I read through the PF CR twice when I first got it (when it first came out), and have been playing with it's rules ever since. Recently, some problems with Sneak Attack have left me on the fence:
1.a) I thought Sneak Attack could be performed by Rogues to opponents they were flanking, but I just checked the SRD online and found nothing about that. Is this an error on my part to of allowed this?
1.b) If the Sneak Attack can indeed be performed on an opponent that is flanked, is each attack from the Rogue a Sneak Attack, or only the first attack? (i.e. a 6th level Rogue has 2-attacks per round, both get Sneeak Attack?)
1.c) How to missile attacks work with Sneak Attack? What I read into the SRD says a melee character MUST be next to the enemy being flanked, but in the example picture on the SRD, it shows a Sorcerrer ten feet back who is "Threatening" the enemy, thus flanking him. I ask this because my players will use a common tactic of having one of their members engage an enemy up close while two hang back about 15-30 feet on the opposite parrellel side shooting with crossbows. Technically, crossbows threaten up to their Range in distance, correct? My reading of the SRD makes it clear that only one enemy need engage in melee, and the others can be missile, caster, whatever. Is this a correct assumption?
2.a) If being flanked will not cause a Sneak Attack, then if the Rogues don't go first on Initiative, how does a Rogue get to Sneak attack other then using a Feint maneuver? The SRD says anytime an opponent is denied his Dexterity bonus to AC, but other than being flat-footed (which only happens on the first round), or helpless, I see no way of causing this.
2.b) And why would a Rogue even bother doing a Feint maneuver when a Feint maneuver is a two-step proccess giving you only one attack the following round, as opposed to three solid shots (via Rapid Shot) per round, which is potentially much more damage than a single sneak-attack?
2.c) If there is another method for getting a Sneak Attack I somehow missed where the target remains flatfooted for the entire round, does each of the Rogues attacks count as Sneak Attacks, or only the first one (same as question 1.b, except for other methods of Sneak Attack, such as Helpless condition)?
Thanks for all the help you guys have given me in the past! This community has been great for out game. Also, thanks for any and all replies ahead of time. Sorry I didn't do a Search first for this stuff, but I'm in a little bit of a time crunch and will check this when I get home.
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1.a) I thought Sneak Attack could be performed by Rogues to opponents they were flanking, but I just checked the SRD online and found nothing about that. Is this an error on my part to of allowed this?
Sneak attack occurs when the target of the attack is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. This commonly occurs when a target is flanked, but certain abilities can prevent flanking from imposing the "denied Dexterity" state.
1.b) If the Sneak Attack can indeed be performed on an opponent that is flanked, is each attack from the Rogue a Sneak Attack, or only the first attack? (i.e. a 6th level Rogue has 2-attacks per round, both get Sneeak Attack?)
Yes, each attack against an opponent that qualifies for sneak attack deals sneak attack damage. Remember though that the effect causing the target to lose its Dex bonus to AC *could* go away after the first attack (the rogue has an invisibility spell, for example).
1.c) How to missile attacks work with Sneak Attack?
Again, the target must be denied its Dex bonus to AC for sneak attack to function. With ranged weapons, this can be hard to pull off. Attacking from a hidden position or while invisible are common ranged-sneak-attack tactics.
Note also that only those characters that are actually flanking the target gain the benefit of a flank. Even if you're adjacent to and threatening a flanked target, unless you have a flanking partner, you gain no benefit.
Technically, crossbows threaten up to their Range in distance, correct?
No, only melee weapons threaten squares, and only into those squares you can reach. (There are also exceptions to this rule, such as the whip, and there are a handful of special abilities that allow you to "threaten at range" - that is, threaten with a ranged weapon - but those are the exception, not the rule.)
As to the rest, that's just advice on tactics that you'll figure out once you understand better how sneak attack works.
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a weapon that deals nonlethal damage (like a sap, whip, or an unarmed strike), a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment.
1a) First sentence of the second paragraph, "or when the rogue flanks her target." Flanking is the primary way in which most rogues gain sneak attack.
EDIT: It is important to note that flanking an opponent does not deny it dexterity to AC. There are two factors that can trigger sneak attacks, flanking or denying dexterity to AC. They are not synonymous.
1b) Also from the first sentence, "The rogue's attack deals damage any time" the conditions are met. (Emphasis mine.)
