Long Spear Rogue

[Eric Mason 37]

I'm considering making a long spear weilding rogue for our upcoming Kingmaker campaign. (We're nearing the end of Mother of Flies in CoT.) The rest of the party currently looks like a fighter, sorcerer, and druid.

I'd like to be a combination of melee support for the fighter, and face for the party.

We're currently slated for 20 point buy. Just Pathfinder books. I'm going human since they are plentiful, and get the extra skill point and bonus feat.

I've never used a reach weapon melee combatant before, so the long spear isn't negotiable ;)

I'm not interested in multi-classing either. I'd like to show that a pure rogue is a viable choice. No one in our group has ever done one.

Str 14 (5 pts) + 2 Human stat bonus = 16
Dex 14 (5 pts)
Con 14 (5 pts)
Int 10 (0 pts)
Wis 12 (2 pts)
Cha 13 (3 pts)

At level 4, up charisma. All further stat bonuses to strength. All favoured class bonuses as hit points.

Human bonus feat: Improved Initiative
1: Combat Reflexes
2 (talent): Weapon Training (Long Spear)
3: Power Attack
4 (talent): Combat Trick (Cleave)
5: Skill Focus Acrobatics
6 (talent): Resiliency
7: Dodge
8 (talent): ?
9: Mobility
10 (advanced talent): Opportunist
11: Acrobatic
12: (advanced talent): Crippling Strike

No clue past level 12.

Starting Skills:
Acrobatics
Perception
Stealth
Diplomacy
Bluff
Intimidate
Knowledge Local
Disable Device
Sense Motive

I'm going to need acrobatics to deal with people inside my threat range, so I'm not sure if I should try to get skill focus earlier. However that means shifting something else to later...

We are using traits:
Armour Expert (with the 1 point reduction of armour check penalty, I can wear a mithral breastplate without needing armour proficiency medium)

Noble Born - House Medvyed (+2 diplomacy with fey, and +1 will vs fey spells and super natural abilities)

Concept:
This guy had a mixed bag of education growing up. He was in the military, but his family couldn't afford an officer's commission, so he was in the ranks. This proved a bit problematic with a noble name as the other soldiers were either mistrustful, or hostile toward him. Eventually however he got a position as a batman to a distant family member, which opened his world to minor politics, and aquisitioning, both inside and outside proper channels.

Inevitably something went wrong, and to save face, his officer hung him out to dry. A good batman is useful, but essentially disposable. This scuttled his military career, such as it was. It has left him with a taste for power, but also a certain bitterness toward those who don't treat their underlings with respect.

Any one have any suggestions or advice?

Eric

[Thalin]

Lower Wis and Cha to 10 for an 18 strength; I understand you don't like "dump" stats, but +1-2 on your Cha-based checks is not worth stifling str; if you are willing to dump slightly, I'd even go 8 Cha and keep Wis where it is. You'll still be a good face at mid-high levels.

If you have the APG available, get the feat early that let's you treat a guy as flanked if 2 allies are adjacent; assuming you have melée allies. Just makes life easy.

If you are keeping trapfinding, at 2nd take the talent that lets you automatically be searching. Lets you combat search, and let's you stand back and search.

Consider 2 levels of Polearm fighter so you can threaten at close range and are proficient with the more damaging Luceren Hammer. Also can let you drop dex to 12 and wear full plate (you don't seem the sneaky rogue type).

So Fighter 1 / Rogue 1 / Fighter 2 / Rogue X
Str: 18
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Chr: 8

Human alt trait (+1 AC when adjacent 2 allies, +1 reflex)

Feats: WF: hammer, flanking feat, Combat reflexes
3: Power attack, trapfinder

Feats:

[sunbeam]

I think you absolutely must take use magic device. I'd drop charisma by 2 and put that in intelligence, or use the favored class hp option to take skills instead.

I believe in use magic device very strongly.

Personally if I were making this character I'd use the rogue swashbuckler alternative from APG. I would take guisarme as my martial weapon, and take unarmed strike as a feat or as a combat talent.

I guess you could just use a spiked gauntlet, but you need some option for close in fighting.

I don't see how you pass on use magic device though.

[Eric Mason 37]

Thalin wrote:

Lower Wis and Cha to 10 for an 18 strength; I understand you don't like "dump" stats, but +1-2 on your Cha-based checks is not worth stifling str; if you are willing to dump slightly, I'd even go 8 Cha and keep Wis where it is. You'll still be a good face at mid-high levels.

I think we are missing each other on what I am trying to do :)

The idea is to be able to do all the rogue stuff and still be useful in combat, not a replacement fighter with some skills on the side.

Thalin wrote:

If you have the APG available, get the feat early that let's you treat a guy as flanked if 2 allies are adjacent; assuming you have melée allies. Just makes life easy.

That feat requires Combat Expertise, and thus an intelligence of 13. It also means there needs to be two other people in the melee... The druid is going the casting route rather than the melee route (i.e. both the druid and the sorcerer will be squishy), so most of the time it's just going to be me and the fighter in the thick of it.

I had thought of that feat, but the MAD, and feat tax felt like a bridge too far.

Thalin wrote:

If you are keeping trapfinding, at 2nd take the talent that lets you automatically be searching. Lets you combat search, and let's you stand back and search.

Trap spotter, I'll figure out where to put that in the rotation :)

Thalin wrote:

Consider 2 levels of Polearm fighter so you can threaten at close range and are proficient with the more damaging Luceren Hammer. Also can let you drop dex to 12 and wear full plate (you don't seem the sneaky rogue type).

I really don't want to multi-class:

1. I don't want to lose the 12 skill points. The other characters won't have many skill points, so it falls to me to ensure we have important skills at good levels.

2. I want to show that a pure rogue is useful. Everyone else dips into fighter, and their rogue skills and abilities suffer from the delay. Our current rogue/fighter/barbarian can't open locks of our CR even when taking 20...

Thanks for the suggestions :)

Eric

[Eric Mason 37]

sunbeam wrote:

I think you absolutely must take use magic device. I'd drop charisma by 2 and put that in intelligence, or use the favored class hp option to take skills instead.

I believe in use magic device very strongly.

Personally if I were making this character I'd use the rogue swashbuckler alternative from APG. I would take guisarme as my martial weapon, and take unarmed strike as a feat or as a combat talent.

I guess you could just use a spiked gauntlet, but you need some option for close in fighting.

I don't see how you pass on use magic device though.

The sorcerer is going to be maxing out Use Magic Device, and getting a Mephit as his familiar at level 7 so that it can use his skill as well. So I figured that angle would be well covered ;)

I will definitely consider the swashbuckler. :) I'd be sad to lose trap finding though.

