Instead, they seem to all worship demon lords or archdevils. Here are some examples from various Pathfinder products:
** spoiler omitted **
By comparison, here are the two most powerful clerics I could find that worship actual gods:
** spoiler omitted **
I guess my real point here, is that there seems to be disproportionate love for the demon lords/archdevils. Is a priest of Orcus somehow inherently "cooler" than one of Urgathoa? Is a cleric of Nocticula more intriguing than one of Norgorber?
Or am I just being too nit-picky?
My suspicion is that when building adversaries for the APs, there is a tendency to go for the "Rule of Cool." The abilities and motivations of these clerics are more mysterious as well-- particularly before the publications of Lords of Chaos.
Demons and Devils, additionally, have less invested in the material plane per se-- even evil gods are still gods and to a limited degree (outside of Rovagug) implicated in the status quo. Thus the followers of these demigods have a lot more investment in threatening existence or gaining power for their master.
Also, Mr. Jacobs loves demons.
Aside from demons and devils having the rule of cool, there's also the fact that the more popular gods have churches and temples and it can cause havoc for them when one of their clerics is being the BBEG. I mean, look at Asmodeus. If an 18th level cleric of his isn't his antipope or at least one of a cabal of wicked Satanic cardinals, there comes a question of what heresies he's sponsoring on the side, and what happens when people who don't like this BBEG start taking it out on his more profitable ventures, such as Cheliax.
Wacky little cults very few have heard about don't have these troubles.
+1 Kevin.
If your going to have a BBEG you want him to be as evil as possible for that extra effect. You are going to have to be one crazy mo-fo to worship a demon lord which helps give reason to why they would campaign for the destruction of all life or what ever their doing.
I can think of a level 16 cleric of Lamashtu (with were-hyena adding some to CR as well).
I can think of a level 16 cleric of Lamashtu (with were-hyena adding some to CR as well).
In fact, I can even give you an animated visual of what one of these looks like that I saw yesterday.
Aside from demons and devils having the rule of cool, there's also the fact that the more popular gods have churches and temples and it can cause havoc for them when one of their clerics is being the BBEG. I mean, look at Asmodeus. If an 18th level cleric of his isn't his antipope or at least one of a cabal of wicked Satanic cardinals, there comes a question of what heresies he's sponsoring on the side, and what happens when people who don't like this BBEG start taking it out on his more profitable ventures, such as Cheliax.
Wacky little cults very few have heard about don't have these troubles.
I have to agree, but still, you can always make the BBEG a heretic of some sort and/or simply on the outs with the official hierarchy. "Not make me Antipope of Asmodeua, will they?... I'll conquer [insert name of PC nation here] and build my own power abse! That'll show them!"
Though that's really only a problem with the lawful faiths. The more chaotic ones (Lamashtu, Rovagug, Gorum, and Urgathoa to some extent) probably don't have much o a hierarchy beyond "I'm the strongest prriest in the kingdom, obey me or I'll put the whammy on you."
I can think of a level 16 cleric of Lamashtu (with were-hyena adding some to CR as well).In fact, I can even give you an animated visual of what one of these looks like that I saw yesterday.
You know, I like furry gals and even I think that she was sorta creepy looking. Not to mention scrawny for a gnoll/were-hyena.
You know, I like furry gals and even I think that she was sorta creepy looking. Not to mention scrawny for a gnoll/were-hyena.I can think of a level 16 cleric of Lamashtu (with were-hyena adding some to CR as well).In fact, I can even give you an animated visual of what one of these looks like that I saw yesterday.
Orangina is doing a whole series of furry commercials, including a "Snagglepuss comes out of the closet" one that got banned.
Aside from demons and devils having the rule of cool, there's also the fact that the more popular gods have churches and temples and it can cause havoc for them when one of their clerics is being the BBEG. I mean, look at Asmodeus. If an 18th level cleric of his isn't his antipope or at least one of a cabal of wicked Satanic cardinals, there comes a question of what heresies he's sponsoring on the side, and what happens when people who don't like this BBEG start taking it out on his more profitable ventures, such as Cheliax.
Wacky little cults very few have heard about don't have these troubles.
I have to agree, but still, you can always make the BBEG a heretic of some sort and/or simply on the outs with the official hierarchy. "Not make me Antipope of Asmodeua, will they?... I'll conquer [insert name of PC nation here] and build my own power abse! That'll show them!"
