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Dear Paizo/Gamemastery folks:
Could it be possible to come up with a line of "SMART" gargantuan and colossal minis? I think the large and huge mini market has already been saturated by the D&D mini series over the years, and most gamers have an abundance of these products already.
However, the concept of "smart" gargantuans and colossals have not been exploited yet. Here's my thoughts on what a "smart" oversized mini should be:
1. Proper square dimensions: 4 squares across for gargantuan, and 6 squares across for colossal. If a DM wants more than 6 squares for colossal they can use the D&D mini big red (8 squares across).
2. "Hollow" center: the gargantuan or colossal mini should either be properly "elevated" and the base marked with squares so as to allow easy placing of smaller minis underneath the behemoth... either that, or forego the base and support the mini by a 4 or 6 square wire on the perimeter only (for garg/coloss minis, respectively) The wire method would have the added advantage that existing minis on the battlefield would NOT need to be reshuffled when the gargantuan or colossal mini moves around. The current D&D mini gargantuans have a base so when they enter squares occupied by medium minis, EVERYTHING needs to be pickup up, and repositioned on top of the gargantuan base, and in some case, this is impossible because the gargantuan base has no room for them (i.e. the actual mini is quite voluminous/thick) This results in most DMs just keeping the mini stationary because they don't want to bother with the minutiae required by constantly moving the battlefield around every time the garg./coloss. mini moves... (i.e. less dynamic, more boring battle)
3. Going with the wire idea above: if a "smart" gargantuan/colossal mini line is not possible or not within the core competencies of Paizo/Gamemastery, then perhaps produce a "wire base" which would elevate a garg/coloss. mini above the battlefield so as not disturb the minis below. Many garg./coloss. creatures fly anyhow. Make the wire base a 4-square or 6-square perimeter so the user can easily tell which squares the creature is in.
This is it for now, but I'll keep adding to the thread if I have other ideas/wishes on the subject. Please do not hesitate to provide any other comments or personal experiences on the matter.
Cheers!
Personally, I think that once you get to that size, you're in the realm of children's toys and action figures, and any mini produced is going to end up really expensive compared to a similar-sized toy or action figure.
For example, Reaper's Verocithrax dragon is 6" tall with an 8" wingspread and costs $55 in unpainted, unassembled pewter. Yet you can buy a similarly-sized painted McFarlane dragon sculpture for $30... because he probably manufactures 10x as many of his "toys" than Reaper casts of its big dragons.
I would love to see more big minis, but until tabletop gaming is as popular as WOW or football, I fear they'll remain pretty expensive.
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Understood. Perhaps a Gamemastery "gargantuan stand" or "colossal stand" would be a good idea then... that way, you have a square wire of the proper size on the battlemap supporting anything you want on top (be it an improperly sized mini or a McFarlane toy... :) )
Edit: OR a World of Warcraft toy!!! (some of them are really nice looking!!) There you go Sean: pitch the idea to Paizo and go in a joint venture with Blizzard Entertainment / World of Warcraft!!! :) :) :) ...ah, if only I was living in the U.S... until then I will live vicariously through you, or the perceived opportunities I think you have... :P
Gargantuan and Colossal bases would be great--and they are hard to find (though you can get creative with things like plastic lids and the like). Someone posted a link in this forum to a place that would make cheap custom cut bases of any size you asked, I don't remember where.
It doesn't always look as nice, but you could also mount smaller models onto the larger bases to represent a larger creature (some of the smaller $10-ish dragons Reaper sells could be glued to a Gargantuan base---players will still get the idea that it is a dragon, and it occupies a gargantuan space).
I gotta say the bigger metal creatures--like the large Reaper dragons--aren't really suitable for gameplay anyway. I put together Reaper's "Gauth" dragon--not even the biggest dragon model they have--and I would not want to try to carry that with me to a game and push it around on a game board (even if I had assembled it by itself on its own base). Those are HUGE chunks of pewter--very heavy, even pinned I don't want to handle it a lot because ANY errors in assembly could make something unfortunate happen. In the diorama-ish thing I made (which is more Gauth and a little figure and some rocks) I also had to weight down the other side of the base because the dragon's weight made the whole thing try to topple to one side (the "rocks" on it are masses of train weights covered in green stuff). Of course with plastic minis it's not as much of a problem, but the prepainteds come on their own base, and I don't know of anyone who makes unpainted plastic dragons (maybe someone like Privateer Press does or ought to?).
I would love to have bases ive been thinking about going to the train store and making them out of some of the boarding in the shop my buddy told me about
Just a quick question the base of the red dragon is to big? what should Gargantuan and Colossal bases be in size how many across thanks in advance
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Personally, I think that once you get to that size, you're in the realm of children's toys and action figures, and any mini produced is going to end up really expensive compared to a similar-sized toy or action figure.
For example, Reaper's Verocithrax dragon is 6" tall with an 8" wingspread and costs $55 in unpainted, unassembled pewter. Yet you can buy a similarly-sized painted McFarlane dragon sculpture for $30... because he probably manufactures 10x as many of his "toys" than Reaper casts of its big dragons.