Thanks,

Eric

[Abraham spalding]

Trapfinding isn't what it was in 3.5 -- so losing it could hurt but shouldn't be too bad.

I would keep maybe 1/2 ranks in UMD just to have it to fall back on.

I like humans in general (IRL and in game) but I don't think improved initiative is going to be a great boon to you: After all you are going to want to let the fighter get into position first and draw most of the attacks so you don't, and moving in first typically won't get you sneak attacks but will draw fire at you.

I would recommend a furious focus early on -- saving yourself that -1~-3 to hit on your only swing on your round is a good thing for a rogue.

I would also suggest going Half-Orc and taking the sacred tattoos instead of orcish ferocity (+1 luck bonuses are always welcome). with a half-orc I would look into the intimidation skill, and stunning defense/dazzling display combination. In combat it will open up your ability to deal sneak attack damage without flanking -- nothing but a good thing for you.

Cleave could also be useful -- kingmaker has several situations in it where you will probably get cleave off and up until level 15 you are only getting two attacks anyways -- might as well take them both as a standard action at a higher bonus.

Shield of Swings might also be a great feat for you -- not something you would use all the time, but getting a +4 shield bonus to AC and CMD could be a life saver -- especially since you still get damage -- half damage isn't going to be such an issue when you are adding in all that sneak attack too.

[Thalin]

Lowering charisma won't make you less useful; -2 to all CHA based skills just isn't a threat. At the very least, you'd be better off moving the same points to int, have more skill points, and thus able to max diplomacy better. Also helps knowledge: local etc. The bottom line is the cha just doesn't make you a better rogue... it's a flaw of the system.

If you want to prove useful, stifling strength is not a good start... really you want that damage output when fighting does occur. 9 skill points a level is nothing to sneeze at, but to be a face you just need a solid diplomacy.

You're already facing low BAB, you need the 18 (and more) to get yourself both the to hit and damage output. Try:
Str: 18
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Chr: 8

Diplomacy, Acrobatics, Climb, Knowledge Local, Perception, and whatever else. I still recommend the human alt that can get you +1 AC with friends.

Just some thoughts; this will certainly help you be more useful and do "rogue-y" things, even gives you 10 skill points. I do admit to being in the "rogues suck" camp, but you can at least make them suck less :).

[Quandary]

I´m not sure why Acrobatics is needed ´to deal with people inside your threat range´. 5´ step seems to handle that fine with auto-success, though you might want to grab Feats allowing that in difficult terrain (or hold out for boots of fly, etc), which would be preferable anyways since Acrobatics is by no means automatic in PRPG. I mean, sure, Tumble/Acrobatics is useful in other situations, so you should max it (because you can) but not so much that one. Using a Reach Weapon really reduces the need for Acrobatics when closing with enemies.

Re: INT/skill ranks in UMD, that to me seems a classic one that you DON´T need to put ranks in at lower levels, because it just isn´t consistently useful at low levels (certainly not to justify buying items which won´t work consistently for you). Better to grab a Headband/Ioun Stone of INT +2 with UMD built in at mid-levels where you can consistently pass the DCs. (keep in mind emulating ability scores for Caster Stats is going to hurt the DC no matter what source)

I´m not really sure why people get focused on single-classing, as if their characters can point out different class builds from across the room. 1 level of Fighter doesn´t really impede your skills much (-1 to all but 2), and gives you martial weapons / hvy armor / and a Feat. You will probably just end up using Medium Proficiency for Mitrhil Breastplate (so you can Tumble) anyways, in which case 1 level of Ranger looks pretty damn good as well, since it only penalizes *2* skills by *-1* (vs. variability of d20), plus gives Favored Enemy (applying to several skills), Tracking bonus, AND lowers the DC for UMD on Ranger spells. 1 level of Fighter/Rogue seems to appropriate for his character background, as well.

Martial Weapons IS really nice: Comp Longbows, and the Bardiche (1d10, 19-20) in the APG for example. A nice Crit Range (esp. if you have the STR) is really worth a Feat, but if you´re spending a Feat (not getting Martial for free via Fighter/Ranger), you might as well grab Exotic Proficiency: Fauchard (detailed on Nethys´ archive, from Classic Horrors Revisited, 1d10 / 18-20). Alternatively, grab a nice 1d12 base Lucerne Hammer with Martial Proficiency (lower BAB / to-hit means Crits are less likely to confirm, so base damage could be preferred).

I think your 16/14/14 physical stat scores to start with (putting future boosts mostly into STR) is a good spread. I would pick up Combat Reflexes at some point, realizing you don´t need an UBER DEX score to make this very useful, only 14 or so... to really make the most of your Reach Weapon drawing AoO´s.

But mostly it seems like you have a decent idea that will work well... Have fuN!
R

[Phneri]

Here's a few thoughts, thoughts:

-Dump wisdom to 10, charisma to 12, and go 13 int. Gives you two things:

1: more skill points. Knowledges are good things. So is a craft, potentially.

2: Access to combat expertise (you want this)

-At least dump the skill focus feat with acrobatics, for listed reasons.

-Postpone dodge and mobility (what's your end goal with them?) and get improved Feint. Follow the other suggestion of furious focus.

Now your maxed bluff (1 point less than you have currently) works to let you sneak attack dudes with a spear. Now you don't have to work as hard with positioning with the fighter (eliminating your mobility needs) and you can make combat reflexes and reach work for both of you.

You can also pick up trip (guisarme perhaps?) or other maneuver options to help out with.

-Why do you need medium armor? A mithral chain shirt is substantially cheaper, only costs you 2 AC (actually just 1 AC, as the +1 shirt is still half the price of the breastplate), and has no feat tax for your character.

With that freed trait you can take heirloom weapon for your proficiency, which frees up a rogue talent early on and gives you +1 to hit with your spear (or what have you).

[Quandary]

I would not bother with Feinting Feats... they just aren´t that effective even when they work. He has a Fighter in the party, and a Druid with Animal Companion who can also Summon Animals RIGHT WHERE THEY NEED TO BE to Flank. Let them worry about getting in perfect flanking position... or grab that Teamwork Feat that lets you Flank enemies who are already Flanked by other allies (just not in perfect position with you).

I don´t think he needs to worry about INT to start with, that´s always something you can bump with a Headband later to qualify for Feats and get new skills. Rogues get enough skills that he doesn´t ´need´ higher INT, certainly not if assuming he will bump it with cheap items later.

