away from an Ogre. I have normal sight; I can see him right?!
You roll your perception check vs. his stealth. All modifiers included. HIPS isn't a god move, it just allows you the ability to sneak. Dunno why that's an issue for so many people. This Dungeons & Dragons, not commoners and big rats. You can do things that break all normal logic and feasibly real capabilities.
As Thorn said it's still versus the ogres perception roll and at 17th level ranger would likely be fighting something of lvl 17 equivalent which would have a high perceptions roll. What if its an ogre mage?
:facepalm:
It doesn't matter what it is against. It doesn't matter what a creature's Perception roll is.
The fact is the Ranger is standing in the middle of a Savannah 5 feet away from A CREATURE at high noon and the DC to Spot him is higher than 0.
Why are there not thousands of threads on that instead of one about the Shadowdancer every two weeks.
I don't think you are remotely understanding what I am getting at.
A lot of this debate depends on whether you think the reference to shadowdancers hiding in their own shadows is useful to understanding how HiPS works or is a throw-away bit of fluff. If it matters, then yes - low-light vision and darkvision can affect whether or not HiPS works when those vision abilities apply. If you think it's a bit of throw away fluff, then no, neither matters.
Not only is that fluff, it's fluff made up by players. The Shadowdancer hides. In plain sight. While being observed. End of rules debate.
|
I don't think you are remotely understanding what I am getting at.
...Allow me, stewardess! I Speak Jive!
Trista, Cartigan is saying that he doesn't understand why there are less forum threads started about the Ranger being able to hide in broad daylight in the middle of a wide open area with no cover than there are about a Shadowdancer being able to hide while being a reasonable distance from shadow in what is likely to be a less-than amply illuminated area.
You would think (right?) that the ranger situation would cause more confusion than the Shadowdancer situation. But, using forum thread frequency as a guide, you'd be wrong.
I agree, Cartigan - 100%.
Not only is that fluff, it's fluff made up by players. The Shadowdancer hides. In plain sight. While being observed. End of rules debate.
If, by "fluff made up by players" you mean the players who actually wrote the rules, then yes. It's right there on page 392 of the Core rules.
The question remains - is that an important bit of text to use in understanding how the power works. Is the shadowdancer hiding in a remote shadow or do the shadows allow the character to make a stealth check without us contemplating that they are effectively in a shadow? Differing interpretations of that lead to different conclusions.
Not only is that fluff, it's fluff made up by players. The Shadowdancer hides. In plain sight. While being observed. End of rules debate.If, by "fluff made up by players" you mean the players who actually wrote the rules, then yes. It's right there on page 392 of the Core rules.
Not in the SRD, don't care.
The question remains - is that an important bit of text to use in understanding how the power works.
Rules are things written down. Dim light is a concrete condition. Where and how it exists is a concrete condition. A shadowdancer can perform Stealth while being observed within a concrete distance of said concrete condition. Fluff is irrelevant. That is what happens. That is how it works. Nothing written could possibly interfere with any of that so fluff is irrelevant.
|
As Thorn said it's still versus the ogres perception roll and at 17th level ranger would likely be fighting something of lvl 17 equivalent which would have a high perceptions roll. What if its an ogre mage?:facepalm:
It doesn't matter what it is against. It doesn't matter what a creature's Perception roll is.
The fact is the Ranger is standing in the middle of a Savannah 5 feet away from A CREATURE at high noon and the DC to Spot him is higher than 0.
Why are there not thousands of threads on that instead of one about the Shadowdancer every two weeks.
I'll take a crack at this one.
I think the reason you don't see many ranger threads is because there's no real easy way to get x-ray vision or some other ability that lets you see through solid objects. The whole shadowdancer HiPS debate comes from the fact that "Well my character can see through darkenss, and if I can see through it, then there's nothing for the shadowdancer to hide behind". Even in a wide open savanna, a ranger could still drop prone in the grass, behind a shrub, or anything else. Again its just people's real world perceptions hoisted onto a game of fantasy.
Of course you can always slap real world equivalents on to screw the entire argument up :) "Darkvision" (ie goggles of night) sounds a hell of a lot like night vision goggles. And I bet if you were standing in a savanna with an army forces ranger in a ghillie suit hiding 5' away from you, you'd fail your spot check as well. :)
Logic seems to rarely apply in fantasy, but hey thats why we play the game.I always liked the phrase "fantasy is where the impossible is probable, and sci-fi is where the improbable is possible".
Trista, Cartigan is saying that he doesn't understand why there are less forum threads started about the Ranger being able to hide in broad daylight in the middle of a wide open area with no cover than there are about a Shadowdancer being able to hide while being a reasonable distance from shadow in what is likely to be a less-than amply illuminated area.You would think (right?) that the ranger situation would cause more confusion than the Shadowdancer situation. But, using forum thread frequency as a guide, you'd be wrong.