Though that's really only a problem with the lawful faiths. The more chaotic ones (Lamashtu, Rovagug, Gorum, and Urgathoa to some extent) probably don't have much o a hierarchy beyond "I'm the strongest prriest in the kingdom, obey me or I'll put the whammy on you."
Okay, now that's just amusing. You could have a whole Pope in Rome/Pope in Avignon thing going if different Antipopes set up digs in different countries. Just who are the unfaithful supposed to turn to to ensure their eternal damnation?
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I can think of a level 16 cleric of Lamashtu (with were-hyena adding some to CR as well).In fact, I can even give you an animated visual of what one of these looks like that I saw yesterday.
So (based on the other commercials for the product) Orangina turns you into a furry.
Good to know.
*scratches Orangina off the shopping list*
If your going to have a BBEG you want him to be as evil as possible for that extra effect. You are going to have to be one crazy mo-fo to worship a demon lord which helps give reason to why they would campaign for the destruction of all life or what ever their doing.See, that's where I dissagree. How is a demon lord more evil than an evil god? How is a CE cleric of Shax (demon lord/murder) worse than a CE cleric of Norgorber (god/murder)? The way I see it, it's the other way around. Demon lords are small potatoes compared to gods - they think small and act small, because they aren't powerful enough to do anything else.
You are right though, in that you'd have to be pretty psychotic to worship a demon lord. But you'd have to be equally psychotic to worship, say, Rovagug or Zon-Kuthon.
Not necessarily psychotic, just desperate. Many evil (to our POV) entities have been appeased with sacrifice or prayers in human belief systems in history to stave off the terrible things they might otherwise do. Even Apollo was god of disease. And there are quite a few other gods who inflicted pain and suffering on people who didn't worship them. The Evil god simply uses this method as their sole modus operandi.
I agree. I was just saying that worshiping a CE demon lord is no more (or less) insane than worshiping a CE god.
Not necessarily psychotic, just desperate. Many evil (to our POV) entities have been appeased with sacrifice or prayers in human belief systems in history to stave off the terrible things they might otherwise do.
The difference between demon lords and gods is mostly a matter of semantics and membership cards.
GMs shouldn't need to justify why an 18th-level cleric of Asmodeus is coming after the PCs, any more so than he would an 18th-level cleric of Jubilex.
Fervently, vehemently disagree. Badguys, heck, any and all NPC's must must must have a reason for why they're doing what they're doing, and a damn good one. Golarion is a world of nations with laws and societal structures, of realistic motives and understandable personalities. Asmodeus is a God of rigid, unbending evil order. Kicking puppies and sending big badguys chasing after PC's isn't something he does for the Lulz. He thinks in millennial terms and has plans within plans within plans.
If a high level Cleric of Asmodeus is coming after you, then he's got a reason. A big reason, and he's probably bringing the equivalent of half his church with him. Asmodeus isn't a mustache-twirling villain, he's Satan-Hitler-Machiavelli with an army of Faust's dancing on the end of his strings. Big long-term thinkers and planners and tyrants don't do ANYTHING without a proper justification. Otherwise, all their plans go to shambles really quick, and they become the laughing stock of the evil community.
Maybe without a large established support structure, these worshipers of minor deities and such need to get their hands dirty more, leading to quicker leveling than the Antipope of Asmodeus who once reaching a certain status had plenty of underlings to do his dirty work, so at a point his leveling slowed down.
Lots of stuff.Lots more stuff, but no less valid.
I get what you're saying, but that begs the question: if you're not going to use the societal and in depth trappings of the world to their full extent, why use the world? Of course every GM must needs customize Golarion to their own preferences, so there is that. For one: the number of official NPC's in Golarion in the 15-20th level range in any given nation (Canonically) can probably be counted on one hand. So to my brain, if you're meeting a 20th level Asmodean cleric, he's probably the head of an entire wing of the church.
For me, there's no point in using servants of a given deity as antagonists unless I'm using them in a manner that fits with what the setting has put down about them, and I tend to obsessively read the world information that's out there. If I'm going to be using an Asmodean cleric, he's probably going to be affiliated with the official Chelaxian church, and he's probably going to have a massive army of retainers, servants, bodyguards and hangers on going wherever he goes.
I will say that I don't like using the reasoning of "Even if it doesn't make sense, it's all part of the plan anyway" though. That seems like a cop-out.