I agree blowing Feats on SkilLFocus is a waste for this build... Thats one of the advantages of Reach Weapons, he won´t need to Tumble as much, so why bother when there´s tons of other uses for his Feats?

Blowing a Feat on Medium Armor just seems heavy to me. Especially when 1 level in Fighter Ranger gets you that, PLUS Martial Proficiency, and other benefits. Ranger doubles up both Fort and Reflex Saves, which is nice esp. if your DEX isn´t going to be super high.

[Phneri]

Quandary wrote:

I would not bother with Feinting Feats... they just aren´t that effective even when they work. He has a Fighter in the party, and a Druid with Animal Companion who can also Summon Animals RIGHT WHERE THEY NEED TO BE to Flank.

If you're comparing dodge, mobility, and skill focus to being able to sneak attack with a skill check, optional higher AC, and another maneuver (or just dodge), I'm going to take the latter.

By 12 this guy's on a +16 to the roll to feint without trying hard.

Against the big dumb fighter he's rolling v. a 22. I dig those odds.

[Quandary]

Nope, I wasn´t comparing those. ...Thus why I didn´t mention them.
The problem with Feinting is action economy, which the Greater Version doesn´t help.
It only works in situations where you could Full Attack normally, and allows you 1 sneak attack.
So you´re investing Feats (and skill ranks, possibly with skill focus) for the sole benefit of cases where he couldn´t make a Move to Flank with an Ally, possibly delaying or Readying. I´d rather grab the Gangup Feat to benefit from Allies´ Flanking, and just Full Attack.

His build is going STR heavy (w/ 2Handed bonus), with a Reach Weapon potentially with nice damage and Crit... so if occasionally he doesn´t do Sneak Attack every round, he´s not as bad off as a dual-wielding DEX Rogue (his SA-less single attacks are going to look much better, and even compare with SA single attacks, e.g. from Feinting). Especially with Haste effects, his Full Attacks without SA may well look pretty decent compared to single Sneak Attacks (of a dual-wielder DEX Rogue using Feint, for whom it makes somewhat more sense since they are much more utterly SA-dependent).

[Phneri]

So it makes more sense for the druid to give up a full round action than the rogue to spend a move action?

[Fatespinner]

Phneri wrote:

So it makes more sense for the druid to give up a full round action than the rogue to spend a move action?

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: The druid's flank-summoning is still going to do SOME damage (or at least try to), plus ALL the damage of the rogue's full attack action. With the rogue's move action, he gets one attack, which MIGHT get Sneak Attack if the feint succeeds. The flanking is almost GUARANTEED to give the rogue his sneak attack unless the opponent is a high-level barbarian or rogue, which is a pretty circumstantial situation.

[Phneri]

Fatespinner wrote:

Phneri wrote:

So it makes more sense for the druid to give up a full round action than the rogue to spend a move action?

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: The druid's flank-summoning is still going to do SOME damage (or at least try to), plus ALL the damage of the rogue's full attack action. With the rogue's move action, he gets one attack, which MIGHT get Sneak Attack if the feint succeeds. The flanking is almost GUARANTEED to give the rogue his sneak attack unless the opponent is a high-level barbarian or rogue, which is a pretty circumstantial situation.

Or you do both.

On his action the rogue feints, and the bad guy is flat-footed. He gets sneak attacked (this is going to be likelier to happen than not most of the time).

Druid summons

On his action the rogue delays:

Summon arrives. Druid casts something else.

Animal attacks with flank and rogue sneak attack full attacks. And if the rogue had greater feint, the summon has a far better chance of doing damage.

Feint doesn't prohibit the druid from summoning a flanker, but does allow him to do something else with the action and let the rogue SA. And allows the rogue (with the fighter) to manage two front line targets instead of moving to flank one. It gives you options, which can be a good thing.

[Abraham spalding]

I would rather dazzling display with stunning defense than feint -- I'll get multiple targets, I make it harder for them to do things (and more likely to fail save throws) so even if I don't get another turn I made it easier for my team to win, I have sneak attack available on multiple targets instead of just one, and I can full attack next turn to get more sneak attack dice.

It just plays better with a team than feint does.

[mdt]

If you're going for long spear type rogue, I'd do the following :

A) Armor Spikes on your armor, so you can threaten inside your reach.
B) Combat Reflexes. You've got the dex for it if you put your human +2 in dex instead of str.
C) Stand Still. You get some battlefield control, and you can stop people from running past you out to your spear reach, or next to you using the armor spikes.

That combo let's you attack, AoO if they close, then 5 foot adjust and attack, lather rinse repeat. It also makes you the roadblock, which the enemies won't be expecting, and allows the slower fighter to catch up or manuever around while you keep the baddies flumoxed and stopped until he can flank with you.

[Abraham spalding]

mdt wrote:

C) Stand Still. You get some battlefield control, and you can stop people from running past you out to your spear reach, or next to you using the armor spikes.

Stand Still only works on adjacent targets -- you would be better off with tripping.

[mdt]

Abraham spalding wrote:

mdt wrote:

C) Stand Still. You get some battlefield control, and you can stop people from running past you out to your spear reach, or next to you using the armor spikes.

Stand Still only works on adjacent targets -- you would be better off with tripping.

Ah, my bad. Thanks for pointing out. Then Improved Trip (if possible for a rogue). I think it is, but don't have the book in front of me.

[DrDew]

Improved Trip would be a good route. They get -4 to AC while prone and when they try to get up, they provoke AOO. If flanking (+2 attack), that's a sneak attack while they're prone and a sneak attack (or another trip) when they try to get up. Plus the fighter has an easier time hitting them.
Also, if they're prone and getting up, they're not advancing on the casters and they're penalized on their attacks until they get up.

[Abraham spalding]

mdt wrote:

Ah, my bad. Thanks for pointing out. Then Improved Trip (if possible for a rogue). I think it is, but don't have the book in front of me.

No problem -- it is great advice with that slight hiccup fixed.

[mdt]

Abraham spalding wrote:

mdt wrote:

Ah, my bad. Thanks for pointing out. Then Improved Trip (if possible for a rogue). I think it is, but don't have the book in front of me.

No problem -- it is great advice with that slight hiccup fixed.

:)

Yeah, I have a rogue/warlock that's 1/1 in level. He has Glaive Shape for his blast. I've been thinking what to get at level 3 (one rogue talent and one feat), and I'm thinking right now combat reflexes and bleeding sneak attack. He's already got weapon finess (which he needs with a str 7, don't ask, I made it fit well into his background) and dodge.

