Loremaster (Wizard archetype)

[Unimportant]

I've always thought that there should be other options for a party "trivia master" besides the Bard. None of the 3PP "scholar" options have done much for me, mostly since they tend to be weak in combat support. Since the APG introduced the archetypes for base classes, however, I've been thinking about ways to use that concept to build what I'm looking for. I think I have a workable concept, but I would greatly appreciate feedback (especially on the skill point/cantrip balance). Thanks!

Spoiler:

Loremaster

Books, and the knowledge they contain, have a special appeal to the Loremaster. There is no subject that does not concern the Loremaster, or any piece of knowledge too trivial. While regular Wizards may look down their noses at Loremasters due to their lack of focus and slower advance in power, even the most learned Wizard must sometimes seek the services of a Loremaster when faced with some obscure puzzle or antedeluvian script...

Lore keeper - At 1st level, Loremasters have the bardic special ability of bardic knowledge. This replaces arcane bond.

Universalist - The Loremasters' broad interests and sometimes scattered concentration precludes them from deep specialization. Loremasters are always of the Universalist school.

Seeker of knowledge - Loremasters have a burning desire to learn, and to learn about everything they possibly can. However, this comes at the price of somewhat diluted spellcasting power. Loremasters gain (4 + INT bonus) skill points per level. This replaces cantrips.

Learned scholar - At 5th level, the loremaster gains the bardic special ability Lore master at the equivalent level to their wizard level. This replaces scribe scroll.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

I like the flavor of this class. But the abilities are very weak.

The lore keeper ability is very weak for what you are giving up. In exchange for arcane bond, add the lore keeper, seeker of knowledge, and lore master. You are giving up a creature which can help a lil in combat and increasing the range of the parties senses.

Universalist - Maybe spruce this up with a variant school based on universalist. A selection of alternate school abilities.

[Thane36425]

Mongoose Publishing has two books about Wizards and one includes and archetype like what you seem to be looking for.

I agree with LeBlanc that you are giving up a lot for little gain. As GM, I would be satisfied with giving you those things in exchange for chosing two knowledge skills that you would have to keep at maximum and require a skill focus feat in a knowledge skill or Spellcraft. This would not be in place of Scribe Scroll since that would be valuable for this archetype, but from the starting feats. That's a heavy price on the front end, but it fits with the intent. Or require the character be a diviner instead of a generalist.

Really though I've had the skills pumped up and bardic knowledge added to my wizards in the past without any imbalance.

[Unimportant]

Hmm. I must admit that I haven't seen much of the Mongoose Quintessential Classes books, Thane. Do you recall which one has the archetype?

I must also admit that I am more of a GM than a player and have a concern about power creep. I had orignally kept Scribe Scroll and given 8 skill points per level, but decided to err on the side of caution. Perhaps keeping Scribe Scroll, lumping lore keeper and lore master together in exchange for arcane bond, and 6 skill points per level for cantrips would be better.

Thanks to you both for the feedback.

[Thane36425]

It is in the Character Concept section of the Quintessential Wizard called the Academic. I've used this with several of my wizards, with the addition of the bardic knowledge things and a few extra skill points without any problem.

I know what you mean though about power creep. Requiring that most of the extra points go into knowledge skills keeps that in check. The familiar as written in the Core Rulebook is fairly useful but can be replaced. But I also use thrid party material to make the familiar far more useful, including as a research assistant and scout, so for me they are too good to do without.

[Unimportant]

Updated archetype...

Spoiler:

The Loremaster

Books, and the knowledge they contain, have a special appeal to the Loremaster. There is no subject that does not concern the Loremaster, or any piece of knowledge too trivial. While regular Wizards may look down their noses at Loremasters due to their lack of focus and slower advance in power, even the most learned Wizard must sometimes seek the services of a Loremaster when faced with an obscure puzzle or antedeluvian script...

Lore keeper - Loremasters gain the bardic special abilities bardic knowledge at 1st level and Lore master at 5th level. These replace arcane bond.

Universalist - The Loremasters' broad interests and sometimes scattered concentration precludes them from deep specialization. Loremasters are always of the Universalist school.

Seeker of knowledge - Loremasters have a burning desire to learn, and to learn about everything they possibly can. However, this comes at the price of somewhat diluted spellcasting power. Loremasters gain 6 extra skill points per level to spend on Knowledge skills. This replaces cantrips.

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Loremaster is already a prestige class, so the class needs a new name. So how about Librarian? I think losing both the arcane bond and cantrips seriously gimps the class. So I made some changes, which I think are better balanced. I like how you described why he must select the universalist school, so I made a new subschool.

Librarian (Wizard)
Still loving the flavor text.

Skills Ranks per Level 2 + Int modifier

Well Read (Ex) A librarian adds half his class level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and may make all Knowledge skill checks untrained. At 5th level, the librarian becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in. A librarian can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, once per day, the librarian can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action. He can use this ability one additional time per day for every six levels he possesses beyond 5th, to a maximum of three times per day at 17th level. This ability replaces arcane bond.

