Hi Guys.
I've recently converted from 3.5 to Pathfinder. My group are not power gamers and we rarely level past about level 10. We are loving the system so far, though we miss some of our favorite classes and feats. So, i'm toying with converting the Duskblade over to Pathfinder. I was just wondering how people who have done this themselves have handled the Arcane Channeling ability.
My main concern is that at 6th level a Duskblade could get the Vital Strike feat. If he was armed with a Greatsword, using a standard action and the Vital Strike feat would deal 4d6 damage average 14 before modifiers). If a Duskblade used that same action to use his Arcane Channeling and channeled Burning Hands he would deal 2d6 + 5d4 (average 17 before modifiers) Is that enough of a damage boost for expending some of his daily resources?
This was a powerful ability in 3.5 because of how action economy worked, it was a big improvement over what a fighter could do with a standard action. Should a Duskblade be able to use Vital Strike (or potentially other action economy feats such as cleave) while using Arcane Channeling?
I'd love to hear some comments from people who are more experienced with Pathfinder than I am.
Cheers
I am not familiar with the duskblade, but if arcane channeling specifies a standard action, it cannot be used with vital strike, cleave, etc.
I am not familiar with the duskblade, but if arcane channeling specifies a standard action, it cannot be used with vital strike, cleave, etc.
Arcane Channeling (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, you can use a standard action to cast any touch spell you know and deliver the spell through your weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved.
At 13th level, you can cast any touch spell you know as part of a full attack action, and the spell affects each target you hit in melee combat that round. Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round.Yeah, I understand that as written the ability could not be used with Vital Strike, etc. I'm wondering that in a Pathfinder environment, is the ability powerful enough now that feats like Vital Strike exist? Arcane Channeling is the core ability of the class, and as such I feel that it should be a powerful ability. I am wondering if people had any thoughts of changing the wording of Arcane Channeling to allow it to work with feats like Vital Strike?
Cheers
Well, for starters, you could not use it with burning hands (it's a cone). Yes, it is still a good ability, especially if the duskblade got touch range debuffs (Touch of Idiocy or Bestow Curse, for example).
Well, for starters, you could not use it with burning hands (it's a cone). Yes, it is still a good ability, especially if the duskblade got touch range debuffs (Touch of Idiocy or Bestow Curse, for example).
Doh, that was a bad example. Just pretend I said Shocking Grasp. That means slightly more damage (17 average).
As for debuffs, it is not really a strength of the Duskblade. Looking at the spell list its got - Chill Touch, Ghoul Touch, Touch of Idiocy, a touch version of Dispel Magic and thats about it for touch debuffs.
And touch damage spells?
And touch damage spells?
Aye, it does have touch damage spells. That's really the whole theme of the class. It is like a fighter that trades feats and survivability (lower Hit Points and less armour) for extra damage. My concern is that now it doesn't have anywhere near the extra damage output (compared to other melee classes) to make it worthwhile.
The touch damage spells available are - Chill Touch and Shocking Grasp (available at 1st level), Ghoul Touch (5th level), and Vampiric Touch (9th level).
Without it's theme of being a burst damage class, I'm concerened that now it will play like a slightly gimped fighter (less survivability, less damage, less feats but more adaptable - burning hands, swift fly, etc).
Cheers
I've found a little info on it online, and I am concerned that it is underpowered by PF standards. Feats can help, but giving it bonus feats is kind of shallow. I would give it a d10 HD (pathfinder standardized BAB/HD). I will have to think of what to do to make it better. I hope to have better advice by tomorrow.
After doing more research, the class isn't as bad off as I thought. They get a lot of spells per day, and with the ability to channel vampiric touch through your melee atacks is pretty good, made better when you reach level 13 when you could get 30-40d6 temp HP (temp hp stacks!). But you already know this. I would take out arcane attunement, it's pretty much useless in pahfinder, you can use cantrips at-will as it is. I would give it an arcane bond at first level (must be a weapon). Also Arcane armor training (heavy) at 7th level. It needs a good capstone ability, I'd have to think on that a bit more. Many of it's spells need updated to pathfinder.
Also, I would look at the Arcane Duelist arc-type for a similar concept.
Hope this is helpful.
After doing more research, the class isn't as bad off as I thought. They get a lot of spells per day, and with the ability to channel vampiric touch through your melee atacks is pretty good, made better when you reach level 13 when you could get 30-40d6 temp HP (temp hp stacks!). But you already know this. I would take out arcane attunement, it's pretty much useless in pahfinder, you can use cantrips at-will as it is. I would give it an arcane bond at first level (must be a weapon). Also Arcane armor training (heavy) at 7th level. It needs a good capstone ability, I'd have to think on that a bit more. Many of it's spells need updated to pathfinder.