[Jon Otaguro 428]

If you look at your proposed build closely, the flaw is going to be that you are proposing a front line melee character that does average damage, medium hit points, and low armor class. You are against multiclassing, but the reality is that your character's combat effectiveness goes way up by taking a full BAB class at level 1.

Your proposed character has at best an AC16 (chain shirt), 11HP, with a +3 attack and 1-8+4 damage.

Taking fighter or paladin at first level gives AC19 (chainmail, armored kilt), 13HP, with a +3 attack (16STR, power attack, lucerne hammer) 1-12+7 damage. Paladin actually has some nice benefits - smite evil bypasses DR and gives CHA bonus to deflection as well as attack and damage bonuses and paladin has cleric save progression which can be a boon to help rogue bad save progression.

The character you are proposing will always have a lower AC than most others in the party. At level 3 or 4 when you are able to get a mithril breastplate for AC18, you could have used that gold to boost your AC with a regular breastplate in other ways. There are ways to adjust playing the character you are proposing:

1) Go heavy into UMD and plan on getting wands. Shield, mirror image, invisibility, barkskin, longstrider, shield of faith, see invisibility etc can all help you. Having UMD yourself gives flexibility of doing personal spells on your self as well as action economy. The sorceror can't UMD shield onto you and he probably won't want to burn actions to UMD in combat.

2) Use ranged weapons or stand behind others. One thing to note is that pathfinder changed reach weapons to impose the same cover penalties as ranged weapons.

Otherwise, my opinion is that the character you are proposing is going to die in combat; and probably lots of times if you stand on the front lines.

[Daniel Moyer]

Eric Mason 37 wrote:

I'm considering making a long spear weilding rogue for our upcoming Kingmaker campaign.

I've been playing a VERY similar character in Kingmaker for the past 2 months, I'm currently a 2nd level Rogue. I'm building for Intimidate, Rogue 4(Thug/Scout)/Cavalier 13(Cockatrice/Dragon). Long spear is currently my primary weapon, but I have a sap for close-quarters.

Str 14 (5 pts)
Dex 13 (3 pts) + 2 Human stat bonus = 15
Con 12 (2 pts)
Int 13 (3 pts)
Wis 12 (2 pts)
Cha 14 (5 pts)

Favored Class: Cavalier (Banner Bonus +1/4)
Traits: Brigand (Campaign) & Reactionary (+2 Init)
Feats: Combat Expertise & Enforcer
Rogue Talent: Combat Feat - Gang Up (Class Mounts/Companions count as allies, we have a Druid & Paladin in the party as well.)

I'm looking to take non-core material as well...

Boon Companion (Seeker of Secrets) +4 druid levels to mount.

Moral Chameleon (The Cavalier's Creed) Change Cavalier Orders while maintaining existing abilities, looking at 'Dragon' for later levels to be more of a Marshal-style character.

EDIT: A different thread where I discussed my concept a bit more in length. (LINK)

[Eric Mason 37]

Regarding armour proficiency:

As I mentioned in my initial post, I am taking the Armour Expert trait, which drops the armour check penalty of a mithral breastplate to 0, thus I won't need a feat, or to multi-class to be able to wear a mithral breastplate.

Before we get to the point of having mithral breastplates, most opponents don't seem to last long enough, to make the restriction to a chain shirt that onerous.

Regarding having "only" strength 16:

My current character, a fighter, had a strength of 16 at level 1, and he's done just fine (read as slightly resented because he's so much better than everyone else). I realize fighters are a full BAB class, but as the secondary melee person a 3/4 BAB with the same strength should be able to contribute IMO.

Regarding dumping wisdom:

I'm very leary of dumping wisdom. Failed will saves suck! :P

Regarding dumping charisma:

Going from a +2 at level 4 with the stat increase to a -1 or -2 for the full campaign is not appealing at all. I really want to be the face, and dropping diplomacy, bluff, and intimidate by 3 to 4 is going to hurt that. The fighter is going to be crushing all before him in combat, I need to be able to do the same in social situations.

It also doesn't fit with the concept. This guy has leadership potential, he's a likeable person, charisma penalties don't fit that. (I've also done multiple characters of the gruff low charisma social approach over the years, and it is time to do something different.)

Regarding tripping:

My current character is a tripper, so I think it's best to lay off tripping for at least one character. My gleeful "yoinks" are funny, but a second character doing it would be pushing it.

Regarding UMD:

I think Abraham spalding has the right idea. If it turns out between the Mephit and the sorcerer that we don't have enough UMD, I can see about a headband of intelligence with that skill, or worst case, buy it up with skill points. At level 1 it's pretty damn useless anyway, so it's a fall off that bridge when I come to it thing IMO.

Regarding Furious Focus:

Good call Abraham spalding, I will add it to the list.

Regarding Combat Reflexes and Cleave:

They were already in there :)

Regarding Acrobatics and Skill Focus:

I may very well be overly paranoid. My fighter has step up, and sometimes quarters can be so close, that it is hard to find somewhere to take a five foot step to. I will see how things progress, and have it on my maybe feat list.

Regarding Armour Spikes:

Nice idea MTD. They are martial weapons unfortunately though. If I do a reach based martial class at some point, they'd be a cool option.

Regarding Trapfinding:

As I mentioned our current rogue/fighter/barbarian has proved to be rubish at locks, well this also applies to traps. Since my dex and wisdom aren't going to be really high (respectable but not high) I was counting on this ability to keep me useful at these things.

Regarding multi-classing again:

It's not going to happen. If I die because a fighter and a rogue who hasn't multi-classed to a martial class isn't viable in a four person party, so be it. Yes his armour class is a bit lighter, but he's also fighting with reach so will spend a bit less time with people in base to base contact.

Regarding Improved Initiative:

I can see your point about becoming a target, but I was thinking of it as being able to move in and get a sneak attack cleave while the enemy was bunched up, and possibly some attacks of opportunity from those who'd need to do more than a five foot step. I will have to think about this more.

Regarding Dodge and Mobility:

They are there for additional AC, and failed tumble insurance. I can see putting Mobility off until the more useful things are taken.

Regarding feinting:

Yes, feighting is a trap. Not worth going into when hopefully there will be summoned creatures around to help set up flanks, and soak up some attacks.

I hope that is everything, thanks everyone :)

I will see about putting together a revised build plan,

Eric

[Doc Cosmic]

Much has already been said, and you seem to have an excellent grasp of the rules/system, so I am not going to offer up much character build advice. But I do take exception to one thing you said, and feel it is a good idea to voice this issue.

You state...