I would love to see more big minis, but until tabletop gaming is as popular as WOW or football, I fear they'll remain pretty expensive.
I'm not sure what it means to the companies producing the minis, but during the legacy set for DC heroclix Wizkids got in some sort of trouble because of the Bat-Robot from Kingdom Come. Its arms moved, so for some sort of tax purposes or something they had to declare them as action figures instead of miniatures. Once you got to Colossal and gargantuan... the moving parts would be good, because they take up so much space (I love my wizards colossal red, but I hate the pose)
I can't remember who cuts custom bases to size, either, but I do know that companies like Dragon Forge and Micro Art Studios are making bigger and bigger scenic and generic bases. Renedra also seems to be headed for bigger custom, plain bases.
If you have a handy plastic store, like TAP, you can sometimes find already-cut thin plastic disks from 1/4 inch up to a few feet across, and every size in-between, for relatively cheap. I've been basing large/huge+ creatures on those for years.
Being a junkie for a nice, cluttered tabletop, I have collected some pretty big figs, and I think there are plenty of large metals that are suitable for play. My secret is that I base them extremely well, keep an ample supply of boxes and shelving nearby, and since I am the GM, I make everybody come to my place, where the terrains, tables, minis and books are.
On the other hand, we played for twenty-five years without all that stuff on the table, and it's not hard to go back to that when needed.
As to super colossal creatures, toys are good to stand in. But when we get that big, usually we just wave our hands around the area, and try to keep an eye on the table as to where something would be. Mark it off with an empty disk, that sort of thing.
DapperDevil.com already has several "this is an X size base with a Y size recessed area so you can give a smaller mini the size you want." Perhaps if you send them an email about it they'll add Col and Gar base sizes to their product line?
Hello all,
I got PDK's email, which directed me to this thread. I've thought about making Gar/Col bases before, but couldn't decide on the best method for approaching them. Maybe you folks could answer some questions about how you'd want a Gar/Col base to look?
If one of the requirements is (as suggested in the first post of this thread) that smaller-sized minis must be able to conveniently move through the space of the Gar/Col creature, then a few options occur to me:
Option 1: A simple square piece of clear plastic, 4x4 or 6x6 squares, with gridlines on it for the internal squares. Other minis would move about on top of the plastic, using the grid, when they entered the space of the Gar/Col creature. Pros: Relatively inexpensive compared to more complex methods. Battle map is visible through the plastic, so it's easy to see difficult terrain, etc. Easy to store & transport. Cons: when the Gar/Col moves, there's a lot of shuffling about that needs to happen; creatures in the Gar/Col space need to be adjusted, as does anything in the spaces the Gar/Col is moving into.
Option 2: A "table" design, where the basic square of plastic mentioned in option 1 (with grid) is elevated somehow on four "legs" in the corners. Pros: moving the Gar/Col around is, in theory, simpler than option 1, since you can leave all other minis in place. Cons: More expensive than option 1. Harder to transport & store, and legs could snap off during transport. Unless legs detach, in which case it's possible to lose them. Height of the "table": is it high enough to fit large minis underneath? Or huges? That's probably 4-6", which introduces stability problems, and could look a bit silly.
Option 3: "Cage" design. As table, except instead of a solid top, it's just four narrow "bars" connecting the legs, with the center open. Pros: Now larges/huges taller than the "cage" fit inside the Gar/Col by simply extending through the empty middle. Still easy to move around without disturbing other minis. Could now be color instead of clear, as you don't need to see through it. Cons: same storage/transport problems as option 2. Might look odd. Not much different in principle than simply placing four 1" square markers in the corner squares of the Gar/Col, which is far cheaper and easier to store/transport.
Which brings up, Option Zero: Four 1" square tokens of the same color that say "Gargantuan" or "Colossal." You put them in the corners of the Gar/Col's space. Hell, that's so simple I may just add it to the store today, heh.
Anyway, I'd like some feedback on these, and any other design options that occur to people. I'm not really sure how much demand for Gar/Col bases there is, but one of the advantages of my production methods is that I don't have to make stuff in batches of 50,000. Also, I'm bogged down in a website redesign at the moment, so I may not have time to work on prototypes immediately, but I will check on in this thread frequently.
Thanks for linking me here, this is an interesting problem!
Jason
owner, dapperdevil.com
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Option 3: "Cage" design. As table, except instead of a solid top, it's just four narrow "bars" connecting the legs, with the center open. Pros: Now larges/huges taller than the "cage" fit inside the Gar/Col by simply extending through the empty middle. Still easy to move around without disturbing other minis. Could now be color...
Option 3.5 perhaps? (no pun intended! :P ) where you have the four connecting legs on a pivot (a pivot/rivet or simple jacket "snaps" should do... which would allow rotation and/or easy disassembly...) so they can be folded for transport? otherwise great idea!!! (sorry... mechanical engineering showing a bit here... I confess...)