Also, I would look at the Arcane Duelist arc-type for a similar concept.
Hope this is helpful.
Thanks for the suggestions.
I hadn't thought of giving the class an arcane bond. Interesting idea. I had decided to scrap Arcane Attunement (just giving them the spells as known cantrips). I worry that Arcane Armour Training (heavy) would be under used by the class. It needs to stay mobile to do its job, and be better suited to light or medium armour (I know I stated that I worry about the class' survivability, I'm just not sure that Heavy Armour is the key to fixing that possible problem).
I had been looking at keeping the spell list as is, I don't think that may of the spells will require any major conversion (other than possibly the Bigby spells), though I'll look through the core spells and the APG to see if there are any thematic touch spells that I could add.
I agree that the class should have a capstone ability, though I have never had a campaign last long enough for that to matter (I typically play sub level 12).
I'd still worry that the class doesn't deal enough damage to warrant its current incarnation. Perhaps the spell list should be changed to allow it more versatility? Eh, perhaps I'm over estimating the damage that melee classes deal in Pathfinder, but I don't see (in my fairly limited Pathfinder experience) how this class will keep up with a fighter in damage dealing, despite dealing damage being the core aspect of the Duskblade.
I do appreciate the ideas, and the feedback from someone with undoubtedly more experience in Pathfinder than myself.
Cheers
Or you could try the Magus, which is Duskblade-ish.
Aye, I probably would if the book was out. Problem is I am planning on running my first adventure path (Kingmaker FYI) under the Pathfinder rules in early Feb so I'd like to have something concrete to show the player interested in the Duskblade before then.
Cheers
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Or you could try the Magus, which is Duskblade-ish.Aye, I probably would if the book was out. Problem is I am planning on running my first adventure path (Kingmaker FYI) under the Pathfinder rules in early Feb so I'd like to have something concrete to show the player interested in the Duskblade before then.
Cheers
The revised playtest version of Magus is up for download on Paizo website. The feedback was so far positive.
As for damage dealing, that depends on the player. You will be a little behind the fighter's static bonuses (up to +6) but with that many spells known, augmented by a ring of wizardry III, damage potential can get pretty good (esp. at 13th level, but if you are usually below 12, that is a moot point). Arcane Strike is a good feat for the class, It almost makes up for the fighter's damage, in exchange for a swift action.
Fist off the Duskblade Still needs 1 free hand to cast with when Arcane Channeling. So you no Two Hand Great sword and this Channeling. So you stuck with one hand weapons Ie Long sword so that 2d8+5d6+ BFN.
With is not much better than rouge with team Work Precise Strike and enlarge Person. Which Rouge 6th level can do all day long and get full attack routing. Ie 2d6+4d6+BFN.
And Yes you can do a swift and Vital Strike. If you do not like that then do not let DuskBlade in to your pathfinder game. I love Duskblade class if porting them in to path finder I would give them ¾ BaB and D8 Hit dice to even there power level out.
PS on side not 1 level of Warmage plus DuskBlade till you can get in to Spell Sword and take it to level 4. With Practiced Spell Caster feat for Warmage is great Gish Build.
BFN Big Fat Number
As for damage dealing, that depends on the player. You will be a little behind the fighter's static bonuses (up to +6) but with that many spells known, augmented by a ring of wizardry III, damage potential can get pretty good (esp. at 13th level, but if you are usually below 12, that is a moot point). Arcane Strike is a good feat for the class, It almost makes up for the fighter's damage, in exchange for a swift action.
Ring Wizardy will not help Duskblade cause it cast like Bard/Sorcer.
Letting one hand go off holding a two-handed weapon is a free action, so a Duskblade can arcane channel with a greatsword.
Let go is free but regripping is not. It same as pulling a weapon ie move action. Or verey lest free action. Wich you still only get one per round.
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Letting one hand go off holding a two-handed weapon is a free action, so a Duskblade can arcane channel with a greatsword.Let go is free but regripping is not. It same as pulling a weapon ie move action. Or verey lest free action. Wich you still only get one per round.
Assuming it's a free action (and it should be - as it takes even less time than producing a ball of bat guano from your spell component pouch), then you aren't limited RAW with a number of those:
Free Actions
Free actions don't take any time at all, though there may be limits to the number of free actions you can perform in a turn. Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. Some common free actions are described below.
It's the swift actions that are limited to one per turn. Of course, a GM can be anal and say that you can't but hey, gimping Duskblades is not cool.
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You might also want to check out the
Vanguard from Super Genius Games.
It's actually probably even more in the same vein as the Duskblade.
