your. confusing descriptive terminology with game mechanist ones. allo wooden bucklers are light wooden shields, becusevthey are shields made o wood and light. doesn't stop it in game mevhanic terms from being a buckler.
Yep, it shouldn't be called a buckler since the example isn't a buckler (bucklers are metal and can be mithral).
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html
It says Bucklers are metal here.
uh bucklers are commonly made of metal
You are correct--it appears that item is mis-named. From the specs, we can derive that is is derived from a light wooden shield (base cost 3 + masterwork cost 150 + darkwood cost (5 gp/lb) 50 = 203).
An actual darkwood buckler, if such were possible*, would cost 215 gp instead.
* Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood. And "Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. "
While all of this is technically correct, I would NOT say that a buckler couldn't be made out of darkwood.
Shields are typically made entirely from wood. Axes are not. IF you're looking to create a wooden buckler, I don't see a reason to disallow it.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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What is a Buckler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckler
For a historical outlook on the item.
Which really has no relation other than size to the D&D/Pathfinder arm-strapped buckler.
Many shields were indeed more often made of wood (banded with metal at times) than entirely of metal. However, the buckler is actually specifically distinguished in history for being traditionally made entirely of metal. While I'm sure wood or other materials could be used to construct them, bucklers definitely fall into the "Items not normally made of wood" category in comparison to other shield.
Which really has no relation other than size to the D&D/Pathfinder arm-strapped buckler.What is a Buckler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckler
For a historical outlook on the item.
True. The strapped on, small round shield is more appropriately called a target shield.
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Yes the darkwood buckler is a mess. Was so in 3.x and it seems never to be fixed it looks like. The cost highly suggest that the darkwood buckler is a darkwood light wooded shield and not a buckler...not that I don't allow bucklers to be made of leather, hide or wood anyways since target (the strapped bucklers vs the center grip ones) were.
Many shields were indeed more often made of wood (banded with metal at times) than entirely of metal. However, the buckler is actually specifically distinguished in history for being traditionally made entirely of metal. While I'm sure wood or other materials could be used to construct them, bucklers definitely fall into the "Items not normally made of wood" category in comparison to other shield.
True. The strapped on, small round shield is more appropriately called a target shield.Which really has no relation other than size to the D&D/Pathfinder arm-strapped buckler.What is a Buckler
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckler
For a historical outlook on the item.
"historically" In the history where there were no super special darkwood trees...to say a buckler can't be darkwood is a bit odd to me.
What we call bucklers were more commonly "lantern shields" as these strapped onto the arm whereas bucklers were gripped by the fist. I honestly think that the description "light wooden shield" is merely a description of that particular buckler rather than a reference to light wooden shield the item. Also as someone mentioned the historical accuracy of the item is doesnt really matter as it is "re-envisioned" by the game devs. so make it wood or metal if YOU want to, thats the beauty of TTRPGs
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What we call bucklers were more commonly "lantern shields" as these strapped onto the arm whereas bucklers were gripped by the fist. I honestly think that the description "light wooden shield" is merely a description of that particular buckler rather than a reference to light wooden shield the item. Also as someone mentioned the historical accuracy of the item is doesnt really matter as it is "re-envisioned" by the game devs. so make it wood or metal if YOU want to, thats the beauty of TTRPGs
Well there is more then just the light wooden shield being a light wooden shield vs a discription of a buckler that is the issue...like say the price. The price says it's a light wooden shield and not a buckler.
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First off using Wiki (or any other internet source) for anything other than general information is just wrong, because wiki can and has been wrong in the past.
the english version of the buckler, was used by the longbowmen and was strapped to the forearm in such a way as to no interfere with the use of the bow.
the longbowmen were armed with dirks as backup weapons, this was because hobilars (soliders trained to ride horse then dismount for combat) had taken to flanking the english armies for the distinct purpose of taking out the longbowmen, therefor the longbowmen were given a bit of weapon/defense vs. close combat.
