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I'm looking for advice on Metamagic for a Sorcerer with the Arcane bloodline.
I've been thinking about the build for several days now, and I'm stuck; I've never really understood metamagic feats. I understand what metamagic feats do (add theoretical utility to spells and spellcasters), and why sorcerers have the "action tax" (limited spells known increases the theoretical utility of Metamagic feats, so increased casting time balances this advantage out).
It's just that, well, I've never really believed in the theoretical utility of these feats. An "empowered magic missile" or "empowered burning hands" doesn't come close to matching a fireball, so it's not like a sorcerer can pass on learning the higher-level spell. Feats like "extend spell" and "reach spell" are handy, I guess, but compared to Spell Focus, or Toughness? I don't see it.
For the past week or so, I've had a Character Concept for an Arcane Sorcerer floating around in my head; I like the character, and it's looking more and more like I'm going to get to game (which I've only done twice in the last four months - sigh). I just don't see the point of Metamagic, which is the problem. No metamagic means the Arcane Bloodline is largely superfluous, which bugs me.
I'd like to play the character that's in my head, but I feel like I need to figure out how to "like" metamagic in order to do that, and I'm not sure how.
You may want to eye up the Metamagic Feats in the APG, if you have access to it -- I think some of them make the case for it better than the core feats.
Of core, I only really like Quicken and sometimes Extend -- for most of the rest I run into the problem you're describing in most cases.
Metamagic Feats I find handy on a human arcane sorcerer:
Elemental Spell: Electricity
Elemental Spell: Acid
Intensified Spell
Quicken Spell
Selective Spell
You will notice that all of them except Quicken Spell is +1, if you metamagic a spell up more than 1 level, it becomes very difficult to justify the feat because spells that are 2 levels higher are in the high school play-yard...and the metamagic spell is just a really tall 3rd grader :(
Well magic missile is a significant exception to the metamagic issue simply because when you come across something with a number of immunities / resistances you need something that can reliably do more than 17.5 damage that can actually get through the resistance / immunities. So getting something like empower to boost your acid arrow will make you fair a bit better when your DM makes you fall down a pit with an iron golem at the bottom waiting to pound you.
The metamagic feats are honestly more about utility than actually enhancing stuff. For example, if you need to stun lock something that's immune to magic, apply dazing spell to acid arrow and now you got a dazed golem (unless it passes two consecutive saves) that's taking a small DoT. Or you go against an allip and that 50% miss chance and 50% damage on your scorching ray just isn't cutting it, an empowered magic missile might be more useful.
The other thing to note with sorcerors is that metamagic feats let them take different spells later on.
For instance, you can use a 4th level slot for an Empowered Scorching Ray (a pretty decent attack spell). This means you don't need a 4th level blasty spell, meaning you have more choices for your L4 slot.
My list of Metamagic Feats to consider for a Sorcerer:
Elemental Spell [something other than fire]
Intensify Spell
Lingering Spell
Extend Spell
Dazing Spell
Quicken Spell
Consider that a 4th level Extended Dazing Acid Arrow is a very long range spell that has a duration of at least 6 rounds (8 rounds after 9th level).
Intensified Fireball is a better 4th level kaboom spell than Cone of Cold in every measure other than "Things that are immune to fire damage".
Intensified Empowered Fireball is a 6th level spell doing 18d6 of fire damage. While not equal to a disintegrate, it affects multiple targets and is MUCH longer ranged.
Intensified Burning Hands or Shocking Grasp is a great use of a 2nd level spell slot.
Extend Spell is amazingly handy.
I personally feel that Maximize should be +2 spell levels, Widen should be +2 spell levels and Empower should be +1 spell level.
If you're planning on doing an Eldritch Knight build, Still Spell is a better deal than Arcane Armor Training.
If you're doing a sneaky-caster build, Silent Spell is worth considering.
The other thing to note with sorcerors is that metamagic feats let them take different spells later on.
For instance, you can use a 4th level slot for an Empowered Scorching Ray (a pretty decent attack spell). This means you don't need a 4th level blasty spell, meaning you have more choices for your L4 slot.
+1
Intensified Spell works could for extending the usefulness of low level evocations as well.An Intensified Fireball keeps up well with a Cone of Cold, a 5-th level spell. An Empowered Fireball actually out damages a Cone of Cold until 15th level.