But what works for A does not always work for B. ^_^
I would agree that an errant cleric makes an excellent adversary, though... But even in that case, there's going to be a machiavellian plan behind why he's doing what he's doing, and I'm going to know exactly what it is, because for me, that's how Asmodeus and his servants roll.
If I want a BBEG whose out to kill babies to get his jollies, there's plenty of chaotic Gods that fit the bill better.
I honestly think that the above is a bit of a false extrapolation. If you read the early AP adventures, you might think that Lamashtu was the main evil in the whole setting, but clerics and worshipers of her tapered off after a while.
I think the clerics following demon lords and the like mean that so far, in the high level adventures that Paizo has published, which hasn't been their main focus, thematically it has made more sense for the clerics to be more "cultish" than belonging to a more traditional faith.
I could easily see a high level adventure with a follower of Urgathoa or Rovagug, or even Lamashtu in the villains role. I don't think a sampling of a few high level adventures can be considered a predictive index of who the most powerful divine casters in the setting are.
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I feel that one has to put these In context first (spoilers for various products)
-From "The Witchwar Legacy": Shathbardok, a giant gnarled ice troll cleric of Kostchtchie 15. Challenge rating 18.
Well since the creatures there are men that have been sent by Sharthbardock to reclaim his Torc It makes sense to me that any clerics there would be his followers
-From "The Twicedamned Prince": Lady Kaltessa Iyis, a human cleric of Mammon 10/Diabolist 10. Challenge rating 20.
Who was introduced in an article about Mammon as an example of one of his most powerful followers
-From "Descent Into Midnight": Allevrah Azrinae, a drow cleric of Abraxus 12/demonic disciple 5. Challenge rating 19.
She was a follower of an elven god (cant remember which right now) but when she turned into a drow she began to worship who the drow Worship (ie demon lords) and in regards to what was happening Abraxus seems more appropriate than Lahmashu in this case
-From "Into the Darklands": Kortash Khain, a ghoul sorcerer 6/cleric of Kabriri6/mystic theurge 10. Challenge rating approximately 22.
Who is the high priest In a city that entire population worships the thing. (I do agree this one seems strangely high lvl though)
I think the clerics following demon lords and the like mean that so far, in the high level adventures that Paizo has published, which hasn't been their main focus, thematically it has made more sense for the clerics to be more "cultish" than belonging to a more traditional faith.I could easily see a high level adventure with a follower of Urgathoa or Rovagug, or even Lamashtu in the villains role. I don't think a sampling of a few high level adventures can be considered a predictive index of who the most powerful divine casters in the setting are.
Perhaps I am unfairly picking on Paizo, to an extent, but my issue is broader. Here is a sentiment I've heard before (not an exact quote of course): "Let's make an adventure where the PCs have to ally with the church of Urgathoa to stop an even worse cult of Orcus." Gah! How is Orcus worse than Urgathoa? Why is Orcus so much cooler/more evil/more heinous than the GODDESS OF DEATH?
...(snip)
Mythologically speaking, a god represents in her portfolio natural or cultural concepts-- they embody them in the world. A demon or devil has come to mean an anti-god. The word god, even if applied to an evil thing in an invented mythology still has much more positive connotations than either demon or devil. Ares might be an evil god, but he is still a god, as opposed to the universe-threatening Titans. (The missionaries to pagan Europe similarly redefined many pagan gods as devils or demons). The weight of this implication I think lies behind the reason why villains are traditionally associated with the Abyssal and Infernal legions in the PF and D&D universes.
I think it is all right for Asmodeus´ clerics that they are not the main villains in the adventures - the faith would not be my prime candidate for some random plot that requires a high-level cleric to get into danger himself. Asmodean clerics are more politicians than adventurers IMO. They set some plot into motion and watch from afar, letting the danger and risk be resting on others shoulders and reaping the rewards afterwards.
Say there is a dungeon with an old, presently closed gate to hell. While an Asmodean could go there himself and open it up again, he would put himself in danger, as somebody probably watches the gate to deny access. If he gets some demon-worshipping cult to try and reach the gate, perhaps by spreading the misleading information that it is really some demonic gate, he has the cult and the gates´ guardians at each others throats. Then, the weakened cult sets up shop there, in turn drawing the attention of some adventurers battling the cult and winning, finding the misleading information containing a fake means of destroying the gate, which reactivates it instead, summoning devils to fight the adventurers. If the adventurers don´t reopen the gate, but report to the nearest authorities instead, these authorities should contain minor Asmodeans who promise to "take care" if the Church played its cards right. So, the Asmodean cleric gets rid of the guardian, the demonic cult and probably some adventurers, plus if his luck is really great, duping the adventurers into opening the gate (any Paladins among the group? Yes? Too bad...), without ever coming close to the gate until long after any danger is gone. Much better than risking his own hide, and explaining why a demonic cult is there for the adventurers to fight.