So there is a basis in history for the "buckler" that actually buckles.
the target shield was norse.
The origin on the DnD buckler dates back to unearthed arcana, and was specifically listed as a shield that buckles to the forearm and can be carried in that fashion and used by Archers.
One could attack with a weapon in hand on the same arm the buckler was 'buckled to' but would not receive the benefit of the AC (same went for firing the bow)
so basically you had to choose between attack or defense with that arm, and it was there and available if you needed it.
Old first edition rules stated the buckler could only be used against 1 enemy, and therefor the AC bonus from that buckler could not be applied if more than one enemy were attacking you (so only against one of them, not against two or more of the others)
that is the lineage/history of the DnD "buckler", ie a shield that buckles and not a fist carried tiny disc shield.
the origins are separate ever thought the word is the same and confuses things.
Bucklers have just been carried from one form of DnD to the next, but that is how the buckler is intended and has nothing to do with the french "fist shield"
bucklers were introduced mainly for casters and archers. (at least in the DnD version)
First off using Wiki (or any other internet source) for anything other than general information is just wrong, because wiki can and has been wrong in the past.
Not to discredit your post but every single source of information can and has been wrong in the past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia
Food for Thought
First off using Wiki (or any other internet source) for anything other than general information is just wrong, because wiki can and has been wrong in the past.Not to discredit your post but every single source of information can and has been wrong in the past.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia
Food for Thought
errors will be errors, i think its funny you used the source of the information to gague its own reliability.
I have found tons of errors on wiki.
but more than likely the subject of bucklers is more and oversight or lack of complete information, rather than an 'error' per se.
Well, to be clear for my references, I'm not citing an Internet source but rather my general knowledge of weapons and armor (seems D&D folks accumulate that over the decades). While I know the English archers were known (and actually renowned) for their use of bucklers in close combat, I've never actually seen reference to these being strapped to the arm. All the accounts I've read have them slung from a belt/scabbard/etc. and reference using the buckler with a center grip only when close combat is inevitable. I'm neither a historian nor reenactor, however, so don't assume my knowledge is complete. Are there actual historical accounts of them strapped to the arm?
Not looking for a typical Internet "nuh-uh, I'm right!" thing here--I'm always genuinely interested in new aspects of topics like this!
For the game mechanics, I'm not arguing the logic of making a buckler from "magic wood" as there are real-world reference to wooden bucklers. I'm simply noting that by the rules, the buckler (an item made entirely of metal according to the game description) cannot be made out of darkwood without DM intervention. The darkwood buckler entry, then, is a weird anomaly similar to how a "mithral shirt" (specific magic armor) weighs 2.5 lb. less than a chain shirt made of mithral using the standard rules.
Maybe darkwood bucklers are listed in the magic armor section because they are an exception to the usual rules about darkwood.
+1
This is an excellent explanation. It is a specific shield that has special properties.
BTW, its not a mess. A mess is something that has an overwhelming effect on game balance. This is an insignificant mote of a problem.
Well, to be clear for my references, I'm not citing an Internet source but rather my general knowledge of weapons and armor (seems D&D folks accumulate that over the decades). While I know the English archers were known (and actually renowned) for their use of bucklers in close combat, I've never actually seen reference to these being strapped to the arm. All the accounts I've read have them slung from a belt/scabbard/etc. and reference using the buckler with a center grip only when close combat is inevitable. I'm neither a historian nor reenactor, however, so don't assume my knowledge is complete. Are there actual historical accounts of them strapped to the arm?
Not looking for a typical Internet "nuh-uh, I'm right!" thing here--I'm always genuinely interested in new aspects of topics like this!