1c) Ranged weapons never threaten (unless there is specific mention that they do in their entry or due to a class ability). The way to get sneak attacks with a ranged weapon are to use the sniping rules found in the Stealth section.
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location.
If someone is unaware of your presence (via successful usage of Stealth), they are denied their dexterity to attacks from you, and are thus eligible for sneak attack.
2a) Not applicable.
2b) Feinting is an option for when rogues can't get flanking or the opponent to be denied their dex to AC. Feinting is a sad option until Improved Feint, allowing you to feint as a move action.
2c) There is some debate on how many attacks get sneak attack when coming out of regular invisibility, though the general RAW (rules as written) consensus is that you just get the sneak attack on your first attack. Using improved invisibility would let you full attack with sneak attack damage on each hit.
1.c) How to missile attacks work with Sneak Attack? What I read into the SRD says a melee character MUST be next to the enemy being flanked, but in the example picture on the SRD, it shows a Sorcerrer ten feet back who is "Threatening" the enemy, thus flanking him.
... What picture is this?
There's this picture which looks like the one you're talking about? But it has the caption
#3: The goblin and the ogre flank the sorcerer, as they can draw a line between them that passes through opposite sides of the sorcerer's square. If the ogre didn't have reach to the sorcerer, though, he and the goblin would not be flanking her.
Interesting. Thanks, that clears up a lot! It's funny, because I just read the SRD, but somehow missed all of that. I do still have a question however, if I may quote your quote:
Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
What does the part I bolded mean? If I'm reading that correctly, it says a Rogue can make a Sneak Attack only if within 30'. However, it does not mention threatening, so just to clarify, a Rogue CAN sneak attack with a ranged weapon within 30', however cannot do it from flanking because they do NOT threaten with a ranged weapon, correct?
EDIT: My players are really sad now that I've restricted their use of Sneak Attack with their crossbows. They say they might as well turn their halflings into melee and flank their foes for the Sneak Attack every hit, and I can't say I don't agree. There are plenty of feats where they can use their Dex instead of Str for their attack rate with melee weapons, and playing halflings as they are, it would be a funny sight! It's strange how in reality, crossbows as way deadlier in combat and actually revolutionized warfare. Oh well.
EDIT#2: Players trying to find a loophole found this: Pathfinder APG has a feat called Gang-up, which allows you to flank an opponent from any angle so long as two of your allies threaten that foe. From what it says in NORMAL, I'm thinking that is not how that feat was meant to be used (for missiles), but RAW, that is in fact what it says. Not sure if I'll allow it or not; I might make them find something better!
1c) Ranged weapons never threaten (unless there is specific mention that they do in their entry or due to a class ability). The way to get sneak attacks with a ranged weapon are to use the sniping rules found in the Stealth section.
Sniping: If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again....
Alright, almost done with the questions. Help me out with this one:
1) Rogue using an crossbow is invisible when he/she fires at his/her foe, but this Rogue gets three shots per round. The first shot is a Sneak Attack because the target is flat-footed, however it also makes the Rogue loose his/her invisibility, thus remaining two attacks are normal, non-sneak attack attacks?
2) Can a Rogue use Feint with a crossbow to cause a Sneak Attack, or is this restricted to melee weapons like flanking is?
1.c) How to missile attacks work with Sneak Attack? What I read into the SRD says a melee character MUST be next to the enemy being flanked, but in the example picture on the SRD, it shows a Sorcerrer ten feet back who is "Threatening" the enemy, thus flanking him.... What picture is this?
There's this picture which looks like the one you're talking about? But it has the caption
#3: The goblin and the ogre flank the sorcerer, as they can draw a line between them that passes through opposite sides of the sorcerer's square. If the ogre didn't have reach to the sorcerer, though, he and the goblin would not be flanking her.
Oh, silly me! I thought #3 was showing the sorcerer and the rogue flanking the ogre. Wow, is my face red!
I only skimmed this but flanking does not deny dex to AC.
Interesting. Thanks, that clears up a lot! It's funny, because I just read the SRD, but somehow missed all of that. I do still have a question however, if I may quote your quote:
What does the part I bolded mean? If I'm reading that correctly, it says a Rogue can make a Sneak Attack only if within 30'. However, it does not mention threatening, so just to clarify, a Rogue CAN sneak attack with a ranged weapon within 30', however cannot do it from flanking because they do NOT threaten with a ranged weapon, correct?Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
If you use the sniping rules or attack from invisibility or can otherwise find a creature denied its dexterity to AC, you can apply sneak attack damage to a ranged attack only if that creature is within 30 feet of the shooter.