Extend Spell is great for 10 min/lv and hr/lv buffs. An extended Resist Energy can protect you for an entire dungeon crawl(2hrs +) from the level you get it; same with Magic Circle and Heroism. Darkvision and Greater Magic Weapon last all day. Maybe my casters rely on buffs too much, but I'll take all day bufs over Toughness any day.
Metamagic feats that are worthwhile:
Reach spell
Intensify spell (at times)
Extend spell (again at times -- more so for a wizard)
Quicken spell
Focused spell
Persistent spell
Disruptive spell
Dazing spell
Those are the ones I've been happy with.
I'm not saying you're wrong, Abraham, but I've never been tempted by Reach Spell. I'll almost always take the 2nd level 'carrier spell' instead of Reach Spell. (It's actually one of my favorite wands to buy; 4500 GP will generally last through several levels of adventuring.)
Now, if that spell isn't on a list, then Reach Spell is worthwhile.
I've been tempted to get wands of Reach Level 1 Cure Light Wounds for my UMD sorcerer.
I can understand what you are saying AdAstraGames -- I consider Reach spell to be most valuable in a metamagic rod, or when I want to cast a touch spell without wasting the time of casting the level 2 spell (or the level 2 spell is just completely inappropriate for the character type).
Honestly it's best in the hands of people without access to spectral touch.
I can understand what you are saying AdAstraGames -- I consider Reach spell to be most valuable in a metamagic rod, or when I want to cast a touch spell without wasting the time of casting the level 2 spell (or the level 2 spell is just completely inappropriate for the character type).
Honestly it's best in the hands of people without access to spectral touch.
I have not seen Reach Spell as a metamagic rod in the PRD. Does it exist?
Not all Metamagic feats have rods, and Reach Spell would be a tricky one to price.
(I would so spend GPs on a widen spell metamagic rod.)
It does, it's priced at the one level adjustment (meaning you could take a touch to close, or close to medium, or medium to long range but nothing else) -- pretty cheap honestly and well worth it in my opinion.
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For the record, I've compiled a list of suggested metamagic feats from this thread.
Dazing Spell
Elemental Spell: Electricity
Elemental Spell: Acid
Extend Spell
Focused Spell
Intensified Spell
Lingering Spell
Persistent Spell
Quicken Spell
Selective Spell
In addition, the following feats, while perhaps not quite worth learning, are infinitely valuable as metamagic rods:
Disruptive Spell
Reach Spell
Silent Spell
Still Spell
Does this seem reasonable to everyone?
If you end up picking up 3 or more metamagic feats, I highly recommend Spell Perfection at 15th. It's power cannot be denied.
Attach it to fireball and suddenly you are lobbing a maximized fireball AND a quickened fireball every round until you run out of >3rd level spell slots. Heck, at 15th-level when you get the feat, you could potentially lob an empowered intensified maximized fireball (6th-level spell slot, avg 127.5 damage) and an intensified quickened fireball (4th-level spell slot, avg 52.5 damage).
That's an average of 180 damage to multiple enemies! Play a half-orc dragon disciple and you can tack on ~45 damage from alternate racial traits and class abilities on to that. Add in a trait that reduces metamagic cost by 1 and you can tack on even more metamagic to up the above numbers even higher (though you are getting pretty focused at this point).
And that's with what many consider to be a subpar spell. I'm sure you could find better combinations if you really bothered to look for them.
I myself play a 15th-level halfling sorcerer who has one-shotted CR 19 enemies with her heightened (+1) persistent flesh to stone spells (meaning the enemy takes the worst of two fortitude saves VS DC 35). She also blows past SR with her effective CL of 24.
You can't think of a reason to take metamagic feats with your arcane sorcerer? I can't think of a reason NOT to take them with my arcane sorcerer.
Spell perfection is a great feat -- it's not one I really see myself taking anytime soon.
If you are a sorcerer and you have those metamagic feats that is wonderful but you are unlikely to have the spell focus feats to really make it work. Also what spell do you attach it too? It's got to be something you want to do regularly allows a save throw and that you want to attach metamagic feats too -- late in the game as well.
If I was to grab it as a sorcerer I would take it for the dragon's breath spell. As a fourth level spell I love it since it gives me multiple area forms and can be different energy types. It allows a save throw and there are several metamagic feats with high level adjustments I would like to use with it already (widen, persistent, quicken) -- it's low enough level that I can attach these metamagic feats to it with spell perfection and still leave room for say intensify spell as well.
