Does the monk add an extra attack for each extra arm to the number of attacks they get with the flurry?
No. The flurry of blows only gives the number of attacks it states it gives, and doesn't stack with or work with multi-attack or multi-weapon fighting.
Does the monk add an extra attack for each extra arm to the number of attacks they get with the flurry?That is interesting. It is hard to say. Multiweapon fighting auto replaces two weapon fighting if you have more than two arms. So with a ranger, it would automatically replace twf as you actually get the feat. But the monk's flurry functions as twf but is not actually twf so I suspect you would not get more off hand attacks. Sadly.
Interesting.
However, Paizo is often cited as stating that if an ability is quoted as "functions like X" then said ability is subject to all the same effects that would apply to ability 'x'.
For example as stated in another thread. The oracle can gain an ability that "functions as Channel Energy" And that ability can be enhanced by any feats, etc. that can enhance Channel Energy.
So if Flurry "functions like TWF"(correct me if I'm wrong on that. No book in front of me.) And Multiweapon fighting auto replaces TWF then it SHOULD also work for flurry of blows granting extra off-hand attacks.
Hmmm gonna have to look deeper into this....
No. The flurry of blows only gives the number of attacks it states it gives, and doesn't stack with or work with multi-attack or multi-weapon fighting.
Is that stated somewhere I can reference?
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(correct me if I'm wrong on that. No book in front of me.)
Hmmm gonna have to look deeper into this....
If its a rules issue, you always have your book in front of you if you have access to the paizo website. here
Yar!
For Multi-attack: in the Monk class, under "Flurry of Blows", it states:
PRD Flurry of Blows[/url]]A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.
For multi-weapon-fighting: if it replaced two-weapon fighting, and the monk's flurry acts as TWF, let me ask you this: Can you take TWF twice to get double the benefit? No? Then why would Multi-attack stack with Flurry if both replace/act as TWF?
(replace and "acts as" are not exactly the same, but their similarity in this case is such that I would say "no, they do not work together")
~P
No. The flurry of blows only gives the number of attacks it states it gives, and doesn't stack with or work with multi-attack or multi-weapon fighting.Is that stated somewhere I can reference?
Here's what I got for you, not because I'm a jerk, but because the explanation is a bit long and drawn out:
First -- multi-attack only works with natural weapons (primarily secondary natural weapons), flurry of blows specifically prohibits natural weapons from being used with it.
Next -- Monk's Unarmed Strike and Flurry of blows states it doesn't matter what you use to make the blow with, meaning it could be your arm, shoulder, leg, head, pelvis or second right hand -- it doesn't matter, it deals the amount of damage stated.
Now multi weapon fighting does state that it replaces two weapon fighting for creatures with multiple limbs -- and as mentioned by pirate "replaces" and "acts as" are not the same thing -- Flurry of blows "acts as" two weapon fighting -- with several important exceptions, exclusions and benefits added it. It is not two weapon fighting though. It doesn't count as the feat, doesn't replace the feat and doesn't qualify you for things the feat qualifies you for. As such it isn't replaced with multi weapon fighting.
In fact flurry of blows is its own special full round action that replaces a monk's normal full attack under special circumstances.
I think you guys are giving too much attention to multiattack being in the subject of the thread. I think it was a typo and he meant to only discuss multiweapon attack.
Also you guys should drop the attitude that you are giving for free in addition to the information on his question.
On the first part I have covered his question and the idea that he meant to ask about multi weapon fighting.
On the second I don't understand what you are trying to say.
yar.
As for Multi attack being a typo? I was going simply by what was being posted. Abe posted a quick and simple answer right away in regards to the OP (the post, not the title), and then proceeded to mentioned "...and doesn't stack with or work with multi-attack or multi-weapon fighting."
The OP then quoted that exact response and requested citation and explanation, and that is what we did.
To keep this post on topic, I will reiterate that I agree with Abe in that Flurry is it's own special action and by the fact that you can use any combination of limbs & weapons, the number of limbs you actually have do not change the number of attacks that you can make.
~P
yar.
To keep this post on topic, I will reiterate that I agree with Abe in that Flurry is it's own special action and by the fact that you can use any combination of limbs & weapons, the number of limbs you actually have do not change the number of attacks that you can make.
~P
I originally posted this because I was toying with the idea for an NPC and because I'm at at work so I have no books or time to research.
So thank thank you all very much for your time and input :D
I have to agree with the examples of the rules provided and the general consensus of the group.
Apparently one is better off, if you want lots of iterative attacks and have a freakish number of arms, to focus on Multi attack or multi weapon fighting than the monks Flurry ability.
That said having a template or a special rule for a monster to get extra attacks wouldn't be completely out of line either -- but I wouldn't make it a normal thing.
You can combine natural attacks and manufactured weapons/unarmed attacks but you take a penalty to the secondary or off-hand attacks. Note I'm assuming that the creature has natural weaponry of some sort.
Let's assume a Ghoul Monk 1 for the sake of argument because he's easier to illustrate
Method 1:
The monk has one base unarmed attack due to BAB (or two with flurry of blows).
Applying weapon finesse (+2) and flurry penalties (-1) to a BAB of 1 means that the Ghoul Monk has an unarmed flurry of +2/+2 D6+1
He loses a natural attack and his other natural attacks become secondary and are resolved at -5 to BAB (1 + 2 Finesse -5 secondary = -2).
End attack run:
Unarmed Flurry +2/+2 D6+1
Claw -2 D6 (secondary attacks have 1/2 strength bonus)
Bite -2 D6
Overall not very satisfying
Method 2:
Unarmed attack is treated as a off-hand attack with a light weapon (-4 to hit) however base damage does not change.
Bite -1 (D6+1)
2 Claw -1 (D6+1)
Offhanded Unarmed Attack -1 (d6)
Also not super satisfying.
It's really only when you get into creatures with a big BAB and some way of negating offhand penalties (Example a Marilith Monk) that this really becomes a viable attack option.
Vuron you are wrong -- You can not ever mix natural attacks with a flurry of blows -- it is specifically and explicitly prohibited.
Vuron you are wrong -- You can not ever mix natural attacks with a flurry of blows -- it is specifically and explicitly prohibited.
Ahh that's right, I was thinking unarmed attacks and natural weapons which is okay.
Vuron you are wrong -- You can not ever mix natural attacks with a flurry of blows -- it is specifically and explicitly prohibited.Ahh that's right, I was thinking unarmed attacks and natural weapons which is okay.
No problem such happens.
So is it the case that Flurry of Blows is dependant on the BAB, and not the number of limbs the creature has?
That seems to be the wording of the rules, but does it make sense with a creature with more than two limbs? Do you folks think it would be overpowered, if a PC with more than two limbs was just allowed to make one extra attack (with the penalties in multiweapon fighting) when he flurries?
With how flurry works, more limbs doesnt mean more attacks. Think about it, just a human being can attack with at least 5 different 'limbs' not counting variations, 2 arms, 2 legs, headbutt. But it still operates as if they only had two. I dont see why adding 2 more arms suddenly changes that.
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The number of attacks a monk using FoB receives follows the exact same pattern as any full BAB class with TWF.
The only diffence is when improved TWF and GTWF become available. A full BAB character spending feats can get them earlier.
As an aside: if you have a large number of unarmed strikes and multi-attack, you can forgo FOB and receive a larger number of attacks at a lower BAB while continuing to use the monks increased base damage.