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Option 3.75 (the Pathfinder option... LOL!)
--> have option 3.5 with a removable "table"... the table fits on top of a plastic groove... which I could draw/sketch something and post here but don't have a website to link to... if there is no tall mini underneath you can put the "table" top back to sit your Garg/Coloss. minis on top of the table, for much, much coolness effects! :) (especially when the mini has wings, like Garg blue dragon and Garg black dragon...) you'd really get a feel of the scale involved with a dragon flying above your PC's head!!!
Or perhaps a hollow grid at the correct base size, with places for pegs/legs at the corners, so you can have the big mini looming over the battlefield, people can still move their minis through its space, and the grid is easily moved to a new location on the map. And you can put the actual mini on top of it so you're not just fighting a giant grid monster. :)
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Been thinking about this problem a bit since I brought Big Red back to the gaming table [he was previously guarding a jade bowl full of loose change; not a befitting horde]. I really like options #1 & #3. Heck, if you had multiple tables [or even cubic "legs" that slot underneath the table], you could stack them and get varying flight levels for your flying colossals.
In any case, super stoked that you're looking into this. Now back to browsing Dapper Devil's goodies . . .
Man thouse character sheet covers are hella cool I ussually just use standard paper sleeves
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There is a another bonus for these gargantuan and colossal "stages" (for lac of a better word). They could be used as separate rooms. Our group has a set of tact-tiles and the individual tiles com in REAL handy when the party splits up (cue the GM chuckling) and you need just a small room for one group. I'd buy a set for tis reason alone.
I was looking at this and was thinking "You know, it sounds like what you need is some sort of ultra-modern minimalist cake stand."
So I looked on Amazon and found an ultra-modern three-tiered three-legged chrome-and-plastic cake stand set that should let you elevate large figures and let smaller ones move around underneath. It even looks like it has rounded ball feet so you could use it to slide your big dragon figure around without damaging a battle mat or knocking over other minis.
From checking the product description, the legs also unscrew, which works both for storage and changing the height of the platforms, and of course the set also works as stands for cakes or snacks, which works both for entertaining and justifying gaming purchases to non-gaming SOs.
A good find, KAM!
Yeah, that cake stand's pretty cool. Looks sturdy. That is more or less what's needed. Something like that that's square, 4x4/6x6, and gridded would be pretty ideal, no?
PDK, the idea of a stand that folds up for storage is pretty interesting. It introduces a lot more complexity into the design & production, but it sure would be convenient & cool. I suspect a design like that can't be done cheaply enough, but I'll put some thought into it.
I'll play around with some prototypes in my spare time (such as it is, heh). If other people have ideas, let's hear 'em!
Yeah, that cake stand's pretty cool. Looks sturdy. That is more or less what's needed. Something like that that's square, 4x4/6x6, and gridded would be pretty ideal, no?
PDK, the idea of a stand that folds up for storage is pretty interesting. It introduces a lot more complexity into the design & production, but it sure would be convenient & cool. I suspect a design like that can't be done cheaply enough, but I'll put some thought into it.
I'll play around with some prototypes in my spare time (such as it is, heh). If other people have ideas, let's hear 'em!
If you look at these cake stands here, you'll see a bunch of square ones that are completely acrylic. No grid marks, but those can easily be added, and from what I can see of the design, the legs can be unslotted and removed and stored flat.
For gaming of course you'd want the legs rotated so they'd line up with battle mat grid lines and thus not intrude on squares, but it gives a pretty basic idea of how to construct this.
PDK - if your drawing is to scale, then a 4x4 gargantuan stand is also 4" high? If so, then I foresee trouble using some of the heavier lead and pewter figures. Some of the Reaper dragons have wingspans in the 8" to 10" range, depending on pose. With that much pewter overhanging the edge of the base they probably will tip easily - especially when you consider the normal confusion on most gaming tables. Bumps and nudges could easily tip over any heavy gargantuan mini that's 4" off the table and supported on only those (relativly) small posts.
Most mini painters aren't going to risk 40+ hous of painting and modeling to a stand that isn't considerably more stable. While the DM in me likes the off the ground idea, the mini painter in me wants a simple and sturdy alternative.
Personally, I'm leaning towards Dapper Devil's option #1. Yes, I understand it will be fiddily to use and you'll have to move minis on and off the base, but it's sturdy and you can see the gaming grid through the base. That's all I really need.
Just my 2 coppers. Your mileage may vary.
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My idea definitely has the gamer in mind (i.e. D&D plastic garg and colossal minis or equivalent) and less the artist in mind (large/fragile metal assemblies)
The yellow sticks just show where the legs would pivot/rotate, but in reality, you could have just regular coat / clothing snaps (female end in the platform, at each corner, and male end in each leg - snap the leg in the platform and rotate at will; fill with play doh or some mildly sticky substance if it gets loose)
Google Images the word "snaps" for more example and variety. Other snaps have a larger area of contact and would rotate with more difficulty thus offer more stability.
Cheers,
PDK