Reclusive Researcher The librarian's broad interests and sometimes scattered concentration precludes them from deep specialization. Librarians must always select the Researcher school.

RESEARCHER SCHOOL
Associated School: Universalist

Replacement Powers: The following school power replaces the hand of the apprentice power of the universalist school.

Book Worm (Ex) At 1st level, and every level thereafter, you add one rank to four different Knowledge skills.

The following ability might fit in:

Annotated Spellbook (Ex) The librarian often takes notes in his spellbook. His spellbook contains a seemingly random collection of words, phrases, and strange mnemonic aids. Three times a day, the librarian can consult it to gain a +1 competence bonus when taking 10 or 20 on a Knowledge check. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. This ability replaces Scribe Scroll.

[Thane36425]

Replacing cantrips could be problematic. The class would lose Read Magic and Detect Magic. Also lost would be Mending which can repair minor damage to books, Open/Close which can open books or other things that might be trapped when there is no Rogue present, and Prestidigitation which can safely dry wet books, clean them of dirt and mold (then Mend can repair some of the damage), plus cleaning up your space or self and heating and flavoring your rations to make them more palatable, etc. But that's my 2 coppers.

Also purely for flavor, you might look up the Scholar's Touch spells.

[Firest]

You can also be a Lore Oracle. They don't get bardic knowledge, but they do get other knowledge-based abilities.

[Unimportant]

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

Loremaster is already a prestige class, so the class needs a new name. So how about Librarian? I think losing both the arcane bond and cantrips seriously gimps the class. So I made some changes, which I think are better balanced. I like how you described why he must select the universalist school, so I made a new subschool.

Re: the name, I bounced several other ideas around (Sage, Scholar) before settling on Loremaster as the least of the evils. I'm less concerned about the name than the mechanics, though...

Quote:

Annotated Spellbook (Ex) The librarian often takes notes in his spellbook. His spellbook contains a seemingly random collection of words, phrases, and strange mnemonic aids. Three times a day, the librarian can consult it to gain a +1 competence bonus when taking 10 or 20 on a Knowledge check. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. This ability replaces Scribe Scroll.

I like this. A lot.

Several people were concerned about the loss of cantrips. I admit that losing read magic and similar spells could be a problem, but the flavor I had in mind here is someone who is very brilliant, and can certainly do magic, but whose instictive talent is learning. Innate easy magic (cantrips) just isn't a skill for someone like that, as I envision it. Making cantrips available to Librarians as 1st level spells would be a work-around, perhaps?

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Unimportant wrote:

Re: the name, I bounced several other ideas around (Sage, Scholar) before settling on Loremaster as the least of the evils. I'm less concerned about the name than the mechanics, though...

Sage and scholar are both better names.

Unimportant wrote:

Quote:

Annotated Spellbook (Ex) The librarian often takes notes in his spellbook. His spellbook contains a seemingly random collection of words, phrases, and strange mnemonic aids. Three times a day, the librarian can consult it to gain a +1 competence bonus when taking 10 or 20 on a Knowledge check. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter. This ability replaces Scribe Scroll.

I like this. A lot.

I just reworked the Book of the Loremaster item and made it into an ability that fit the class.

Unimportant wrote:

Several people were concerned about the loss of cantrips. I admit that losing read magic and similar spells could be a problem, but the flavor I had in mind here is someone who is very brilliant, and can certainly do magic, but whose instictive talent is learning. Innate easy magic (cantrips) just isn't a skill for someone like that, as I envision it. Making cantrips available to Librarians as 1st level spells would be a work-around, perhaps?

What do you dislike about cantrips so much? You seem intent on ditching them. Turning them into 1st level spells for wizard really hurts low level wizards. Thane36425 made very good points on that area. A brilliant person would realize how much of an asset cantrips are and would really on them heavily and maybe even have unique cantrips they have developed. Since this class is weaker than a normal wizard, adding 1 cantrip per day is feasible.

[Unimportant]

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:

What do you dislike about cantrips so much? You seem intent on ditching them. Turning them into 1st level spells for wizard really hurts low level wizards. Thane36425 made very good points on that area. A brilliant person would realize how much of an asset cantrips are and would really on them heavily and maybe even have unique cantrips they have developed. Since this class is weaker than a normal wizard, adding 1 cantrip per day is feasible.

I don't dislike cantrips, it's just that in the groups I've played in they didn't get much use and seemed a good thing to trade off for new abilities. I guess others use them a lot more. So if cantrips are added back in, what does that do balancewise?

[Thomas LeBlanc]

Unimportant wrote:

I don't dislike cantrips, it's just that in the groups I've played in they didn't get much use and seemed a good thing to trade off for new abilities. I guess others use them a lot more. So if cantrips are added back in, what does that do balancewise?

The rewrite I did above only replaces the arcane bond with the bardic knowledge and lore master abilities. I changed the school to add the skills to the class you wanted and removed a combat ability. I think you could add 1 cantrip per day to the replacement school power without breaking it. And the ability you liked, replaced the scribe scroll.