If you end up picking up 3 or more metamagic feats, I highly recommend Spell Perfection at 15th. It's power cannot be denied.
Attach it to fireball and suddenly you are lobbing a maximized fireball AND a quickened fireball every round until you run out of >3rd level spell slots. Heck, at 15th-level when you get the feat, you could potentially lob an empowered intensified maximized fireball (6th-level spell slot, avg 127.5 damage) and an intensified quickened fireball (4th-level spell slot, avg 52.5 damage).
That's an average of 180 damage to multiple enemies! Play a half-orc dragon disciple and you can tack on ~45 damage from alternate racial traits and class abilities on to that. Add in a trait that reduces metamagic cost by 1 and you can tack on even more metamagic to up the above numbers even higher (though you are getting pretty focused at this point).
And that's with what many consider to be a subpar spell. I'm sure you could find better combinations if you really bothered to look for them.
I myself play a 15th-level halfling sorcerer who has one-shotted CR 19 enemies with her heightened (+1) persistent flesh to stone spells (meaning the enemy takes the worst of two fortitude saves VS DC 35). She also blows past SR with her effective CL of 24.
You can't think of a reason to take metamagic feats with your arcane sorcerer? I can't think of a reason NOT to take them with my arcane sorcerer.
What trait lowers metamagic cost by 1?
What trait lowers metamagic cost by 1?If you end up picking up 3 or more metamagic feats, I highly recommend Spell Perfection at 15th. It's power cannot be denied.
Attach it to fireball and suddenly you are lobbing a maximized fireball AND a quickened fireball every round until you run out of >3rd level spell slots. Heck, at 15th-level when you get the feat, you could potentially lob an empowered intensified maximized fireball (6th-level spell slot, avg 127.5 damage) and an intensified quickened fireball (4th-level spell slot, avg 52.5 damage).
That's an average of 180 damage to multiple enemies! Play a half-orc dragon disciple and you can tack on ~45 damage from alternate racial traits and class abilities on to that. Add in a trait that reduces metamagic cost by 1 and you can tack on even more metamagic to up the above numbers even higher (though you are getting pretty focused at this point).
And that's with what many consider to be a subpar spell. I'm sure you could find better combinations if you really bothered to look for them.
I myself play a 15th-level halfling sorcerer who has one-shotted CR 19 enemies with her heightened (+1) persistent flesh to stone spells (meaning the enemy takes the worst of two fortitude saves VS DC 35). She also blows past SR with her effective CL of 24.
You can't think of a reason to take metamagic feats with your arcane sorcerer? I can't think of a reason NOT to take them with my arcane sorcerer.
Magical lineage.
Magical lineage.
Eh for one spell, I'll stick with Reactionary and Eastern Mysteries
I'm currently playing a Half Orc Brass Draconic Sorcerer. Yes, his stats are crazy, the DM insisted on rolling and I got an array of "OMG!".
I took Gifted Adept and Highlander for traits (Stealth and Perception are useful class skills), and the following feats:
Deepsight, Spell Focus [evocation], Elemental Spell [fire]. At 7th level, the bloodline feat will be Improved Initiative. The regular feat is something I'm still waffling on.
Right now my choices are Greater Spell Focus [evocation], Dazing Spell, Intensify Spell (this needs to be gotten at 7th or 9th), Elemental Spell [electricity], Lingering Spell and Extend Spell. At 8th level, I'm probably picking up Wall of Fire as my 4th level spell, and will eventually pick up Cone of Cold to get all the elements covered.
Note that as a 6th level Sorcerer, he's flinging 6d6 fireballs, plus 1d6 for Gifted Adept, plus 7 more points for Draconic bloodline, plus 3 more points for the Half-Orc Sorcerer ability for fire spells. That's a 7d6+10 fireball, or right around 34-37 points on average with a DC 21 Reflex save.
As the saying goes, that doesn't suck for a 6th level character.
Even with a point buy character, I'd have comparable Charisma. I wouldn't have the other insane abilities, but I'd have a comparable Charisma.
I took Elemental Spell [fire] because I like being able to convert other spells to damage types my combined bonuses go into. I'm not entirely sure I'll be taking Cone of Cold at 8th level because of this.