You can both let go and re-grip as a free action, this has been clarified in another thread. Switching hands is also a free action, which means that if he is wielding both light shield or buckler, he can switch his weapon to his off hand, cast, and switch the weapon back (this was an actual example provided by Jacobs). Rings of Wizardry can only be used by arcane casters, and double spells per day, nothing about having to prepare spells (trust me, I checked).
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I felt it was better to do thread necromancy on this than do another thread, hope you all agree.
I will begin King Maker tonight. The DM gave me an ok to do DB but we have not yet sit down together to convert it so I am not sure we are on the same page yet. Some of these items I had not even brought up yet. Hope to get some feedback from you all before sitting down at the game. Now I have to hope I can convince him to do a little Book of Nine Swords so I can get some Jade Pheonix Mage action in.
I want to begin with mentioning why I prefer the idea of playing DB over magus. I like that DB does what it is meant to do. Full bab and no provoking. I seriously question how oven the magus hits with 3/4 when it has to throw points into int unlike other full bab classes. Spell combat may keep the spell a touch attack but taking -2 on all your weapon strikes and provoking just screams AoO/fail & miss to me. I will hand it to paizo for making the class seem interesting with many options like arcanumes but I do not think all the bells and whistles matter when I do not see them reliably hitting on a regular basis. I also found the Spontanious casting nice.
Do I understand right that magus spell strike does not provoke attacks of opportunity but spell combat does?
Can anyone find the 3.5 feat that was something like hit someone with an attack and increase your next spell dc against them and alternatively, hit someone with your spell and get + 2 on your next attack against them? I think it was oddly placed in monster manual 4 or 5 with some premade hobgoblin duck blades. I cannot find my copy of the book and don't even remember the name.
What do you all think about quick cast? I think it is inline with PF considering it is a magus arcanum option. What about the ability to do it multiple times a day compared to the magus only being able to do it once a day? I don't really see it being a problem myself. If someone does see it as a problem, I would suggest taking the extra quick casts at levels 10, 15, & 20 as other magus arcanum options.
About capstones, I doubt I would ever get to level 20 but if I did, I just settle for the same thing an eldritch knight or magus gets as their capstones. I understand the magus has the capstone based off spell combat but I would settle for the choice to just increase the dc or get a bonus to hit or spell penetration. Any other ideas?
Something I would like to add to the class is a 0-level spell. I called it match stick. It was like ray of frost or acid splash but for mellee attacks so it could be used with arcane channel or spell strike. With can trips being unlimited, I wonder if it might now be too good. Maybe at low levels when even the DB only has so many spells a day. I thought maybe useing it to replace arcane attunment might be a good idea. Use it a number of times a day as arcane attunment that is, the same standard formula of 3 + spell casting stat modifier for many wiz/clr abilities.
I am doing a dwarf with either a dwarven war axe or a maul from complete warrior so this next topic is of particular interest to me. A 3.5 feat called somatic weaponry allowed you to do the gestures of spell casting with your weapon. Sounds to me like you could use it with a 2 handed weapon or one handed weapon and another hand in a heavy shield. Any disagree? I happen to be in the camp that james' answer was bad. It would have made more sense to just cast the spell in the light shield free hand rather than switching stuff around. I think switching from only holding something too heavy to correctly use with one hand to fully grasping it to wield again should be a move action, specifically the manipulate item move action. I also think it might be fair to reduce it to a swift action if bab is at least +1 or +6. Quick draw also works for me. Maybe a trait could do it(really hope to hear your feedback on it as a trait)? At least for weapons like the bastard sword, dwarven war axe, maul and katana. Or should those weapons just do it for free. Weapon cords from the APG also make this a fuzzy issue. They can go from hanging off your wrist to back imposition to swing in only a swift action. DBs getting the chance to use a heavy shield and still cast arcane spells freely really make this topic interesting to me.
Do you all think the DB should get heavy armor spell casting for free as part of the class at a certain level or still have to take the feat like they did in 3.5, same as a warmage?
RML
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So the JPM and other Bo9S is out but I still look forward to the campaign. Seems the GM is fine with not having to convert anything and just let it run as is. I can deal with that. This campaign should last a good while so I can finally get 3rd and 4th level spells for a change.
So any thoughts are still welcome.
I also learned last night that requireing a free hand is not just for somatic components, somtimes it is hor grabbing the material components, that may make doing spellcasting from an spell strike or a arcane channel more problematic when using a two-handed weapon. Even a shild may may it hard to grab a spell component when that is the free hand you have. I think it might be best to hand wave it in the case of the shield as the rules do not seem to want to get that nitty grity about the somatic process. Maybe it is wrong to think of the ability to cast with a shield while doing a arcane channel. Maybe that was meant more for casting a spell while the weapon is still in uindrawn.