Stefan
It's like this: Gods are part of pantheons. Loki may be a jerk, CE and all that, from the giants and so forth, but he's Odin's foster brother, and even after the death of Balder and the knowledge of the impending doom of Ragnarok, it's pretty much a family affair, up to an including families marrying in. Frey and Freya were part of the Vanir until the Vanir married in with the Aesir. Hela is still Loki's daughter and is somewhat more socially acceptable than her brothers Fenris and Jormungandr.
Demons and devils, OTOH, are part of Judeo-Christian cosmology where the hierarchy of Hell mirrors the hierarchy of Heaven, with Archangels opposed by Archdevils, regular angels (of which there are many different sorts) opposed by devils, and even cherubs opposed by imps. There's also some obvious syncretization where old gods are incorporated into the pantheon in one place or another. Lilith, who predates the bible by a long bit, comes in in various places, including being one of the eight archdevils of the Qlippoth, the devil's wife, etc. Ishtar gets a makeover as Ashtaroth while on the other side of the aisle, the goddess Horsel becomes St. Ursula, the goddess Brigid becomes St. Brigid and so on.
From a D&D/Pathfinder perspective, the difference between a god and a demon/devil is which pantheon they're participating in. If they're acting as part of the fractious family of the gods, then they're a god. If their part of the hierarchy of Hell or Heaven, then they're a devil, demon or angel. Yes, they can wear two hats, as with Asmodeus and Lamashtu, and it should be noted that Lamashtu shares a lot in common with Lilith in mythology, since I believe the oldest name is Lilitu.
In Golarion, it should be noted that Zon-Kuthon is a god and not a devil or demon because he started out as a god and went bad and is still brother to Shelyn. Other gods are ascended mortals, and there are even saints and apostles even if they're not called that like Cayden Cailean's herald who started out as a friend of his from his mortal days and he just asked her soul to be his herald after she died, as he was a god now and needed someone he could trust.
how can an entity, predate a document recording the history of the creation of existence?
there wasn't even light, before God creates it, and it is recorded in the bible as such.
So are you saying lillith comes about between the actual creation of existence and it's physical recording in that existance? (the writings of moses) so there fore predates the actual documentation but not the act?
Or are you trying to say that the entity pre exists creation?
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how can an entity, predate a document recording the history of the creation of existence?
there wasn't even light, before God creates it, and it is recorded in the bible as such.
So are you saying lillith comes about between the actual creation of existence and it's physical recording in that existance? (the writings of moses) so there fore predates the actual documentation but not the act?
Or are you trying to say that the entity pre exists creation?
You do realize that even in Christian mythology, there was quite a long time span between "Let there be light" and Moses, right? It's not like Yahweh created Adam, and as his first command said "Write this $#!* down". There was a whole lot of begetting between Adam and Moses.
As for predating creation, well, they mythology assumes that Yahweh did. Must have been a pretty boring eternity before he got around to creating something other than himself. :P
how can an entity, predate a document recording the history of the creation of existence?
there wasn't even light, before God creates it, and it is recorded in the bible as such.
So are you saying lillith comes about between the actual creation of existence and it's physical recording in that existance? (the writings of moses) so there fore predates the actual documentation but not the act?
Or are you trying to say that the entity pre exists creation?
I'm saying that Lilith or at least the lilitu demons were around in Babylonian mythology independent of their mention in the bible and I don't give the account of creation in the Book of Genesis any more weight than I do the account of creation in the Epic of Gilgamesh where Lilith is the dark maid who made a treehouse in the branches of the Inanna's willow tree.
Or to put it another way, we have two different documents recording the creation of existence. In both stories, there's a tree. In one it's a willow, in the other, an apple (or maybe a pomegranate depending on which translation you look at). One has a naughty demon woman in the branches and a dragon in the roots. The other has a serpent in the branches and the woman is a nice if ditzy girl (though there are stories that the bad girl was originally in this story too but got cut out).
Given the geographic proximity of Israel and Babylon, it's hardly surprising that their creation myths bear some resemblance to each other.