"I'd like to show that a pure rogue is a viable choice. No one in our group has ever done one."

And yet you have chosen one of the worst rogue builds in order to prove the effectiveness of the rogue class. Furthermore, you hold that you intend to build this character to "fill the holes" of your party, rather than make the most "rogue-y" rogue possible. While pathfinder wants everyone to remain pure in their base class, it is not always in the best interest of the character concept to do so...which is the case for what you have chosen.

So, I politely ask that you and your group do not judge the rogue class on the character concept you are so adamant to play. You are trying to shoehorn the rogue into a concept that does not play to the rogue's strength, and shows many of its weaknesses.

Thanks for letting me borrow your eyes and minds, I now return you to your usual thread....

[mdt]

Eric Mason 37 wrote:

Regarding Armour Spikes:

Nice idea MTD. They are martial weapons unfortunately though. If I do a reach based martial class at some point, they'd be a cool option.

I know you won't have proficiency, that's not the point. :) The point is, you're going with a reach weapon. Therefore, you need to be able to threaten up close. Yes, you'll take a -4 with the armor spikes. But, they don't cost all that much in gold (a few hundred) and they give you the ability to threaten up close without dropping your reach weapon. Are they sub-optimal? Yes. Are they expensive? No. Do they allow you to threaten every square out to 10 feet with combat reflexes? Yes.

It keeps people from getting inside your reach and provoking without concern.

[Abraham spalding]

mdt is right -- armor spikes are really nice -- but I think I might have a better suggestion along the same lines: The cestus is a simple weapon, doesn't get in the way of your long spear and has a better damage and critical range than armor spikes. It's a punching weapon so if you were to tell me you were going to punch with it while holding a two handed weapon I would be fine with that as a GM.

Starting with a 16 strength will be fine -- I would also think about the sword of subtlety -- it is going to be a higher level item (costs 22k~ish) but it gives +4 to hit and damage when sneak attacking... which is a huge bonus for anyone, if you were to take lunge that let you have your reach with a sword of subtlety too (but only on your turn).

I understand not wanting trip, and when I double checked the reach weapons I remembered that when using a reach weapon you usually treat the opponent as if you were using a ranged weapon for purposes of cover and attack penalties from the target being prone -- so that would actually make it harder for you to hit!

I have some information about kingmaker your GM might not like for you to have -- it's not specific case but a general statement of what I have observed through the six books, I'm going to spoiler it all the same so if you want it great, if not that's good too:

Spoiler:

I haven't noticed that many traps in the kingmaker campaign.

I didn't see you comment on going half orc and dazzling display with stunning defense so I'm going to bring that up again -- I feel it's a wonderful fall back to having to flank -- especially if you are not going to dump Cha (I fully agree with not dumping Wisdom). I worry that with only the fighter to flank with and no guarantee of summons from the druid or sorcerer (and summon nature's ally really stinks compared to what it was in 3.5) you should try hard to make sure you have a means of getting sneak attack.

[james maissen]

Eric Mason 37 wrote:

Regarding having "only" strength 16:

My current character, a fighter, had a strength of 16 at level 1, and he's done just fine (read as slightly resented because he's so much better than everyone else). I realize fighters are a full BAB class, but as the secondary melee person a 3/4 BAB with the same strength should be able to contribute IMO.

Check the math behind this for a second.

1. The 3/4BAB is like power attacking all the time (let's ignore the rogue potentially power attacking).

2. The fighter I am assuming bumped STR, you are not. Likewise the fighter likely greatly invested in increasing STR & weapons.. you might not.

3. The fighter got how many bonuses to hit from class features? Your rogue is getting none.

So here's the question.. did you always have plenty of room to power attack with your slightly resented fighter? How great a disparity are you going to be looking at say by 11th level? How often did you miss with your secondary or tertiary attacks with your fighter at this point? How does your Rogue's chance to hit compare with these secondary and tertiary attacks?

That should paint a picture for you on exactly how able to contribute you're looking to be here.

Eric Mason 37 wrote:

I really want to be the face,

I think you really want far too much out of one character.

This is something that routinely happens, and can lead to overall sadness when you wind up not delivering anywhere by trying to be everywhere.

Here's a rogue build that I did a bit ago, see what it can deliver for you and what you greatly dislike about it. It will have a rogue feel for it for sure. It won't deliver face skills, but honestly the sorcerer could and should likely be looking to cover this imho.

Race Human
STR 14
INT 07
WIS 14
DEX 19 (17+2 racial)
CON 14
CHA 07

(STR can be lowered to raise INT or CHA if desired)

Skills: Stealth, Perception, Disable Device, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, UMD, 1 rank/level remaining to hit 2 ranks perform dance, 1 rank in each swim, climb & diplomacy.

Trait: Heirloom weapon flying talon
Favored Class (Rogue) Bonus: 1/6 talent for rogue1-6, extra skills for rogue7

Feats/Talents/Class progression:
Rogue1 (trapmaster variant) Dodge, Combat Reflexes
Rogue2 Talent: Finesse Fighter (Weapon finesse)
Rogue3 Skill Focus: Stealth
Rogue4 Talent: Trap spotter
Rogue5 Mobility
Shadowdancer1
Rogue6 Talent: Fast Stealth, Talent: Combat (EWP Flying talon) Feat: Hellcat stealth
Shadowdancer2:
Shadowdancer3: Talent: Slow Reactions, Feat: Combat Patrol
Rogue7

Keeps all listed skills maxed except UMD which dips in the shadow dancer levels, made up again by level 10.

You could reasonably adjust this to handle diplomacy rather than UMD by flipping those skills around. Also adjusting the STR down to 13 could free up another point of INT for another full skill if desired.

It's not the build that you were asking for, but it should be a rogue that will do well for you. You can adjust it a bit to taste, and perhaps get a rogue closer to what you want.. though again I don't think that you can have everything you want and be at the level of effectiveness that you want to be.

-James

[Fatespinner]

Abraham spalding wrote:

mdt is right -- armor spikes are really nice -- but I think I might have a better suggestion along the same lines: The cestus is a simple weapon, doesn't get in the way of your long spear and has a better damage and critical range than armor spikes. It's a punching weapon so if you were to tell me you were going to punch with it while holding a two handed weapon I would be fine with that as a GM.

Technically that's not allowed, though. It would be pretty hard to effectively hold and fight with a polearm while also keeping a cestus clenched up in your hand realistically. Naturally, you are perfectly within your rights as a GM to allow it, but in my games, I would not.

