Ok so there's been a lot of flak out there about guns targeting Touch AC.
Let's explore some alternatives?
I'm only looking for ideas that jive with the original intent: that guns have some sort of penetrative property at closer ranges.
Here's one that I've cobbled together from my own ideas and suggestions from a couple others:
All guns have a penetration rating (PR).
Shots from that gun ignore their PR of Natural Armor and/or Armor bonus on their target within the first range increment.
At each range increment for that weapon, attacks from that gun ignore 1 (or 2) less Natural Armor and/or Armor bonus than the previous range increment (this would obviously require some testing).
Maybe we can make the PR some multiple of the Misfire Rating, such as... let's see, x3?
(The logic behind this is that firearms with higher misfire rates probably use more powder, which means a lot more energy behind the bullet.)
Firearm Pistol
Cost 1,000 gp
Dmg (S) 1d6
Dmg (M) 1d8
Critical x4
Range 20 ft.
Misfire 1
Penetration 3
Capacity 1
Weight 4 lbs.
Type B and P
Firearm Musket
Cost 1,000 gp
Dmg (S) 1d6
Dmg (M) 1d8
Critical x4
Range 40 ft.
Misfire 1-2
Penetration 6
Capacity 1
Weight 9 lbs.
Type B and P
reasonable?
other suggestions?
my suggestion:
attack bonus of for every 5 feet closer than 20.
like 5 feet away bonus of 15
10 feet = +10
15 feet = +5
20 = 0
25 = -5
...
also the misfire would only make -1 attack and misfirevalue +1, and would stack, so it could misfire 5 times and you would get -5 attack, but your misfire value would be +5
thats my solution
your solution regulates piercing, but it makes calculations hard, "is your armor bigger than 6? no? 4? right, then I attack with ..."
however it is a decent solution.
Calculating the PR due to distance can be totally up to the GM though.
"Ok, I fire at the goblin with a [roll]12 plus 3, so.. 15. My gun has a PR of 3 and range of 20, and I'm at 30 feet."
DM consults the goblin notes that the goblin has an armor bonus of 2, and calculates the PR quickly in his head (3, -1 for first increment, so... 2) which hits the goblins modified AC of 14.
Most of the difficulty there is in rolling the die and talking.
Your solution.. kinda screws over monsters with high dodge and dex bonuses to AC. It would make all those nifty Targeting shots pretty dang awesome: autoprone, autoconfuse, or autodisarm for 1 grit... yeeah I don't think that would work :/
The problem is that guns don't have a penetrative property. A bullet is no better than a crossbow bolt at penetrating armor, what a bullet does have is incredible kinetic energy that not even plate can fully protect you from. The touch AC mechanic, I think is modeling the fact that at very close range, the sheer force of that impact is going to break bones, damage internal organs and even bend and deform armor, not penetrate it.
But I could be wrong.
The problem is that guns don't have a penetrative property. A bullet is no better than a crossbow bolt at penetrating armor, what a bullet does have is incredible kinetic energy that not even plate can fully protect you from. The touch AC mechanic, I think is modeling the fact that at very close range, the sheer force of that impact is going to break bones, damage internal organs and even bend and deform armor, not penetrate it.
But I could be wrong.
Even today when cops go into combat, they were Chest plate armor to protect there vital organs. Thick Plate Armor does stop bullets.
It would not stop thin plate, like darkages plate armor, due to the armor being very thin, so that the armor is light enough to wear around.
Over the years, the armor keep getting thicker, and heaver in an arms race vs bullets. In the end, it was Cost and Weight vs Cheap man power that lost. It was cheaper to train a person with a gun, and throw them into combat than it was to equip them with armor that was heavy, hard to wear, expensive cost, and that they did not wear all the time (unconformable).
Armor save lives.... If you can afford it, do not mind being weighted down all the time, do not mind the discomfort (being hot or cold) of wearing it, and willing to wear it when not needed (90% of the time).
I weren't trying to turn this into a discussion on whether or not bullets would penetrate armor, but rather on if we were to assume that they do (which the devs seemed wont to do) what mechanics might fit better?