Do I believe either of them? No. I think they're old stories that are fun to tell, and have been been told many times over over the centuries.
These parallels are not surprising, given the Babylonian Exile.
Creative Director
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Well... in Golarion, demon lords and archdevils ARE gods. And they show up attached to clerics a lot in our products because we stat up a disproportionate amount of bad guys as opposed to good guys (which is the job of your players, honestly). As a result, we skew toward evil deities, and that means that we often dip into the demon/devil/etc. well.
That said, we actually HAVE done a lot of non-demon bad guy clerics. In fact, I can't think of a single evil deity from the core 20 who hasn't had at least one adventure dedicated to him or her (and thus, an adventure with clerics of that deity).
Asmodeus: All of the Council of Thieves Adventure path
Lamashtu: Several Rise of the Runelords APs, some of Legacy of Fire
Norgober: The Skinsaw Murders
Rovagug: House of the Beast, several other Legacy of Fire adventures
Urgathoa: Seven Days to the Grave, several Carrion Crown adventures
Zon-Kuthon: Curse of the Crimson Throne
And then there's Serpent's Skull, which has TONS of Ydersius clerics.
I'd love to see an adventure featuring a Groetus cleric of cult.
Here is a sentiment I've heard before (not an exact quote of course): "Let's make an adventure where the PCs have to ally with the church of Urgathoa to stop an even worse cult of Orcus." Gah! How is Orcus worse than Urgathoa? Why is Orcus so much cooler/more evil/more heinous than the GODDESS OF DEATH?
The actual quote of mine (in response to Book of the Damned 2) was:
"I hope that Orcus gets some love along with the Golarian specific demon lords. I am still convinced that an adventure/adventure path where the PCs have to ally with the church of Urgathoa to defeat an even viler cult of Orcus would be a winner :)"
The main reason he is cooler is becuse he brings with him all his cool history: The Bloodstone series, Necromancer Games' Rappan Athuk and Tomb of Abysor, The adventure Headless in Dungeon Magazine, The Great Modron March/Dead Gods, and all the references to him and Moil in the Return to the Tomb of Horrors. So far all Urgathoa has is a few paragraphs. That and he has the Wand of Death :)
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Creative Director
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I also came to another conclusion, that may or may not be valid. Maybe the reason Paizo hasn't named Asmodeus's most powerful high priest (or any other god's highest priest, for that matter) is because doing so essentially creates a roof.
Correct.
If we ever DO mention "the most powerful" of anything, it'll be in the context of an Adventure Path or something. Even then, we really try to avoid that kind of hyperbole... to the extent of saying "this is the tallest mountain" or "this is the oldest elf" or ANYTHING like that, since we don't want to pinch off story ideas that we might not have had yet. Far better to say "this is one of the tallest mountains" or "This is one of the oldest elves" or "this is one of the most powerful priests."
And if you have a level 20 NPC anywhere, it is pretty obvious that she is one of the most powerful "whatever" around - or at least, it should be.
Heh, I was somewhat hoping that no one actually recognized that quote, because it could have seemed snarky. In other words, there was no offense intended.I appreciate your opinion more now that I see where you're coming from. I'm also a fan of Orcus - Dead Gods is one of my most prized 2nd edition books.
Absolutely no offense taken - glad at least one person reads my occasional posts :)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Regading the established, Lawful Evil churches:
In his preface to The Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis explains his vision of Hell as the worst kind of office politics, where every diabolic entity urges his minions to betray one another for the finite amount of favors he provides, while in turn giving enthusiastic lip service to his own hated superior, always looking for an opportunity to backstab him when it's possible to blame the betrayal on a colleague.
If that's what the church of Asmodeus is like, then I imagine that the best allies against a high-level cleric would be her chief subordinate and her own most ambitious rival for their boss's attention.
Regading the established, Lawful Evil churches:
In his preface to The Screwtape Letters, C.S. Lewis explains his vision of Hell as the worst kind of office politics, where every diabolic entity urges his minions to betray one another for the finite amount of favors he provides, while in turn giving enthusiastic lip service to his own hated superior, always looking for an opportunity to backstab him when it's possible to blame the betrayal on a colleague.
If that's what the church of Asmodeus is like, then I imagine that the best allies against a high-level cleric would be her chief subordinate and her own most ambitious rival for their boss's attention.
Not only do I love that book, but you are correct, that would fit in very well with Asmodeus' church, at least from my point of view.