[Abraham spalding]

Fatespinner wrote:

Technically that's not allowed, though. It would be pretty hard to effectively hold and fight with a polearm while also keeping a cestus clenched up in your hand realistically. Naturally, you are perfectly within your rights as a GM to allow it, but in my games, I would not.

Or just let go of the long spear with the hand that has the cestus on it since you are attacking the guy in front of you anyways.

[Dragonsong]

Fatespinner wrote:

Technically that's not allowed, though. It would be pretty hard to effectively hold and fight with a polearm while also keeping a cestus clenched up in your hand realistically. Naturally, you are perfectly within your rights as a GM to allow it, but in my games, I would not.

Actually it is

SRD wrote:

Drawback: When using a cestus, your fingers are mostly exposed, allowing you to wield or carry items in that hand, but the constriction of the weapon at your knuckles gives you a –2 penalty on all precision-based tasks involving that hand (such as opening locks).

[mdt]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Fatespinner wrote:

Technically that's not allowed, though. It would be pretty hard to effectively hold and fight with a polearm while also keeping a cestus clenched up in your hand realistically. Naturally, you are perfectly within your rights as a GM to allow it, but in my games, I would not.

Or just let go of the long spear with the hand that has the cestus on it since you are attacking the guy in front of you anyways.

The problem is, that a cestus is strapped to your hand. It makes it hard to properly wield a pole weapon. You lose a lot of the flexibility in the hand adn wrist.

Here is a good graphic of a roman cestus. If you look, it's hard across the back of the hand, and strapped across the palm to the wrist. That imobilizes the wrist in certain directions, which is desired for a cestus, but not for wielding a long spear.

[james maissen]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Or just let go of the long spear with the hand that has the cestus on it since you are attacking the guy in front of you anyways.

Armor spikes are better here in that you can threaten with both at the same time.

I don't see a cestus as different from say a spiked gauntlet in that respect. If anything the cestus is MORE restrictive than the gauntlet.

-James

[Dragonsong]

mdt wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

Fatespinner wrote:

Technically that's not allowed, though. It would be pretty hard to effectively hold and fight with a polearm while also keeping a cestus clenched up in your hand realistically. Naturally, you are perfectly within your rights as a GM to allow it, but in my games, I would not.

Or just let go of the long spear with the hand that has the cestus on it since you are attacking the guy in front of you anyways.

The problem is, that a cestus is strapped to your hand. It makes it hard to properly wield a pole weapon. You lose a lot of the flexibility in the hand adn wrist.

Here is a good graphic of a roman cestus. If you look, it's hard across the back of the hand, and strapped across the palm to the wrist. That imobilizes the wrist in certain directions, which is desired for a cestus, but not for wielding a long spear.

Then this is a case where the game mechanics do not match the real world. In the game mechanics you can do what Abraham suggests.

[Abraham spalding]

mdt wrote:

The problem is, that a cestus is strapped to your hand. It makes it hard to properly wield a pole weapon. You lose a lot of the flexibility in the hand adn wrist.

Here is a good graphic of a roman cestus. If you look, it's hard across the back of the hand, and strapped across the palm to the wrist. That imobilizes the wrist in certain directions, which is desired for a cestus, but not for wielding a long spear.

I agree with your link but I was thinking to use the cestus hand as the pivot hand, relying on the other for placement and balance.

[Eric Mason 37]

Doc Cosmic wrote:

Much has already been said, and you seem to have an excellent grasp of the rules/system, so I am not going to offer up much character build advice. But I do take exception to one thing you said, and feel it is a good idea to voice this issue.

You state...

"I'd like to show that a pure rogue is a viable choice. No one in our group has ever done one."

And yet you have chosen one of the worst rogue builds in order to prove the effectiveness of the rogue class. Furthermore, you hold that you intend to build this character to "fill the holes" of your party, rather than make the most "rogue-y" rogue possible. While pathfinder wants everyone to remain pure in their base class, it is not always in the best interest of the character concept to do so...which is the case for what you have chosen.

So, I politely ask that you and your group do not judge the rogue class on the character concept you are so adamant to play. You are trying to shoehorn the rogue into a concept that does not play to the rogue's strength, and shows many of its weaknesses.

Thanks for letting me borrow your eyes and minds, I now return you to your usual thread....

I respectfully disagree with you :)

Whenever there is a four person party, and people deviate from the classic jobs, there will be gaps to fill. I can't fill all the gaps, I'm not even going to try. Everyone will have to pitch in.

Sorcerer instead of Wizard, we're seriously short on knowledges. I'm encouraging people to take a knowledge or two, and even if it isn't kept at max, at least keep it at 3/4ths so we're not completely ignorant/hopeless.

Stand off druid instead of secondary tank cleric, I'm heartily encouraging summoning spells to try and make up warm bodies in melee, and gently encouraging the fighter away from being a skirmishing type. (I've tanked two campaigns in a row, and am often able to position well enough to compensate for others being more stand offish. Someone is going to have to step up and tank...)

Face is a classic job for the rogue, so I am taking that. Pathfinder consolidated enough skills that a high intelligence isn't mandatory anymore. Traps, locks and stealth are also classic jobs, so I'm doing that too.

Skirmishing and getting sneak attacks is normal rogue stuff too. The longspear is a rogue weapon... I think I'm reasonably close to type. Slightly better off IMO than the TWF since I'm better at keeping damage up when moving (our TWF rogue/fighter/barbarian spends a hell of a lot more time with stardard action attacks than full round attacks), and slightly less likely to suck a full attack from an enemy.

The current view is that pure rogue is completely unusable. Even if I die, it won't alter the view. You can't get worse from unusable :)

Eric

[Eric Mason 37]

mdt wrote:

I know you won't have proficiency, that's not the point. :) The point is, you're going with a reach weapon. Therefore, you need to be able to threaten up close. Yes, you'll take a -4 with the armor spikes. But, they don't cost all that much in gold (a few hundred) and they give you the ability to threaten up close without dropping your reach weapon. Are they sub-optimal? Yes. Are they expensive? No. Do they allow you to threaten every square out to 10 feet with combat reflexes? Yes.

It keeps people from getting inside your reach and provoking without concern.

Good point. You don't need proficiency to threaten, I will put them on the to be considered list :)

Eric

[Goth Guru]

The RAW that Armor Spikes do not attack anything that grapples the wearer automaticly ruins believeability. That's why I don't use them anymore. They are the elephant in the fridge.
Have you considered smuggler's boots?
You can hide a dagger in each.

[sunbeam]

You've been pretty upfront about what you hope to achieve with this build.