For the game mechanics, I'm not arguing the logic of making a buckler from "magic wood" as there are real-world reference to wooden bucklers. I'm simply noting that by the rules, the buckler (an item made entirely of metal according to the game description) cannot be made out of darkwood without DM intervention. The darkwood buckler entry, then, is a weird anomaly similar to how a "mithral shirt" (specific magic armor) weighs 2.5 lb. less than a chain shirt made of mithral using the standard rules.
well i dont have a copy of the original unearthed arcana anymore, but it was described like that in that text.
I have seen such shields reenactment wise, I have seen drawings of them, so I know i'm not making it up. Maybe someone else was.
I know that in 1st edition when the buckler was introduced (as I said) it purpose was for archers and spell casters.
But I know Ive seen drawings of them strapped to the arm.
the era of the french buckler and the english buckler are different too.
By the time the french use bucklers, wearing armor has already gone out of style because fire arms are semi common.
the english longbowman use was earlier than this, because by the adevent of the fire arm, the longbowman was a dwindling commodity.
if you watch the movie "man in the iron mask" starring leonardo d'caprio you can see a scene where one of the musketeers is using the handheld in the center type buckler.
It was really a dualing shield and nothing else. Isnt really useful against, say a bastard sword.
Why is this even an issue?
Look, darkwood is a semi magical wood. It doesn't exist IRL, so saying what is or is not possible with it is kind of pointless. You have a wood that is described as being as strong per pound as metal, so there's NO reason you couldn't carve it into buckler shape, put a strap on it and call it a day.
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Why is this even an issue?
Look, darkwood is a semi magical wood. It doesn't exist IRL, so saying what is or is not possible with it is kind of pointless. You have a wood that is described as being as strong per pound as metal, so there's NO reason you couldn't carve it into buckler shape, put a strap on it and call it a day.
Even beyond that...there is no reason why you can't make a buckler out of wood...or hardened leather or hide. However to have the darkwood buckler be a buckler, you do have to pay more then what is listed in the core book as that price is to make a light wooden shield out of darkwood and not a buckler. Once you get the gold issue out of the way, should be no issue really.
well i dont have a copy of the original unearthed arcana anymore, but it was described like that in that text.
I have seen such shields reenactment wise, I have seen drawings of them, so I know i'm not making it up. Maybe someone else was.
I know that in 1st edition when the buckler was introduced (as I said) it purpose was for archers and spell casters.
But I know Ive seen drawings of them strapped to the arm.
the era of the french buckler and the english buckler are different too.
By the time the french use bucklers, wearing armor has already gone out of style because fire arms are semi common.
the english longbowman use was earlier than this, because by the adevent of...
Thanks. I never used Unearthed Arcana (I was a BECMI player early on; never moved over to "the other system" until Darksun came around). BECMI had the same assumption, however, of a strapped-on buckler. Of course, back then I didn't really care about historical accuracy of weapons and armor...
My interest increased in later days and that's when I paid more attention to museums and such. This is where I gathered that the true buckler was never actually strapped onto an arm, and was used so much in early (13th century and earlier) English combat. My assumption about the D&D implementation is Gygax simply went with the strapped on version due to seeing recreations that weren't specifically aware of buckler fighting or archery arms and armor.
In any case, if you do happen on historical references to the strapped on version shoot them my way!
Even beyond that...there is no reason why you can't make a buckler out of wood...or hardened leather or hide. However to have the darkwood buckler be a buckler, you do have to pay more then what is listed in the core book as that price is to make a light wooden shield out of darkwood and not a buckler. Once you get the gold issue out of the way, should be no issue really.Why is this even an issue?
Look, darkwood is a semi magical wood. It doesn't exist IRL, so saying what is or is not possible with it is kind of pointless. You have a wood that is described as being as strong per pound as metal, so there's NO reason you couldn't carve it into buckler shape, put a strap on it and call it a day.
I don't think anyone on here is arguing that a real buckler can't be made out of wood.