Alright, almost done with the questions. Help me out with this one:
1) Rogue using an crossbow is invisible when he/she fires at his/her foe, but this Rogue gets three shots per round. The first shot is a Sneak Attack because the target is flat-footed, however it also makes the Rogue loose his/her invisibility, thus remaining two attacks are normal, non-sneak attack attacks?
2) Can a Rogue use Feint with a crossbow to cause a Sneak Attack, or is this restricted to melee weapons like flanking is?
1) Assuming they have a way of firing a crossbow more than once per round (repeating crossbow or the rapid reload feat), you are correct under the conventional reading of the rules.
2) Feint only works when you attack in melee.
Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent's base attack bonus + your opponent's Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent's Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
(Emphasis mine, from the Combat section of the PRD.)
The rules don't require you to be in melee combat against some or within a threatened area to use the feint maneuver, but the bonus from it only applies to your next melee attack.In regards to Gang Up, RAI (or the Word of God, of sorts) says that it doesn't work for ranged attacks. We allow it in my games, since ranged sneak attacks are just too hard to get otherwise. Mind you, we recognize this as a houserule since it is against the expressed word of either Sean or James.
Are your players new players? Because they have fallen into the worst trap in the game, ranged halfling thieves. Iconic but utterly miserable in combat. As you delve farther into the rules the worse it will be for them. Only a truly prodigious knowledge of the game and a bevvy of 3.5 splatbooks can save them now.
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Basically, you can sneak attack within 30 feet if you have conditions that allow you to sneak attack. At range, that basically means it's either the first round of combat and the rogue is acting before his target, or the rogue has managed to hide himself so his opponent doesn't know where he is.
The discrepancy between real life and the game is pretty big in some places. It's not so bad here, though. Actual archers had to spend years training with their bows. Crossbowmen didn't, so it became much easier to field them. You could end up with three or four times as many ranged combatants if you had crossbows.
Gang-up:
Basically, two of them will have to be in melee, using melee weapons. Everyone else, per raw, can be anywhere they want. It's a good rogue archer feat, but rogues still suffer from low attack bonuses which greatly reduces the average damage they deal.
While the voices of the game have given their opinion that the feat applies to melee only, it hasn't actually appeared in the errata yet and thus isn't an official change until it does.
Feinting is a standard action that only applies to melee attacks. You can find specifics on page 201 of the core rulebook.
Some things that might help your Halfling in the Pathfinder rules:
APG: Halfling Alternate Racial Trait: Swift as Shadows
Give up "sure-footed" to reduce Stealth penalties to moving by 5, and sniping by 10 (so only a -10 for trying to stay hidden).
APG: Rogue Talent: Sniper's Eye
Can sneak attack people with partial concealment (not full though).
APG: Advanced Rogue Talent: Stealthy Sniper
The penalty for sniping is only -10 instead of -20. Since this isn't a "reduction in penalty" but rather a change to -10, the halfling's ability to "reduce the penalty by -10" would appear to make this penalty completely gone.
Great for sniping at 10th level and higher!
APG: Rogue Archetypes: Sniper
Lots of benefits for long range attacking. Reduce penalties on far shot stuff.
Probably don't need the extending range of sneak attack since the next time...
APG: Magic Items: Sniper Goggles
Sneak attack at literally any range (yeah, even 1000' away). +2 damage per sneak attack die if you DO attack within 30'.
Then combine in core feats like Vital Strike, along with the APG spell gravity bow, and your small sized heavy crossbow is dealing 4d6 damage on your single attack.
Rapid Reload means you can do this each round. Deadly Aim if you can afford the hit to attack roll and you tack on some nice extra damage too.
Improved Vital Strike at 15th level for 6d6 crossbow strike, with +8d6 sneak attack damage, and any additional rider damage you can tack on (+6 deadly aim, any magical effects on your bolts or crossbow, etc).
Not too shabby for being completely hidden, at extreme ranges.
Kind of limited in close counters combat. Perhaps the Scout Rogue Archetype for "move 10' and get sneak attack" as an alternative option if you don't plan on playing on open fields.