I don't think your build is bad. If you want to do it exactly as you statted it, go ahead. I don't think you are in any danger of dying by someone looking at you hard.

That said, I'd do two things:

1) I'd take use magic device. Even if someone else in the party has it, it is good for you to do it as well. If you can get a magic item well and good. Though I didn't really grasp what a "Better to grab a Headband/Ioun Stone of INT +2 with UMD built in" meant exactly. (Is it supposed to be like +10 to umd? Did they mean charisma and wrote int instead?)

Use magic device is a class feature to me. It is expected, I think, that the rogue has a few wands and scrolls to pull out if needed.

2) You don't want to multiclass, but unless it is a total matter of pride to you I think I would take one, maybe 2 levels of fighter. Looking at your build it would be cool to have quickdraw and exotic weapon proficiency bola.

Plus you wouldn't have to worry about being proficient with a martial weapon. I don't think you have enough feats if you go straight rogue.

It would fit your military background, and you don't have to use heavy armor at all if you don't want to.

And have you thought about the minor and lesser magic traits? Being able to cast a 1st level invis spell, might be a lifesaver sometime. Plus let you unload with the sneak attacks.

[Eric Mason 37]

james maissen wrote:

Eric Mason 37 wrote:

Regarding having "only" strength 16:

My current character, a fighter, had a strength of 16 at level 1, and he's done just fine (read as slightly resented because he's so much better than everyone else). I realize fighters are a full BAB class, but as the secondary melee person a 3/4 BAB with the same strength should be able to contribute IMO.

Check the math behind this for a second.

1. The 3/4BAB is like power attacking all the time (let's ignore the rogue potentially power attacking).

2. The fighter I am assuming bumped STR, you are not. Likewise the fighter likely greatly invested in increasing STR & weapons.. you might not.

I'm taking strength upgrades level 8 and on, as I mentioned, but your eye must have missed. :)

I'm planning on getting strength and dex belts if I can. A good magic weapon is also on the list too.

We might be operating off drastically different interpretations of what it means to contribute!

james maissen wrote:

3. The fighter got how many bonuses to hit from class features? Your rogue is getting none.

So here's the question.. did you always have plenty of room to power attack with your slightly resented fighter? How great a disparity are you going to be looking at say by 11th level? How often did you miss with your secondary or tertiary attacks with your fighter at this point? How does your Rogue's chance to hit compare with these secondary and tertiary attacks?

That should paint a picture for you on exactly how able to contribute you're looking to be here.

I'm not as cool as a fighter. I never had the idea I would be. I do think I can contribute, even if I am not on the fighter's level. He will shine in combat, I will back him up.

Power attack will be used on occasion, when it is viable. Cleave will likely be used more often than power attack. Furious focus will make power attack more viable depending if there is much potential for attacks of opportunity that round.

My fighter doesn't always power attack. Particularly if he's tripping that round against things that might have a good CMD.

james maissen wrote:

Eric Mason 37 wrote:

I really want to be the face,

I think you really want far too much out of one character.

This is something that routinely happens, and can lead to overall sadness when you wind up not delivering anywhere by trying to be everywhere.

Face, traps and such, and a back up person in melee. I don't think that is unreasonable from a class that gets 8 skill points. Sure if we were a 5 or 6 person party, I could focus more, but we aren't, such is life.

james maissen wrote:

Here's a rogue build that I did a bit ago, see what it can deliver for you and what you greatly dislike about it. It will have a rogue feel for it for sure. It won't deliver face skills, but honestly the sorcerer could and should likely be looking to cover this imho.

The sorcerer can't be the face. He doesn't have the skill points. I can't recall his intelligence off the top of my head, but I believe he's got 3 skill points per level. I think he's taking Spellcraft, Knowlege Arcana, and UMD.

If there were more people in the party, I could farm out a job to make this guy better at one of the ones he keeps. However that doesn't seem to be in the cards.

Eric

[Eric Mason 37]

Abraham spalding wrote:

mdt wrote:

The problem is, that a cestus is strapped to your hand. It makes it hard to properly wield a pole weapon. You lose a lot of the flexibility in the hand adn wrist.

Here is a good graphic of a roman cestus. If you look, it's hard across the back of the hand, and strapped across the palm to the wrist. That imobilizes the wrist in certain directions, which is desired for a cestus, but not for wielding a long spear.

I agree with your link but I was thinking to use the cestus hand as the pivot hand, relying on the other for placement and balance.

Yes, this appears to be another one of those RPGs can be amazingly silly/unrealistic. I wince a lot when I read the equipment sections ;)

Eric

[mdt]

sunbeam wrote:

1) I'd take use magic device. Even if someone else in the party has it, it is good for you to do it as well. If you can get a magic item well and good. Though I didn't really grasp what a "Better to grab a Headband/Ioun Stone of INT +2 with UMD built in" meant exactly. (Is it supposed to be like +10 to umd? Did they mean charisma and wrote int instead?)

Headbands of Vast Intelligence now come with one or more skills built in. For every +2, it has a skill associated. The wearer gains max skill ranks with the associated skill. Since so many of the rogue's skills are int based, it's a good purchase, so he might as well get one with UMD on it, and have max ranks, rather than spread his ranks around.

[sunbeam]

mdt wrote:

sunbeam wrote:

1) I'd take use magic device. Even if someone else in the party has it, it is good for you to do it as well. If you can get a magic item well and good. Though I didn't really grasp what a "Better to grab a Headband/Ioun Stone of INT +2 with UMD built in" meant exactly. (Is it supposed to be like +10 to umd? Did they mean charisma and wrote int instead?)

Headbands of Vast Intelligence now come with one or more skills built in. For every +2, it has a skill associated. The wearer gains max skill ranks with the associated skill. Since so many of the rogue's skills are int based, it's a good purchase, so he might as well get one with UMD on it, and have max ranks, rather than spread his ranks around.

Thanks I didn't know that. That is actually kind of broken though. At least in the sense that unless you just had to have your helm of teleportation on or use your circlet of blasting why wouldn't you have one of these? At least when you are able to afford one with two stats on it (if you are a cha or wis casting class).

At 20th level who isn't going to have one?

[wraithstrike]

sunbeam wrote:

mdt wrote:

sunbeam wrote:

1) I'd take use magic device. Even if someone else in the party has it, it is good for you to do it as well. If you can get a magic item well and good. Though I didn't really grasp what a "Better to grab a Headband/Ioun Stone of INT +2 with UMD built in" meant exactly. (Is it supposed to be like +10 to umd? Did they mean charisma and wrote int instead?)