The issue is that Pathfinder, and D&D 3.x before it, specifically defines what can and can't be made from darkwood. Bucklers, by their game description, cannot be made from darkwood. Any DM is free to change that, of course, and I don't see any particular game imbalance in doing so. But it is a house rule, and so wouldn't be legal for something like Pathfinder Society play. The magic item entry for "mithral buckler" seems to make a specific exception, but then introduces confusion both from its description and from the pricing of the item. So, we end up in a weird place where some DMs might treat it mechanically like a light wooden shield while others might treat it like a buckler. From what I can tell, the bulk of evidence actually more supports the light wooden shield than the buckler.
Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can cast a spell with somatic components using your shield arm, but you lose the buckler's AC bonus until your next turn. You can't make a shield bash with a buckler.
Darkwood: This rare magic wood is as hard as normal wood but very light. Any wooden or mostly wooden item (such as a bow or spear) made from darkwood is considered a masterwork item and weighs only half as much as a normal wooden item of that type. Items not normally made of wood or only partially of wood (such as a battleaxe or a mace) either cannot be made from darkwood or do not gain any special benefit from being made of darkwood. The armor check penalty of a darkwood shield is lessened by 2 compared to an ordinary shield of its type. To determine the price of a darkwood item, use the original weight but add 10 gp per pound to the price of a masterwork version of that item.
So there's nothing to say that you CAN"T make a darkwood mace or battle axe or buckler, but that there should be no real benefit to doing so. So if you had a druid who wanted a buckler and a longspear, they could legally do that but a darkwood buckler that was actually a buckler instead of a light shield would just be a normal, albeit light, buckler.
Darkwood has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 5.
So there's nothing to say that you CAN"T make a darkwood mace or battle axe or buckler, but that there should be no real benefit to doing so. So if you had a druid who wanted a buckler and a longspear, they could legally do that but a darkwood buckler that was actually a buckler instead of a light shield would just be a normal, albeit light, buckler.
Darkwood has 10 hit points per inch of thickness and hardness 5.
True, a druid could have a darkwood buckler, but they'd be better off with just a masterwork wooden buckler since the darkwood buckler cannot provide any benefit, i.e. it doesn't automatically count as masterwork, is not lighter than a normal buckler, and has worse hardness and HP but still costs more.
oddly enough I cant find anything not directly tied to a DnD reference (old or new) about the buckler as a strapped shield, except for something I heard in a lecture on european warfare of the middle ages in college, and I think the professor played DnD too.... har har
it could be something gygax made up adopted and leaked out from there.
but regardless for dnd purposes, bucklers strap to the arm.
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oddly enough I cant find anything not directly tied to a DnD reference (old or new) about the buckler as a strapped shield, except for something I heard in a lecture on european warfare of the middle ages in college, and I think the professor played DnD too.... har har
it could be something gygax made up adopted and leaked out from there.
but regardless for dnd purposes, bucklers strap to the arm.
These shields did exists. Mainly favored in ireland and scotland...but yes a buckler when talking historical shields is an entirely center grip affair.
Do you mean the targe? I generally think of this as more appropriately light wooden shields in Pathfinder, as they were gripped in hand and strapped rather than just strapped on. The fully strapped on shields I've seen are more associated with Nordic cultures, i.e. the target shield I noted above, though I seem to recall some from China or the Middle East as well (my memory is definitely fuzzy on that one).
Do you mean the targe? I generally think of this as more appropriately light wooden shields in Pathfinder, as they were gripped in hand and strapped rather than just strapped on. The fully strapped on shields I've seen are more associated with Nordic cultures, i.e. the target shield I noted above, though I seem to recall some from China or the Middle East as well (my memory is definitely fuzzy on that one).
no memory serves there was a shield that strapped only was quite small and allowed use of the hand (no need to grip it at all.
I think CN was right i was a highlander type shield.
In Serpent Skull 1, Souls for Smuggler's Shiv, there is a +1 darkwood buckler.
This would lead me to believe that Paizo supports darkwood bucklers (or an errata for the adventure is on the way :)).