I think there's a perfectly good explanation for this. Before rangers get the ability to hide in plain sight, they get camouflage, the ability to hide in their favored terrain even if there's no cover or concealment. HiPS for rangers allows them to do it that even while observed. It's easy to make the connection that he's blending into his surroundings as an extension of his camouflage ability.
Contrast that with hiding in poor lighting conditions - an ability easily countered by having the right type of vision that extends your ability to see into those conditions. The ability to hide in poor lighting is one of the most easily defeated forms of hiding in D&D - turn on a light or even look in that direction with the ability to see throught he darkness and it's beaten. Hide behind a shrub (or in front of it if you look enough like the shrub) and lighting or other vision abilities really doesn't matter. It's harder to strip away that condition in order to defeat the ability to hide.
Shadowdancers and assassins, relying on poor lighting to hide in plain sight, touch on that territory. Hence, you get many more messageboard questions about it.
I'll take a crack at this one.I think the reason you don't see many ranger threads is because there's no real easy way to get x-ray vision or some other ability that lets you see through solid objects.
But I'm standing in a savannah, or a grassy plain if you want to be difficult, in the middle of the day. If the Ranger was treated like the Shadowdancer, there would be infinite threads going "But I'm not blind, he's standing right there! Why do I have to make a Perception check?!"
Not in the SRD, don't care.Guess again.
A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Where?
Pointless! if you wanna argue About rangers then start a new thread this threa is about shadowdancers HIPS.But I'm standing in a savannah, or a grassy plain if you want to be difficult, in the middle of the day. If the Ranger was treated like the Shadowdancer, there would be infinite threads going "But I'm not blind, he's standing right there! Why do I have to make a Perception check?!"
I'll take a crack at this one.I think the reason you don't see many ranger threads is because there's no real easy way to get x-ray vision or some other ability that lets you see through solid objects.
I don't think Trista speaks Jive. I think we need a different translator.
|
|
But I'm standing in a savannah, or a grassy plain if you want to be difficult, in the middle of the day. If the Ranger was treated like the Shadowdancer, there would be infinite threads going "But I'm not blind, he's standing right there! Why do I have to make a Perception check?!"
I'll take a crack at this one.I think the reason you don't see many ranger threads is because there's no real easy way to get x-ray vision or some other ability that lets you see through solid objects.
I agree with you, there should be more ranger threads, but i think its a simple matter of 2 things, player perception and how often they see it in their games.
I think Savannah or desert specialized rangers are probably pretty rare, while shadowdancers are pretty common as a player class.
Its all about the players' perceptions of what the character is hiding behind? If the player say's my ranger is hiding in the savanna grass, most DM's and other player's shrug their shoulders and let it fly because its not that different that normal stealth, and they, as people, can picture it. Think Lion in the grass. When someone says " I hide in plain sight using the shadows as concealment, the half-orc player looks over and says, "Um I see through darkenss, to me there are no shadows".
Yes its two sides of the same coin, but one is easier to grasp to peopl who live in the real world.
I removed a post. Please don't make things personal.
|
|
Camouflage, however unlikely the environment, is a concept SO much easier to swallow than a Shadowdancer using shadow to enact their supernatural hiding ability without the shadow in some way concealing them. You can't blame anyone for thinking the hiding has something to do with the lighting conditions other just being a prerequisite.
James' analogue of "thinking of it has a component of a spell" is the least jarring frame I've heard for this but the controversy would be absent if the ability was better written. The "fluff" and the "crunch" shouldn't be divorced.
|
|
Camouflage, however unlikely the environment, is a concept SO much easier to swallow than a Shadowdancer using shadow to enact their supernatural hiding ability without the shadow in some way concealing them. You can't blame anyone for thinking the hiding has something to do with the lighting conditions other just being a prerequisite.
You'd be right, except a Ranger doesn't have to smear dirt all over his face and lie in the grass in a ghille suit in order to receive his HiPS. He can be standing right in front of you and waving his arms, wearing a Megadeath tee-shirt, with nothing to hide in or behind, and no explanation whatsoever as to why you suddenly can't see him. Doesn't matter, you still can't see him (pending a perception check).
Put that way, it's just as difficult to grasp (if not moreso) as 'dancer HiPS.
|
|
Put that way, it's just as difficult to grasp (if not moreso) as 'dancer HiPS.
Sure, if you want to play it that way. The concept as least gives to opportunity for verisimilitude. Any self respecting role-player with a high level ranger is going to crack out his giraffe print on a trip to the savannah.