It should probably work not just as AC penetration but as Ignore Hardness as well, so shooting a musket at close range ignores 6 hardness and -2 for each range increment (or -1 for each half range increment).
Hey, that's good. Maybe it could replace the Lock Shooting mechanics as well.
I like the Penetration Rating idea. It should probably work not just as AC penetration but as Ignore Hardness as well, so shooting a musket at close range ignores 6 hardness and -2 for each range increment (or -1 for each half range increment).
There's already a mechanic in the game that allows for that. Adamantine weapons ignore up to 20 hardness, so a few adamantine bullets would accomplish the same task, but with greater effect - though expensive.
That said, and with the interest of 'maintaining realism', as seems to be the assumed development motive, why not armor penetrating bullets? That's what is used to penetrate armor today, and is an invention necessitated by the inability of bullets (let alone round slugs) to break easily through some materials. Provide the bullet with the penetration rating, not the gun, and allow it to ignore a set amount of armor and natural armor bonus.
My only concern with that route is that it starts to dip into mechanics that remind me the Star Wars Saga Edition, which often allowed options which 'treated x number as x lower'. It's not my favorite system, so I'd hate to see the design ideas bleed over.
That said, and with the interest of 'maintaining realism', as seems to be the assumed development motive, why not armor penetrating bullets? That's what is used to penetrate armor today, and is an invention necessitated by the inability of bullets (let alone round slugs) to break easily through some materials. Provide the bullet with the penetration rating, not the gun, and allow it to ignore a set amount of armor and natural armor bonus.
This isn't bad either. The only small hole I might be able to punch in it (pun partially intended, sorry) is that gunslingers get pinged pretty hard already when it comes to equipment cost. Not that it couldn't be adjusted or anything.
Now that DOES open up the idea for "AP" bullets that ADD to the PR of the gun when shot. The Playtest PDF doesn't differentiate between musket and pistol bullets, but hint at it in the musket description("large-caliber bullets"). I imagine the costs will be different once it comes up.
Let's explore some alternatives?I'm only looking for ideas that jive with the original intent: that guns have some sort of penetrative property at closer ranges.
Something I was thinking about that sort of works with the with the guns as touch attacks is using the armor/shield/natural armor as a DR rating.
It's a little clunky but it works in as much as the treant or dragon with massive natural armor doesn't need to fear small guns so much any more. A magic bonus on the gun or ammo would then reduce the natural armor bonus as well.
i.e. a +1 gun vs a creature with NA +7, would get DR 6 against gun shots for an effective +2 to damage with each attack from -1 DR and +1 to damage from the magical enhancement.
In cases like the bane property, the DR effect would be eliminated entirely.
Let's explore some alternatives?I'm only looking for ideas that jive with the original intent: that guns have some sort of penetrative property at closer ranges.
Something I was thinking about that sort of works with the with the guns as touch attacks is using the armor/shield/natural armor as a DR rating.
It's a little clunky but it works in as much as the treant or dragon with massive natural armor doesn't need to fear small guns so much any more. A magic bonus on the gun or ammo would then reduce the natural armor bonus as well.
i.e. a +1 gun vs a creature with NA +7, would get DR 6 against gun shots for an effective +2 to damage with each attack from -1 DR and +1 to damage from the magical enhancement.
In cases like the bane property, the DR effect would be eliminated entirely.
That... seems to go in the opposite direction, you'd be counting some armor bonuses twice.
I doubt anyone would consider playing a class that was penalized so.
...you'd be counting some armor bonuses twice.
I'm not sure exactly what you meant by that.
I doubt anyone would consider playing a class that was penalized so.
I would guess that some of the damage values for the guns would have to be increased using my method, but if they're going to leave it as a touch attack for the sake of realism, then it makes just as much sense to include the effect of armor and natural armor on reducing the bullet's damage.
(And upping the damage for a gun doesn't seem like such a bad thing in my eyes; most people only need to be shot once to die.)