Eidolon Rules Questions

[Adam Ormond]

Looking at the Eidolon rules, a few things strike me as arbitrariliy constrictive, while evincing no apparent [to me] game balancing reason. I'd like to work within the rules as much as possible, without asking the group to create house rules, however. As such, I have a few questions:

1) Can a single Tail evolution have both a Slap and a Sting? The emphasis is mine. By RAW, it seems legal to me.

Tail Slap:

An eidolon can use its tail to bash
nearby foes, granting it a tail slap attack. This attack is a
secondary attack. The tail slap deals 1d6 points of damage
(1d8 if Large, 2d6 if Huge). The eidolon must possess the
tail evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can be
selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an
equal number of the tail evolution.

Sting:

An eidolon possesses a long, barbed stinger
at the end of its tail, granting it a sting attack. This attack
is a primary attack. The sting deals 1d4 points of damage
(1d6 if Large, 1d8 if Huge). The eidolon must possess the
tail evolution to take this evolution. This evolution can be
selected more than once, but the eidolon must possess an
equal number of the tail evolution.

2) Is there any allowance for swapping base form evolutions? For example, trading Climb for Swim? I don't see any reason why a Water Moccasin style serpent is any less mechanically balanced from a Cobra. What about Reach (Bite) for Reach (Tail Slap)? Why they chose to attach 'free evolutions' to the base stats (err, sorry, "forms") is beyond me; I would expect these types of restrictions for a video game, not a P&P roleplaying game.

3) Are the base evolutions considered already applied to the Eidolon? Or is the Reach evolution just 'missing' the wording that allows you to apply it to N attacks? Or is the Serpentine Eidolan just paying through the nose mechanically for a 16 Dex with a bunch of required evolutions that are functionally useless in a number of environments?

4) Reach Evolution - does this limit the Eidolon from attacking adjacent foes with this natural attack? The rules are all over the place with respect to Reach. In one place it describes Reach Weapons as having a reach of double the creature's normal reach, and then later it describes the same modifier as a static reach of 10'. Even later yet it describes "Natural Reach" as a function of size, which acts differently from the 'Reach' property of a weapon. Which of these effects is the "Reach" evolution?

[Mojorat]

remembervtail slap (I don't know about the sting) is a secondary attack. when making secondary attacks with natural weapons you cannot make an attack with a natural weapon if it has already been used with a limb as part of snot her attack.

so you can have both but using both atbthe same time doesn't work

[erik542]

1) Yes you can. And Mojorat, a finer reading would read otherwise.

srd wrote:

When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

Both become secondary attacks.

2)

srd wrote:

Evolution Pool: The value given in this column is the total number of points in the eidolon’s evolution pool. Points from this pool can be spent on a wide variety of modifications and upgrades that add new abilities, attacks, and powers to the eidolon. Whenever the summoner gains a level, the number in this pool increases and the summoner can spend these points to change the abilities of the eidolon. These choices are not set. The summoner can change them whenever he gains a level (and through the transmogrify spell).

The Curmudgeon's Encyclopedia of Excrutiatingly Correct Grammar says no.

3) Yes. No, a natural attack is an attack. One could say that. But there are times where it will be otherwise.

4) It is natural reach.

[Adam Ormond]

Thanks for the input!

[Mojorat]

I am positive I am correct will look in the books later. it's in the area covering natural weapons with iterative attacks. though it occurs to me it may not apply here.

[Shoga]

1) Can a single Tail evolution have both a Slap and a Sting? The emphasis is mine. By RAW, it seems legal to me.

I agree but your DM might see it differently. Check with your DM for final arbitration.

2) Is there any allowance for swapping base form evolutions?

Agree with Erik542 but once again, maybe your DM would allow substitutions.

3) Are the base evolutions considered already applied to the Eidolon? Or is the Reach evolution just 'missing' the wording that allows you to apply it to N attacks? Or is the Serpentine Eidolan just paying through the nose mechanically for a 16 Dex with a bunch of required evolutions that are functionally useless in a number of environments?

Only the Free evolutions have been applied. Any others should be paid for with Evolution points.

4) Reach Evolution - does this limit the Eidolon from attacking adjacent foes with this natural attack? The rules are all over the place with respect to Reach. In one place it describes Reach Weapons as having a reach of double the creature's normal reach, and then later it describes the same modifier as a static reach of 10'. Even later yet it describes "Natural Reach" as a function of size, which acts differently from the 'Reach' property of a weapon. Which of these effects is the "Reach" evolution?

No, it doesn't. When you "reach" for something, you stretch out.. standard melee targets in 5' are still viable to attack.