Headbands of Vast Intelligence now come with one or more skills built in. For every +2, it has a skill associated. The wearer gains max skill ranks with the associated skill. Since so many of the rogue's skills are int based, it's a good purchase, so he might as well get one with UMD on it, and have max ranks, rather than spread his ranks around.

Thanks I didn't know that. That is actually kind of broken though. At least in the sense that unless you just had to have your helm of teleportation on or use your circlet of blasting why wouldn't you have one of these? At least when you are able to afford one with two stats on it (if you are a cha or wis casting class).

At 20th level who isn't going to have one?

You have to wear them for 24 hours to gain full benefits so you can't teleport, and then change to headband to get the skill instantly.

[mdt]

sunbeam wrote:

mdt wrote:

sunbeam wrote:

1) I'd take use magic device. Even if someone else in the party has it, it is good for you to do it as well. If you can get a magic item well and good. Though I didn't really grasp what a "Better to grab a Headband/Ioun Stone of INT +2 with UMD built in" meant exactly. (Is it supposed to be like +10 to umd? Did they mean charisma and wrote int instead?)

Headbands of Vast Intelligence now come with one or more skills built in. For every +2, it has a skill associated. The wearer gains max skill ranks with the associated skill. Since so many of the rogue's skills are int based, it's a good purchase, so he might as well get one with UMD on it, and have max ranks, rather than spread his ranks around.

Thanks I didn't know that. That is actually kind of broken though. At least in the sense that unless you just had to have your helm of teleportation on or use your circlet of blasting why wouldn't you have one of these? At least when you are able to afford one with two stats on it (if you are a cha or wis casting class).

At 20th level who isn't going to have one?

Unless I'm mistaken, helmet and headband are two different slots in PF.

What it goes to is that PF takes the assumption that all stat bonuses are retroactive. Therefore, if you get +2 int, you get HD skill points from it. To keep it from being broken, the item fixes those skill points into one skill only (or one per +2 of the item).

I agree that most characters at level 20 will have a +6/+6/+6 headband and a +6/+6/+6 belt (for the physical stats).

[Eric Mason 37]

sunbeam wrote:

You've been pretty upfront about what you hope to achieve with this build.

I don't think your build is bad. If you want to do it exactly as you statted it, go ahead. I don't think you are in any danger of dying by someone looking at you hard.

That said, I'd do two things:

1) I'd take use magic device. Even if someone else in the party has it, it is good for you to do it as well. If you can get a magic item well and good. Though I didn't really grasp what a "Better to grab a Headband/Ioun Stone of INT +2 with UMD built in" meant exactly. (Is it supposed to be like +10 to umd? Did they mean charisma and wrote int instead?)

If you look at intelligence headbands, you'll see that rather than giving you extra skill points, they come with a skill for each +2 they grant. That skill is treated as if it had ranks equal to your hit dice. Any ranks you have don't stack with the headband's skill.

So a +2 int comes with one skill, a +4 gives two differnt skills.

This would allow me to get a max ranks UMD for 4000 gp, assuming I can commision one of course.

PRD Entry

sunbeam wrote:

Use magic device is a class feature to me. It is expected, I think, that the rogue has a few wands and scrolls to pull out if needed.

2) You don't want to multiclass, but unless it is a total matter of pride to you I think I would take one, maybe 2 levels of fighter. Looking at your build it would be cool to have quickdraw and exotic weapon proficiency bola.

Plus you wouldn't have to worry about being proficient with a martial weapon. I don't think you have enough feats if you go straight rogue.

It would fit your military background, and you don't have to use heavy armor at all if you don't want to.

And have you thought about the minor and lesser magic traits? Being able to cast a 1st level invis spell, might be a lifesaver sometime. Plus let you unload with the sneak attacks.

This guy was in the ranks rather than an officer, so using lighter armour, and cheaper weapons. If he'd been a man-at-arms/esquire/knight, I'd definitely be with you on heavier armour and more martial weapons ;)

I had thought about the magic traits, but I'm already spread pretty thinly, and needing additional intelligence to qualify would mean sacrificing something else. It is an intruiging option to be sure.

If I end out abandoning feats related to acrobatics, and initiative, my feat plan is starting to look fairly roomy.

Eric

[wraithstrike]

mdt wrote:

sunbeam wrote:

mdt wrote:

sunbeam wrote:

1) I'd take use magic device. Even if someone else in the party has it, it is good for you to do it as well. If you can get a magic item well and good. Though I didn't really grasp what a "Better to grab a Headband/Ioun Stone of INT +2 with UMD built in" meant exactly. (Is it supposed to be like +10 to umd? Did they mean charisma and wrote int instead?)

Headbands of Vast Intelligence now come with one or more skills built in. For every +2, it has a skill associated. The wearer gains max skill ranks with the associated skill. Since so many of the rogue's skills are int based, it's a good purchase, so he might as well get one with UMD on it, and have max ranks, rather than spread his ranks around.

Thanks I didn't know that. That is actually kind of broken though. At least in the sense that unless you just had to have your helm of teleportation on or use your circlet of blasting why wouldn't you have one of these? At least when you are able to afford one with two stats on it (if you are a cha or wis casting class).

At 20th level who isn't going to have one?

Unless I'm mistaken, helmet and headband are two different slots in PF.

What it goes to is that PF takes the assumption that all stat bonuses are retroactive. Therefore, if you get +2 int, you get HD skill points from it. To keep it from being broken, the item fixes those skill points into one skill only (or one per +2 of the item).

I agree that most characters at level 20 will have a +6/+6/+6 headband and a +6/+6/+6 belt (for the physical stats).

I think there is a face and head slot so you can wear a mask and a hat, but not a two items that go on your head.

[Eric Mason 37]

Goth Guru wrote:

The RAW that Armor Spikes do not attack anything that grapples the wearer automaticly ruins believeability. That's why I don't use them anymore. They are the elephant in the fridge.

Have you considered smuggler's boots?
You can hide a dagger in each.

There is a precidence near the end of the usable era of plate armour of a german I believe who had commissioned spikey armour so he could use it to savage his opponents. It did what anyone who understands the concept of glancing surfaces would predict... Guide blows into the body, and prevent them from being deflected. There is a huge hole in the armour from the blow that killed the gentleman.

A lot of stuff in the equipment section is equally silly :P

I don't recall smuggler's boots. It's possible they're in a supplement I don't have, or just haven't read closely enough.

Eric

[Goth Guru]

It's in the equiptment guide.
You can hide one dagger in each boot and a gem or ioun stone in each heal. Just double the cost of each set of boots till Pathfinder makes the conversion.